What do you think it means that the "rest of the dead did not live again until after the 1000 year reign"
THE RAPTURE
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Who is lacking the "love of the truth?" Is Islam love? Do they have the truth? We know they have the "beast" of Rev 13, 16-19. Those who "accept the mark of the beast" which simply means they are numbered with the beast, are condemned. Other non believers still have a chance if they call upon the name of the Lord before He returns.
That's what lead me to think the first resurrection was spiritual. Otherwise it doesn't fit. Or, the only other thing I can think of is that just the martyrs return with Christ for revenge and the 1,000 year reign which would put the rest of the Believers and the unjust resurrecting at the end of the 1,000 years. I had that thought before since in the 1 Thes 4 resurrection it is God the Father doing the bringing of those asleep in Jesus. 1 Cor 15 says Christ must reign until He puts all enemies under His feet with the last enemy to be destroyed is death. Then He turns the kingdom over to the Father.
See the problem? Daniel and Lazarus rise on the Last Day. Coming down to get their bodies and returning to heaven before Israel is attacked serves no purpose. If they are going to come down before Israel is attacked, why not stay and help them out? Israel could use some super natural help when they are surrounded by hundreds of millions of Muslims bent on wiping them out.
Why would Christ return just before Israel is attacked, seeing the armies poised to attack and just leave again. This always bothered me. Eze 38 tells us God is furious with wrath at Gog attacking Israel and we know the Messiah comes to rescue Israel so why come, leave and wait until Israel is 2/3 wiped out before coming back? Why take the Church before Israel is attacked, the Church isn't even in this fight although some join Israel by intrigue proving some are still here.
The whole Pre-trib doctrine makes no logical sense and has nothing in scripture to locate it before Israel is attacked nor are two separate returns of the Lord found anywhere.
Whoever doesn't believe the GOSPEL sir.
And GOD in HIS GRACE still holds out "HIS SALVATION" while it is still the year of HIS FAVOR
G
GaryA
Guest
PlainWord:
Let me see if I can demonstrate something to you about what I like to call the 'grammar of the language'...
Consider this passage:
Revelation 20:
[SUP]4[/SUP] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [SUP]5[/SUP] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [SUP]6[/SUP] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Now -- take a good look at verse 4.
Is this verse saying that the 'beheaded' souls were the only souls present? No, it is not.
It says that he ( John ) saw them there. It does not say that they were the only ones there. He is merely pointing them out, and making a statement about them.
Now -- if they are the only ones there -- then, that leaves all of the rest of the saints until after the 1000 years. However, the 'grammar of the language' does not actually say that they are the only ones there.
Is this verse saying that those same souls were the only ones who would reign with Christ? No, it is not.
It says that they would reign with Christ. It does not say that nobody else would; it merely says that they would.
Now -- if they are the only ones who will reign with Christ -- then, well and good according to God's plan. He knows what He is doing. However, the 'grammar of the language' does not actually say that they are the only ones who will reign.
Now -- where it says 'on such the second death hath no power' in verse 6 -- it is not saying that that particular group of people are the only-ones-ever-in-existence on whom the second death hath no power. It is making a statement about that particular group of people - who have a special place in reigning with Christ.
Now -- take a good look at verse 5. The way the first part of verse 5 is worded places the last part of the verse as being pre-thousand-years. And, along with verse 6, it should be very clear that the first resurrection precedes the 1000-year reign of Christ. It is "plain as day" in verse 6 that the "reigning with Christ" comes after the first resurrection. ( "they shall be" and [ they ] "shall reign" )
Now, consider this -- no matter "when" this "first resurrection gathering" occurs ( And, all who will experience the first resurrection are included, and no one else - right? ) -- the 1000-year reign of Christ is STILL future! Do you see that? Are all of the souls who will live during that time going to end up lost? Of course not! In fact, we are led to believe that the absolute majority of them will be saved. When will their resurrection be? After the 1000 years.
