Tongues???
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No, not the "tongue phenomenon". I've seen many videos of people doing just crazy things, yelling, jabbering, laughing uncontrollably (supposedly).... I do NOT believe those are Biblical.
I am not convinced one way or the other on a person's private "prayer language". If they believe it is of the Spirit, and are benefitting from it, then God bless them..
When it becomes a litmus test of whether a person is born again, no.
What is distressing to me is how this whole topic is being elevated to the status of a "salvation issue", when Paul himself said it was NOT one of the more important of the gifts.
I am not convinced one way or the other on a person's private "prayer language". If they believe it is of the Spirit, and are benefitting from it, then God bless them..
When it becomes a litmus test of whether a person is born again, no.
What is distressing to me is how this whole topic is being elevated to the status of a "salvation issue", when Paul himself said it was NOT one of the more important of the gifts.
I think that implies that the other Churches were not misusing or abusing TONGUES, nor were they confusing the pagan style of ecstatic utterances for genuine TONGUES. I think the major reason why the Church at Corinth was so easily confused is they were raised around those Mystery Religion Temples, and from Plato's excitement about it, labeling it "Divine Ectasy", I am quite sure, just like here, it generated a lot of heated debates with their neighbors; and the Greeks LOVED their Debates. I am sure comments like: "Well we have the genuine gift of Tongues, because we worship Christ." And they did not realize or even bother to do a comparison check like I did, discovering that the two were identical.
I am quite sure that the confusion got started when some ex-pagans, got converted and saw people speaking in genuine TONGUES, they chimed in, oh, I can do that too, because I learned it in the worship of Apollo (or one of the other nearby Mystery Religions. And like JESUS said, "A little leaven, leavens the whole lump."
Finding the link between the Pagan use of tongues and what the Corinthian Church was doing, is really quite easy these days. When I did my 6 month study back in the 80's, it meant I would spend hours in the Public library just searching for books that I wanted to check out. Now I just spent about 30 seconds on the Computer to find MORE than I found looking in the Public Library for hours. Here is one that caught my interest very quickly:
http://www.seeking4truth.com/tongues_corinth.html
Just reading it at a glance several comments jumped of the page, putting even more Red Flags on the Modern Day Charismatic thing.
"[FONT="]Religious ecstasy, particularly glossolalia, is found in the mystery religions or the religion of Apollo, rather than in Gnosticism as Bultmann and others have argued."
[/FONT]"[FONT="]The constant flux seen in the pantheon of Greek and Roman gods offered individuals little hope. People turned from thought to experience as the basis of religion, from rational content to emotional yearning."
[/FONT]"[FONT="]Three sources are the most probable candidates for the ecstatic phenomenon seen at Corinth: the Cybele-Attis cult, the Dionysian cult (both mystery religions), and the religion of Apollo."
[/FONT]"[FONT="]The worship of Cybele-Attis was accepted by the Greeks in approximately 200 B.C. The rites of this cult were extreme in nature. Priests who were stirred by clashing cymbals, loud drums, and screeching flutes, would at times dance in a frenzy of excitement, ..."
[/FONT]"[FONT="]Dionysus, the god of wine, became one of the most popular gods of the Greek pantheon. The pine tree became identified with him, and the Delphic oracle commanded the Corinthians to worship a particular pine tree out of which two images of the god were made. Hoyle describes the nature of this worship.
[/FONT][FONT="]Following the torches as they dipped and swayed in the darkness, they climbed mountain paths with head thrown back and eyes glazed, dancing to the beat of the drum which stirred their blood…. In the state of ekstasis or enqousiasmos, they abandoned themselves, dancing wildly…. and calling "Euoi!" At that moment of intense rapture they became identified with the god himself…. They became filled with his spirit and acquired divine powers."
