P
popeye
Guest
we receive salvation at conversion.
Arriving in heaven is the goal. That is "saved"
The 2exist simultaneously.
Again,the wedding /supper is the prism.
With out that prism we will enjoy partial revelation.
THE RAPTURE
- Thread starter Wall
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Arriving in heaven is the goal. That is "saved"
The 2exist simultaneously.
Again,the wedding /supper is the prism.
With out that prism we will enjoy partial revelation.
P
popeye
Guest
The book of Ruth is the gentile bride.
VIVID DEPICTION.
The climax to the story is the earth redeemed,and the marriage.
..nothing to do with tribulation. That dimension is missing in the story
VIVID DEPICTION.
The climax to the story is the earth redeemed,and the marriage.
..nothing to do with tribulation. That dimension is missing in the story
Last edited:
In this world you will have trouble. But we know though HE delay. HE has overcome the worldrld
so HIS BRIDE waits
P
popeye
Guest
AH,
BECAUSE I FIGURED IT OUT (I think). LONG POST BUT IT SOLVES EVERYTHING!!
The context comes from 1 Cor 15. So much confusion. I admit, I went back and forth on this issue a million times before finally sorting it out. You see, I have no agenda, I am simply looking for the truth and there is only one truth, one version of all of this that is true in this complex study.
Before I explain, let me point out that it doesn't say that the souls who were beheaded that John saw, came back to life. The original text and the KJV does not say that!! Some newer translations do because they were just as confused as we were so they wrote what they thought John meant.
John clearly IDs them as souls and the only souls we are ever shown are in heaven, once they leave the body. You cannot see souls in a living body. Here is the KJV text, which is the most accurate, most of the time.
"...and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [SUP]5 [/SUP]But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."
The first resurrection is referring back to the souls living and reigning in heaven.
John saw SOULS who were alive and reigning with Christ for 1,000 years in heaven. HERE'S THE IMPORTANT PART: The rest of dead didn't live again until the 1,000 years were finished. I believe the rest of the dead refers to unbelievers and not believers who were not martyred.
So, why does John only mention the "BEHEADED SAINTS" and not all souls in heaven? It is because these souls were killed by the BEAST who is made up by Muslims worshiping Islam. Of all religions, only Islam specifically teaches to cut off the heads of the Infedels. This beast is discussed throughout Revelation, even though the Beast didn't even exist at the time John wrote it.
The Beast was the Ottoman Empire and they were beheading Christians and killing them from as early as the 1000s AD and before. So John is teaching that these Christians in heaven WON. They are alive. Those who killed them have long ago died off and will not come back to life until the second resurrection, 1,000 years or so later.
Let's turn to 1 Cor 15 but we will pick it up a little earlier than usual. This just clicked to me yesterday, even though I read it 100 times.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
This is saying that Christ AND ONLY CHRIST, was the firstfruits of EVERYONE that is asleep or physically dead. Some people awoke, true because the power of Christ resurrection was so great. They did not go to heaven with Christ so as far as we know, they simply died again.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Death came from Adam. But through the Son of Man came the resurrection of those who died. See the contrast?
MAN = DEATH
CHRIST = LIFE
Here comes the fun part:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
The "every man" is Adam and all of who are mortals who died or will have died. Christ is just Christ. In Christ ALL SHALL BE MADE ALIVE, not just believers but non believers too. Therefore there are no parts to the resurrection. There is Christ back in 27-33 AD then there is everyone else (believer and unbeliever alike) when He returns as we are told THREE TIMES!!! There is no passage that teaches a separate resurrection for any group of people. It is ALWAYS the just with the unjust, etc.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
The only difference in the second resurrection is that one group goes to heaven (new Jerusalem) while the other group has a different destination. Three passages all giving the same message.
As shown a million times, especially in John 6, this happens on the last day. No text says, "the last day before the Great Tribulation." Last in this case, really is last. If there is only one resurrection for mankind for both good and bad, then it really does need to be on the final day of the old earth, AFTER the Great Tribulation (attack on Israel).
Now Rev 20 comes into clarity. John indeed is using a few metaphors here, as he does throughout the book.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
That means the above battle, referring to Gog and Magog, is the same group who attacks Israel in Eze 38 which is the Great Tribulation. So Satan is indeed leading Islam against Israel at the end and God finishes it. This is the 6th Trumpet. This is where God kills a third of mankind. The only group with a false religion big enough to equal 1/3 of mankind is either Christianity or Islam.
BECAUSE I FIGURED IT OUT (I think). LONG POST BUT IT SOLVES EVERYTHING!!
The context comes from 1 Cor 15. So much confusion. I admit, I went back and forth on this issue a million times before finally sorting it out. You see, I have no agenda, I am simply looking for the truth and there is only one truth, one version of all of this that is true in this complex study.