People "go wrong" all the time while interpreting scripture ( especially prophecy ) because they often do not properly "read" what the verses are actually saying - as well as what they are not saying. MANY assumptions are made...
We have to be really careful to pay very close attention to what is being said - and not said.
God has the right to carry out His plan however he chooses. And, He apparently desires to have at least some of the saints reigning with Christ for 1000 years. If that means that more saints will be resurrected after the 1000 years, then so be it!
Keep studying. In time, I hope and pray that you will understand how that the 1000-year reign of Christ and the resurrections must be 'physical'. Do not "spiritualize" them - they are "real-world" physical events.
Being born-again involves His Spirit sealing our spirit. Resurrection involves the changing of the physical body.
Don't let the small details "throw you off" in your study of scripture. And, don't go about it with an "anti-pre-trib" mentality of any sort. Simply seek the truth for its own sake -- the rest will take care of itself...
"Have a wonderful day, my friend..."
Let me see if I can demonstrate something to you about what I like to call the 'grammar of the language'...
Consider this passage:
Revelation 20:
[SUP]4[/SUP] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [SUP]5[/SUP] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [SUP]6[/SUP] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Now -- take a good look at verse 4.
Is this verse saying that the 'beheaded' souls were the only souls present? No, it is not.
It says that he ( John ) saw them there. It does not say that they were the only ones there. He is merely pointing them out, and making a statement about them.
Now -- if they are the only ones there -- then, that leaves all of the rest of the saints until after the 1000 years. However, the 'grammar of the language' does not actually say that they are the only ones there.
Is this verse saying that those same souls were the only ones who would reign with Christ? No, it is not.
It says that they would reign with Christ. It does not say that nobody else would; it merely says that they would.
Now -- if they are the only ones who will reign with Christ -- then, well and good according to God's plan. He knows what He is doing. However, the 'grammar of the language' does not actually say that they are the only ones who will reign.
Now -- where it says 'on such the second death hath no power' in verse 6 -- it is not saying that that particular group of people are the only-ones-ever-in-existence on whom the second death hath no power. It is making a statement about that particular group of people - who have a special place in reigning with Christ.
Now -- take a good look at verse 5. The way the first part of verse 5 is worded places the last part of the verse as being pre-thousand-years. And, along with verse 6, it should be very clear that the first resurrection precedes the 1000-year reign of Christ. It is "plain as day" in verse 6 that the "reigning with Christ" comes after the first resurrection. ( "they shall be" and [ they ] "shall reign" )
Now, consider this -- no matter "when" this "first resurrection gathering" occurs ( And, all who will experience the first resurrection are included, and no one else - right? ) -- the 1000-year reign of Christ is STILL future! Do you see that? Are all of the souls who will live during that time going to end up lost? Of course not! In fact, we are led to believe that the absolute majority of them will be saved. When will their resurrection be? After the 1000 years.
People "go wrong" all the time while interpreting scripture ( especially prophecy ) because they often do not properly "read" what the verses are actually saying - as well as what they are not saying. MANY assumptions are made...
We have to be really careful to pay very close attention to what is being said - and not said.
God has the right to carry out His plan however he chooses. And, He apparently desires to have at least some of the saints reigning with Christ for 1000 years. If that means that more saints will be resurrected after the 1000 years, then so be it!
Keep studying. In time, I hope and pray that you will understand how that the 1000-year reign of Christ and the resurrections must be 'physical'. Do not "spiritualize" them - they are "real-world" physical events.
Being born-again involves His Spirit sealing our spirit. Resurrection involves the changing of the physical body.
Don't let the small details "throw you off" in your study of scripture. And, don't go about it with an "anti-pre-trib" mentality of any sort. Simply seek the truth for its own sake -- the rest will take care of itself...
"Have a wonderful day, my friend..."
PlainWord:
Let me see if I can demonstrate something to you about what I like to call the 'grammar of the language'...
Consider this passage:
Revelation 20:
[SUP]4[/SUP] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [SUP]5[/SUP] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [SUP]6[/SUP] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Now -- take a good look at verse 4.