"The third major cult that may have had influence on the Corinthians was that of Apollo. Several temples in Corinth were for the worship of Apollo, and the famous shrine at Delphi was primarily that of Apollo. The slave girl that Paul encountered in Philippi on the way to Corinth had a spirit of Python, or one inspired by Apollo. The ecstatic tongues-speaking of the oracle and the subsequent interpretation by the priest at Delphi are widely known. The cult of Apollo was widespread in Achaia, but especially around the temple of Delphi across from Corinth. This religion easily could have provided the kind of impetus for spiritual experience found in the Corinthian church.
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Greece had long experience of the utterances of the Pythian prophetess at Delphi and the enthusiastic invocations of the votaries of Dionysus. Hence Paul insists that it is not the phenomenon of "tongues" or prophesying in itself that gives evidence of the presence and activity of the Holy Spirit, but the actual content of the utterances.
[/FONT]
[FONT="]With the ecstacisrn of Dionysianism and the emphasis on tongues-speaking and oracles in the religion of Apollo, it is not surprising that some of the Corinthians carried these pagan ideas in the church at Corinth, especially the practice of glossolalia for which both of these religions are known (though the Dionysian cult did not include interpretation of the glossolalia as did that of Apollo) ."
So why are the Charismatics not finding this kind of information, and doing a serious self examination of their practices? Quite simply because they are NOT searching for it. They are FALSELY convinced that they do not need to do such a self examination, because the experience and the feelings identify it as coming from the Holy Spirit.
It appears they have forgotten:
2 Corinthians 5:7 (NIV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] We live by faith, not by sight.
[/FONT]
Told to? That's a weird way of looking at it. The Bible says to 'let the prophets speak two or three and let the other judge.' We are told to do that. We are told to 'despise not prophesyings.'
And if you'll read the Bible or think about what you've read, there are lots of prophecies about other people's lives. A few pop in my mind, like Samuel's prophecy about Eli, or that other prophet's prophecy about Eli, or the guy who prophesied about Jeroboam. (The prophet's name starts with an A.) Elijah and Elisha prophesied about individuals. Jeremiah did, too.
Agabus prophesied about Paul. Paul said that in every city the Spirit bore witness of the imprisonment and affliction that awaited him. The Spirit spoke regarding separating Barbabas and Saul to the work to which he had called them.
Timothy received a spiritual gift through a prophecy, and he was to recall prophecies that had been spoken about him so that by them, he might fight a good warfare.
In I Corinthians 14, Paul gives a hypothetical scenario about an unbeliever or unlearned person who goes into the assembly, and all prophesy, and the secrets of his heart are made manifest and he falls on his face and says that God is truly in/among them.
I'm sure there are lots of other examples. Prophets prophesied to the nation and to nations, about the nation and about nations, but there are many, many cases of prophets prophesying about individuals.
What I see is nonsense posted when posters either don't know the Bible or don't stop and think what the Bible says, combined with overconfidence in their own knowledge.
You can stay in that wooden box of 'theology' you are in where you think you have everything figured out. I'll stick with the Bible.
And if you'll read the Bible or think about what you've read, there are lots of prophecies about other people's lives. A few pop in my mind, like Samuel's prophecy about Eli, or that other prophet's prophecy about Eli, or the guy who prophesied about Jeroboam. (The prophet's name starts with an A.) Elijah and Elisha prophesied about individuals. Jeremiah did, too.
Agabus prophesied about Paul. Paul said that in every city the Spirit bore witness of the imprisonment and affliction that awaited him. The Spirit spoke regarding separating Barbabas and Saul to the work to which he had called them.
Timothy received a spiritual gift through a prophecy, and he was to recall prophecies that had been spoken about him so that by them, he might fight a good warfare.
In I Corinthians 14, Paul gives a hypothetical scenario about an unbeliever or unlearned person who goes into the assembly, and all prophesy, and the secrets of his heart are made manifest and he falls on his face and says that God is truly in/among them.
I'm sure there are lots of other examples. Prophets prophesied to the nation and to nations, about the nation and about nations, but there are many, many cases of prophets prophesying about individuals.