Is this verse saying that the 'beheaded' souls were the only souls present? No, it is not.
It says that he ( John ) saw them there. It does not say that they were the only ones there. He is merely pointing them out, and making a statement about them.
Now -- if they are the only ones there -- then, that leaves all of the rest of the saints until after the 1000 years. However, the 'grammar of the language' does not actually say that they are the only ones there.
Is this verse saying that those same souls were the only ones who would reign with Christ? No, it is not.
It says that they would reign with Christ. It does not say that nobody else would; it merely says that they would.
Now -- if they are the only ones who will reign with Christ -- then, well and good according to God's plan. He knows what He is doing. However, the 'grammar of the language' does not actually say that they are the only ones who will reign.
Now -- where it says 'on such the second death hath no power' in verse 6 -- it is not saying that that particular group of people are the only-ones-ever-in-existence on whom the second death hath no power. It is making a statement about that particular group of people - who have a special place in reigning with Christ.
Now -- take a good look at verse 5. The way the first part of verse 5 is worded places the last part of the verse as being pre-thousand-years. And, along with verse 6, it should be very clear that the first resurrection precedes the 1000-year reign of Christ. It is "plain as day" in verse 6 that the "reigning with Christ" comes after the first resurrection. ( "they shall be" and [ they ] "shall reign" )
Now, consider this -- no matter "when" this "first resurrection gathering" occurs ( And, all who will experience the first resurrection are included, and no one else - right? ) -- the 1000-year reign of Christ is STILL future! Do you see that? Are all of the souls who will live during that time going to end up lost? Of course not! In fact, we are led to believe that the absolute majority of them will be saved. When will their resurrection be? After the 1000 years.
People "go wrong" all the time while interpreting scripture ( especially prophecy ) because they often do not properly "read" what the verses are actually saying - as well as what they are not saying. MANY assumptions are made...
We have to be really careful to pay very close attention to what is being said - and not said.
God has the right to carry out His plan however he chooses. And, He apparently desires to have at least some of the saints reigning with Christ for 1000 years. If that means that more saints will be resurrected after the 1000 years, then so be it!
Keep studying. In time, I hope and pray that you will understand how that the 1000-year reign of Christ and the resurrections must be 'physical'. Do not "spiritualize" them - they are "real-world" physical events.
Being born-again involves His Spirit sealing our spirit. Resurrection involves the changing of the physical body.
Don't let the small details "throw you off" in your study of scripture. And, don't go about it with an "anti-pre-trib" mentality of any sort. Simply seek the truth for its own sake -- the rest will take care of itself...
"Have a wonderful day, my friend..."
Gary,
You've given me much to think about. I really enjoy your posts and I've learned a lot from you. So, thank you!! I will take some time to digest but may have more questions. To me, the issue of the timing of the resurrection is key to many things. It is important for every Christian to comprehend this.
Muchas
That's certainly the broadest of interpretations. But was that the intent of the passage? I think not. I think it was far more narrow. You have to consider the context: Please see this sister:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition...
The deception in the above deals with the timing of the return of Christ, not the validity of the Gospel. The deception was about when "that day (DAY CHRIST WOULD RETURN) would happen." It was not about the Gospel.
Think about it, who are actually the ones being deceived about the timing of the return of Christ? Certainly you would never agree it is the pre-tribber so let's leave that alone. Who else? Who else is waiting for Messiah besides the Church and Israel? Who else believes that Jesus will return?
Did you know that in Islam, they believe there is a Jesus? Did you know that they are waiting for Him to return and that they believe He will help the Mahdi rid the world of all the Christians and Jews? The Muslims call Jesus "Isa." They think of Him as a prophet. But they think Jesus is on their side and will "set the record straight" so to speak. Now read on.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, [SUP]10 [/SUP]and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish...
What was the deception again? The timing of the Lord's return, and I would add, the identity of the Lord. You see, Satan's false Messiah (i.e. Jesus) returns before the real Jesus does. Those fooled will be mostly Muslims but plenty of others will be fooled, those not secure enough in the Word.
Those who accept the "mark" which are those numbered with the Beast, are pretty much toast. They are the ones who received the "strong delusion" concerning the love of the truth.
Those who have not received the mark, still have a chance. Make sense?
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Huh?? What? I can read and state what I read.
Try to put yourself in basic 5th grade English class and you're the teacher. You have the students read the text in blue then ask them some reading comprehension questions.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
Q: Who is bringing "those who sleep in Jesus?"
1. Jesus
2. God, the Father
3. None of the above
4. All of the Above
What answer is correct?
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout..
Q) Who is the "Lord Himself?"
1. Jesus
2. God, the Father
3. None of the above
4. All of the Above
Which is the correct answer?
"...and with the trumpet of God."
Q) Whose trumpet blew?
1. Jesus
2. God, the Father
3. None of the above
4. All of the Above
What answer is correct?
Q) Who is most likely to return with God's Trumpet?
1. Jesus
2. God, the Father
3. None of the above
4. All of the Above
What answer is correct?
Just saying. Don't count out other ideas that might not agree with yours. Some of us have been studying this stuff with earnest prayer and insight for decades. Don't come to a conclusions that we are stupid or weaker Believers.
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Well said, GaryA. It might be of interest, that the rapture of the Church, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28; 1 Thess.4:16-17 and in 2 Thess2:3 and 7-8, when Jesus takes all believers to heaven with Him, before the seven year tribulation begins, is the end of the Church age. The tribulation martyrs/saints do not belong to the Church. They are some of those left behind, when the Church was raptured, seven years before.
Prior to the resurrection of the Trib. saints, the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus will take place in heaven, while the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. Jesus will then return to the earth, WITH His Church, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in Rev.19:14. From where Jesus, and His armies from heaven will fight the battle of Armageddon, against the two beasts, the Antichrist, the False Prophet, and the ten horns/nations allied with them. The two beasts are thrown into the lake of fire and the armies of the ten nations allied with them are destroyed, ending the seven year tribulation, recorded in Rev.19:11-21. Satan is then thrown into the Abyss for 1,000 years, as recorded in Rev.20:1-3, [while Jesus reigns on earth for the same 1,000 years, recorded in Rev.20:6].
Then Jesus will administer to the first resurrection of the trib. saints, recorded in Rev.20:4. Followed immediately by Jesus reign on earth for 1,000 years, in verse 6.
There is more, but this post is already lengthy, so I'll end it at this point for now.
Quasar92
Prior to the resurrection of the Trib. saints, the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus will take place in heaven, while the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. Jesus will then return to the earth, WITH His Church, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in Rev.19:14. From where Jesus, and His armies from heaven will fight the battle of Armageddon, against the two beasts, the Antichrist, the False Prophet, and the ten horns/nations allied with them. The two beasts are thrown into the lake of fire and the armies of the ten nations allied with them are destroyed, ending the seven year tribulation, recorded in Rev.19:11-21. Satan is then thrown into the Abyss for 1,000 years, as recorded in Rev.20:1-3, [while Jesus reigns on earth for the same 1,000 years, recorded in Rev.20:6].
Then Jesus will administer to the first resurrection of the trib. saints, recorded in Rev.20:4. Followed immediately by Jesus reign on earth for 1,000 years, in verse 6.
There is more, but this post is already lengthy, so I'll end it at this point for now.
Quasar92
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G
GaryA
Guest
Thank you. And, perhaps better said than you realize...
(haha)Because, I have to disagree with a lot of what follows:
The first resurrection and the 'rapture' happen together - "back-to-back" - at the Second Coming of Christ.
Order of Events:
[TABLE="width: 600, align: left"]
[TR]
[TD] 34 A.D.