What I see is nonsense posted when posters either don't know the Bible or don't stop and think what the Bible says, combined with overconfidence in their own knowledge.
You can stay in that wooden box of 'theology' you are in where you think you have everything figured out. I'll stick with the Bible.
What is it about Polycarp, Papias, and Jude's sons dying is it that would make Paul's first century speech, thoughts, and understanding seem childish in comparison to his speech, thoughts, and understanding after these men died? What about these men dying makes Paul complete? Why would Paul see 'face to face' after Polycarp died? Why would Paul know fully after Papias died?
so even false beliefs are to be blessed?
beliefs that lead to (what I consider) sinful activity?
that's the thing - is it all harmless error? can error be harmless?
erroneous activity done in Christ's Name is innocent?
I don't believe so - do tongue-speakers KNOW WHAT THEY ARE SAYING? << if they don't how do they know their "language" is not communication with devils?
I used to get "a really good feeling" when indulging in substances, too....just because I say it makes me feel good doesn't make it right or true.
beliefs that lead to (what I consider) sinful activity?
that's the thing - is it all harmless error? can error be harmless?
erroneous activity done in Christ's Name is innocent?
I don't believe so - do tongue-speakers KNOW WHAT THEY ARE SAYING? << if they don't how do they know their "language" is not communication with devils?
I used to get "a really good feeling" when indulging in substances, too....just because I say it makes me feel good doesn't make it right or true.
Matthew 7
21Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.’
21Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.’
You know, I really hope God doesn't count these sort of comments as blaspheming the Holy Spirit. If you really believe the Bible, you should know from the text that Paul is talking about a genuine spiritual gifts. Look at I Corinthians 14:13. Let him who speaks in an unknown tongue, pray tha the may interpret.
If these were pagan utterances, why would Paul want the pagan utterances interpreted? How would the church be edified by some pagan utterance of the Dionysis cult?
And where does I Corinthians 12-14 indicate that the Corinthians were even speaking in an ecstacy? Is there even a single reference to ecstacy in the passage?
I read a post by a guy who apparently studied a lot about the Egyptian god Horus. He had this whole theory based on a reference to a Horite in Genesis, that Abraham was a Horite, which he interpreted as a Horus worshipper. He connected Abraham's marriage to Egyptian priestly marriage customs. The problem is, Horus was a false pagan god, one of the detestible gods of the Egyptians that Yahweh triumphed over with the plagues poured out on Egypt.
I see your posts and the source you quoted as the same sort of thing. You take something that is of god, and try to explain it as having origins in demonism and idolatry. That is a truly dark thing to do. It is wrong to do so.
It is wrong to describe a gift of the Spirit as coming from pagan sources, when you can read the Bible right in front of you and see that it is talking about a gift of the Spirit.
I can find all kinds of quotes about paganism. But that doesn't mean I interpret the Bible through paganism. I don't claim that Jesus is Tamuz. That would be blasphemy. The Bible speaks of Leviathan, but I would not equate God with Baal. This is the same kind of garbage you are doing with speaking in tongues in Corinth. There is no reference to pagan tongues. I Corinthians 14 deals with genuine tongues, encouraging the Corinthians to exercise the gift in an orderly manner with interpretation when in the assembly. There is no reference to a false gift in the entire passage. We shouldn't read a false pagan tongue into the passage any more than we should equate our Lord with some false god out of some false mythology. It's the same sort of thing.
Why would Paul spend so much time in I Corinthians laying out his case that tongues needed to be interpreted to edify the assembly if the tongues he was talking about were pagan? Do you realize how wicked idolatry is? How bad it is to have fellowship with demons? How could you attribute a spiritual gift, in the Bible, a gift Paul wants interpreted, to false gods? This is wickedness?
I urge you to repent.
If these were pagan utterances, why would Paul want the pagan utterances interpreted? How would the church be edified by some pagan utterance of the Dionysis cult?
And where does I Corinthians 12-14 indicate that the Corinthians were even speaking in an ecstacy? Is there even a single reference to ecstacy in the passage?
I read a post by a guy who apparently studied a lot about the Egyptian god Horus. He had this whole theory based on a reference to a Horite in Genesis, that Abraham was a Horite, which he interpreted as a Horus worshipper. He connected Abraham's marriage to Egyptian priestly marriage customs. The problem is, Horus was a false pagan god, one of the detestible gods of the Egyptians that Yahweh triumphed over with the plagues poured out on Egypt.
I see your posts and the source you quoted as the same sort of thing. You take something that is of god, and try to explain it as having origins in demonism and idolatry. That is a truly dark thing to do. It is wrong to do so.
It is wrong to describe a gift of the Spirit as coming from pagan sources, when you can read the Bible right in front of you and see that it is talking about a gift of the Spirit.
I can find all kinds of quotes about paganism. But that doesn't mean I interpret the Bible through paganism. I don't claim that Jesus is Tamuz. That would be blasphemy. The Bible speaks of Leviathan, but I would not equate God with Baal. This is the same kind of garbage you are doing with speaking in tongues in Corinth. There is no reference to pagan tongues. I Corinthians 14 deals with genuine tongues, encouraging the Corinthians to exercise the gift in an orderly manner with interpretation when in the assembly. There is no reference to a false gift in the entire passage. We shouldn't read a false pagan tongue into the passage any more than we should equate our Lord with some false god out of some false mythology. It's the same sort of thing.
Why would Paul spend so much time in I Corinthians laying out his case that tongues needed to be interpreted to edify the assembly if the tongues he was talking about were pagan? Do you realize how wicked idolatry is? How bad it is to have fellowship with demons? How could you attribute a spiritual gift, in the Bible, a gift Paul wants interpreted, to false gods? This is wickedness?
I urge you to repent.
Paul says if he prays in tongues, his spirit prays, but his understanding is unfruitful. So Paul did not know what he was saying either, unless he could interpret. Even though the understanding is unfruitful, Paul said of the one who blessed with the Spirit, 'thou verily giveth thanks well.' He didn't warn the man that he might be praying to the devil. Rather, he said, 'but the other is not edified.'
Nowhere in dealing with this issue does Paul attempt to instil fear into the Corinthians that they might be doing something demonic. There is no reference to fake tongues in his treatment of the issue, either. It is assumed and implied that the gift is genuine throughout the epistle. Paul wants the Corinthians to interpret if they speak in tongues, or else be silent in the assembly. But he is careful not to squash their enthusiasm for spiritual gifts while explaining this, and actually seeks to encourage their zeal for spiritual gifts.
Jesus asked if ye being evil know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? Another verse says give the Holy Ghost to them that ask Him.
Nowhere in dealing with this issue does Paul attempt to instil fear into the Corinthians that they might be doing something demonic. There is no reference to fake tongues in his treatment of the issue, either. It is assumed and implied that the gift is genuine throughout the epistle. Paul wants the Corinthians to interpret if they speak in tongues, or else be silent in the assembly. But he is careful not to squash their enthusiasm for spiritual gifts while explaining this, and actually seeks to encourage their zeal for spiritual gifts.
Jesus asked if ye being evil know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? Another verse says give the Holy Ghost to them that ask Him.
I'm not married to the idea that the corinths were uttering pagan tongues.
paul's admonitions work just fine when applied to actual recipients of the supernatural gift who did not also have to ability to interpret (translate the various languages).
if paul was given the gift of tongues - let's say he could suddenly speak french - if he didn't have the gift of interpreting the messages he was uttering, then HIS UNDERSTANDING WOULD BE UNFRUITFUL.
why is this hard?
paul's admonitions work just fine when applied to actual recipients of the supernatural gift who did not also have to ability to interpret (translate the various languages).
if paul was given the gift of tongues - let's say he could suddenly speak french - if he didn't have the gift of interpreting the messages he was uttering, then HIS UNDERSTANDING WOULD BE UNFRUITFUL.
why is this hard?