[/TD]
[TD]'Times of the Jews' ends; 'Times of the Gentiles' begins[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] 70 A.D.[/TD]
[TD]Abomination Of Desolation; Great Tribulation begins[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Dark Ages[/TD]
[TD]Christian Martyrs ( Revelation 6:9 - "souls under the altar" )[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] past~present~future[/TD]
[TD]Christian Martyrs ( Revelation 6:11 - "that should be killed as they were"; Includes next row. )[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Christian Martyrs ( Revelation 20:4 - beheaded for not worshipping the beast; huge scale murder )[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Great Tribulation ends; Two Witnesses begin their testimony[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Trumpet 1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Trumpet 2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Trumpet 3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Trumpet 4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Trumpet 5 - bottomless pit opened[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Trumpet 6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Witnesses Killed by "the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit" ( Revelation 11:7 )[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Witnesses Raised ( Revelation 11:11 )[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Heaven / Temple Opened ( Matthew 24:30; Revelation 11:19; Revelation 15:5; Revelation 19:11 )[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]JESUS ( Matthew 24:30 / Mark 13:26 / Luke 21:27; 1 Thessalonians 4:16; Revelation 14:14; Revelation 19:11-16 )[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Trumpet 7 ( Matthew 24:31/ Mark 13:27; 1 Thessalonians 4:16; Revelation 11:15 )[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Resurrection & Rapture ( Matthew 24:31 / Mark 13:27; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; Revelation 14:16 )[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Pre-Wrath ( Revelation 14:19; Revelation 15:6-8; Revelation 19:15-19 )[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Vial 1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Vial 2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Vial 3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Vial 4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Vial 5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Vial 6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Armageddon ( Isaiah 13:15-18; Zechariah 12:2,9-11; 14:1-2; Revelation 16:13-14,16 )[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Vial 7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Marriage Supper ( Revelation 19:21 )[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]1000-year reign of Christ begins[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Morning GaryA,
In Dan.9:27, the scripture states that he makes a covenant with many for one seven year period and in the middle of the seven years the abomination is set up.
In Matt.24:15, as part of Jesus response to the disciples question regarding the signs of his coming and the end of the age, Jesus quotes Dan.9:27 saying, "So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[SUP]a[/SUP] spoken of through the prophet Daniel." In keeping with answering the disciples question regarding those signs and the end of the age, Jesus mention of the abomination being set up would mark the middle of the seven years. Matt.24:29-32, which is Christ's return to the earth to end the age, takes place 3 1/2 years after the abomination is set up, which is also when He establishes His millennial kingdom.
All that said, how can you put the abomination being set up and the great tribulation taking place in 70 A.D.? The seven years is initiated by that ruler, the antichrist and he has yet to be revealed and therefore, the seven years could not have begun. Also, in Matt.24:15, Jesus identified the great tribulation as beginning from the time that the abomination is set up lasting until he returns to the earth 3 1/2 later. Since neither the prophecy regarding the abomination nor Christ's return to the earth to end the age has been fulfilled, how can you put these events as taking place in 70 A.D?
We're dealing with that unfulfilled last seven years here, not 2000 years. Also, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are in chronological order within that last seven years, but you have the seals beginning prior to the dark ages. I would also remind you that Jesus said that all of those signs would take place in the very last generation, the setting up of the abomination included. Below is how I have chronological order of end-time events:
* Jesus said that he would build his church and that is still currently in process
* The Lord descends from heaven and gathers the church, dead and living and takes us back to the Father's house
* The 1st seal is broken which is the revealing of that antichrist, the rider on the white horse
* The rest of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments continue throughout the entire seven years
* In the middle of the seven years, the abomination is set up causing the woman/Israel to flee out into the desert, which according to Matt.24:15-21 is when the great tribulation begins
* Sometime after the 7th bowl has been poured out, which completes God's wrath (Rev.15:1), Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom
* The Lord sends his angels out and they gather all who do evil and commit sin (one taken)
* The beast and the false prophet are captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire - Rev.19:20
* Satan is bound in the Abyss for a thousand years - Rev.20:1-3
* Those saints who died during the great tribulation are resurrected - Rev.20:4-6
* 1000 year reign of Christ
By the way, regarding "Marriage Supper ( Revelation 19:21 )." I'm sure that Rev.19:21 is a typo, because that is where all of those who are gathered at Armageddon are killed with the double-edged sword where the birds eat their flesh and there is nothing at all mentioned about the marriage supper in that verse. Where wedding does take place is in Rev.19:6-8, which is in heaven where the bride receives her robes of righteousness.
In Dan.9:27, the scripture states that he makes a covenant with many for one seven year period and in the middle of the seven years the abomination is set up.
In Matt.24:15, as part of Jesus response to the disciples question regarding the signs of his coming and the end of the age, Jesus quotes Dan.9:27 saying, "So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[SUP]a[/SUP] spoken of through the prophet Daniel." In keeping with answering the disciples question regarding those signs and the end of the age, Jesus mention of the abomination being set up would mark the middle of the seven years. Matt.24:29-32, which is Christ's return to the earth to end the age, takes place 3 1/2 years after the abomination is set up, which is also when He establishes His millennial kingdom.
All that said, how can you put the abomination being set up and the great tribulation taking place in 70 A.D.? The seven years is initiated by that ruler, the antichrist and he has yet to be revealed and therefore, the seven years could not have begun. Also, in Matt.24:15, Jesus identified the great tribulation as beginning from the time that the abomination is set up lasting until he returns to the earth 3 1/2 later. Since neither the prophecy regarding the abomination nor Christ's return to the earth to end the age has been fulfilled, how can you put these events as taking place in 70 A.D?
We're dealing with that unfulfilled last seven years here, not 2000 years. Also, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are in chronological order within that last seven years, but you have the seals beginning prior to the dark ages. I would also remind you that Jesus said that all of those signs would take place in the very last generation, the setting up of the abomination included. Below is how I have chronological order of end-time events:
* Jesus said that he would build his church and that is still currently in process
* The Lord descends from heaven and gathers the church, dead and living and takes us back to the Father's house
* The 1st seal is broken which is the revealing of that antichrist, the rider on the white horse
* The rest of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments continue throughout the entire seven years
* In the middle of the seven years, the abomination is set up causing the woman/Israel to flee out into the desert, which according to Matt.24:15-21 is when the great tribulation begins
* Sometime after the 7th bowl has been poured out, which completes God's wrath (Rev.15:1), Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom
* The Lord sends his angels out and they gather all who do evil and commit sin (one taken)
* The beast and the false prophet are captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire - Rev.19:20
* Satan is bound in the Abyss for a thousand years - Rev.20:1-3
* Those saints who died during the great tribulation are resurrected - Rev.20:4-6
* 1000 year reign of Christ
By the way, regarding "Marriage Supper ( Revelation 19:21 )." I'm sure that Rev.19:21 is a typo, because that is where all of those who are gathered at Armageddon are killed with the double-edged sword where the birds eat their flesh and there is nothing at all mentioned about the marriage supper in that verse. Where wedding does take place is in Rev.19:6-8, which is in heaven where the bride receives her robes of righteousness.
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G
GaryA
Guest
"Morning to you, too..."
Sorry brother -- and -- "no offense" -- but -- until you are able to "shed" the "mind-lock" that has you believing that Daniel 9:24-27 is talking about the Abomination of Desolation - and - that the three words 'he' in verse 27 are referring to [ anyone else but Christ ] - and - everything listed in verse 27 is [ anything other than the accomplishment of Christ ] - and - that there is a gap in the 70 weeks - and - that there is a seven-year tribulation period ( because of the erroneous interpretation of these verses ) -- ( "Did I forget anything?"
) -- you will - never, ever, ever - be able to properly understand the end-times scenario.Please give yourself an opportunity to discover that you have been taught error...
God is not "operating according to the confinement of the 'types' in the Jewish system"; rather, they are only the pattern - and a "foreshadowing" of the "real thing" --- which is not exactly like the pattern -- but, fits perfectly in the scope of God's plan...
For example, there will not be a wedding - or a wedding supper - like humans are used to seeing.
The 'resurrection & rapture' IS [ literally ] the Wedding.
What is described in Revelation 19:21 IS [ literally ] the Wedding Supper.
Revelation 19:
[SUP]9[/SUP] And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. . . . [SUP]17[/SUP] And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; [SUP]18[/SUP] That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. . . . [SUP]21[/SUP] And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
( Yes - it is all talking about the same thing. )
~
While I am at it -- I would like to say that there are things we agree on... Such as -- some of the things you have said in this thread regarding the 1000-year reign of Christ.
Having been where you are ( 'pre-trib' ) -- I understand perfectly the perspective and point of view. I was taught all of that stuff some time ago. However, I have since discovered - with a no-turning-back absolute certainty - that the "70th week of Daniel, 7-year tribulation, pre-trib rapture, antichrist treaty with Israel" idea is in severe error.
Please give yourself an opportunity to discover that you have been taught error...
"Have a nice day!"
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THAT's.....the love of THE TRUTH?
Can those who are waiting for their beloved BRIDEGROOM hide that truth from HIM?
a "virgin" waiting for her "husband" can not hide her love. And a "virgin" who has to run around in haste at the last hour makes evident that there was a lack of love
tje love of THE TRUTH is holding to the TESTIMONY of JESUS and keeping our garment from becoming defiled
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Whoever loves HIM and holds to the TESTIMONY of JESUS.
If today is still the day of HIS FAVOR (and according to both Isaiah 61 and Luke 4 it is) than the GOSPEL is still preached to ALL men (including muslims). And the possibility of one hearing THE GOSPEL and believing and being saved and washed by HIS BLOOD and marked as belonging to GOD still stands,correct?
therefore once again . "Do not say who will ascend or who will descend and Romans 10 is sufficient
Question:
who has thw the right to wash and mark whomeverY HE chooses by HIS SPIRIT:
a) you
b) me
c)JESUS
d) none of the above
What happened to Satan being let lose after the 1000 year reign? You didn't include that in your timeline sir and that is as a second harvest of the earth (before HE makes all things new) and also proof that no not all will be saved during the 1000 year reigning glory.
What it shows OWN is that man has no one to blame his rebellion on but his own iniquity
For Satan was bound for 1000 years and after coming out of a period of tribulstion to enjoy peace you would think people would remember and note the digference
but of course you are right GOD will do what HE will do and HE knows the end from the beginning
because it is true: one thousand years IS AS one day to God who can see already the end from the beginning and knows who belongs to HIM
Sorry sir. I am just reading the new posts and haven't had a chance to read yours.
i see however how he refers to revelation 20:4-6 but leaves out revelation 20:7 forward
This group "who did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death" are the saints who will be on earth during the tribulation/great tribulation period. In Rev.1:19, John was told to write what he had seen, what is now and what will take place later.
What you have seen:
What John had seen was everything from the time he was told to write back to the beginning of Rev.1.
What is now:
The "what is now" is represented by the letters to the seven churches, which represents the entire church period, which we are still in, i.e. we are still in the now.
What will take place later:
The what will take place later is what will take place after the now i.e. after the church period. To further support this, from Rev.1 thru the very end of chapter 3 only the word "Ekklesia" translated "church" is used in those first three chapters. From Rev.4 onward, only the word "Hagios" translated "Saints" is used and the word church is never seen again within the narrative of God's wrath. This is not a coincidence, but is God's clue demonstrating that the church is no longer on the earth.
Then in Rev.7:9-17, the reader is introduced to a group in white robes which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language, which makes them Gentiles. The elder asks John who they are. The fact that he is even asking this question demonstrates that they are not the church. To further support this group as not being the church, John tells the elder that he doesn't know who they are. The elder then tells John that these are those who have come out of the great tribulation and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. These are the same group who John sees in Rev.20:4-6 that will have been beheaded for their testimony for Jesus and the word of God and who will have not worshiped the beast, his image nor had received his mark.
Their works that follow them, is their keeping the testimony of Jesus and the word of God and who will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark, even at the expense of their own lives.