Before I explain, let me point out that it doesn't say that the souls who were beheaded that John saw, came back to life. The original text and the KJV does not say that!! Some newer translations do because they were just as confused as we were so they wrote what they thought John meant.
John clearly IDs them as souls and the only souls we are ever shown are in heaven, once they leave the body. You cannot see souls in a living body. Here is the KJV text, which is the most accurate, most of the time.
"...and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [SUP]5 [/SUP]But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."
The first resurrection is referring back to the souls living and reigning in heaven.
John saw SOULS who were alive and reigning with Christ for 1,000 years in heaven. HERE'S THE IMPORTANT PART: The rest of dead didn't live again until the 1,000 years were finished. I believe the rest of the dead refers to unbelievers and not believers who were not martyred.
So, why does John only mention the "BEHEADED SAINTS" and not all souls in heaven? It is because these souls were killed by the BEAST who is made up by Muslims worshiping Islam. Of all religions, only Islam specifically teaches to cut off the heads of the Infedels. This beast is discussed throughout Revelation, even though the Beast didn't even exist at the time John wrote it.
The Beast was the Ottoman Empire and they were beheading Christians and killing them from as early as the 1000s AD and before. So John is teaching that these Christians in heaven WON. They are alive. Those who killed them have long ago died off and will not come back to life until the second resurrection, 1,000 years or so later.
Let's turn to 1 Cor 15 but we will pick it up a little earlier than usual. This just clicked to me yesterday, even though I read it 100 times.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
This is saying that Christ AND ONLY CHRIST, was the firstfruits of EVERYONE that is asleep or physically dead. Some people awoke, true because the power of Christ resurrection was so great. They did not go to heaven with Christ so as far as we know, they simply died again.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Death came from Adam. But through the Son of Man came the resurrection of those who died. See the contrast?
MAN = DEATH
CHRIST = LIFE
Here comes the fun part:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
The "every man" is Adam and all of who are mortals who died or will have died. Christ is just Christ. In Christ ALL SHALL BE MADE ALIVE, not just believers but non believers too. Therefore there are no parts to the resurrection. There is Christ back in 27-33 AD then there is everyone else (believer and unbeliever alike) when He returns as we are told THREE TIMES!!! There is no passage that teaches a separate resurrection for any group of people. It is ALWAYS the just with the unjust, etc.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
The only difference in the second resurrection is that one group goes to heaven (new Jerusalem) while the other group has a different destination. Three passages all giving the same message.
As shown a million times, especially in John 6, this happens on the last day. No text says, "the last day before the Great Tribulation." Last in this case, really is last. If there is only one resurrection for mankind for both good and bad, then it really does need to be on the final day of the old earth, AFTER the Great Tribulation (attack on Israel).
Now Rev 20 comes into clarity. John indeed is using a few metaphors here, as he does throughout the book.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
That means the above battle, referring to Gog and Magog, is the same group who attacks Israel in Eze 38 which is the Great Tribulation. So Satan is indeed leading Islam against Israel at the end and God finishes it. This is the 6th Trumpet. This is where God kills a third of mankind. The only group with a false religion big enough to equal 1/3 of mankind is either Christianity or Islam.
Last edited:
You are only talking about those still alive and remaining when Christ returns. There are far more in heaven who have died and are seeing Christ every day. Those in heaven, along with us on earth, are "spiritually alive and reigning with Him."
“The kingdom of God does not come with observation; [SUP]21 [/SUP]nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”
The Rapture just gets us altogether. It is at the Rapture on the Last day that the living mortals are changed and meet up with all the souls in heaven who have come back to get their new bodies while the living have their bodies changed on the fly, so to speak.
You can't have the wedding until the Bride is all together. All Christians are the bride. There are none saved who are not part of the Bride and there is only one wedding. Thanks for pointing this out.
Correct. The Great Tribulation starts 45 days earlier. So apparently there can't be a rapture before day 1335 or those guys would have been left behind and not blessed. They are blessed also because they kept their garments. They remained clothed in the whole armor as Paul teaches and were not deceived by the antichrist.
Plain word
what does it mean that HE will not allow HIS HOLY ONE to see decay nor will HE abandon my soul to the grave
Will your body decay?
is absent from the body present with THE LORD?
and if so then these are already reigning with HIM in heaven?
Then why are they asking the LORD, (as they remain under the altar) "how long oh SOVEREIGN LORD til you avenge our deaths and put an end to all who destroy the earth"
and why why are these souls given a garment and told to wait until the number of those who will die as they did should be complete?
what does it mean that HE will not allow HIS HOLY ONE to see decay nor will HE abandon my soul to the grave
Will your body decay?
is absent from the body present with THE LORD?
and if so then these are already reigning with HIM in heaven?
Then why are they asking the LORD, (as they remain under the altar) "how long oh SOVEREIGN LORD til you avenge our deaths and put an end to all who destroy the earth"
and why why are these souls given a garment and told to wait until the number of those who will die as they did should be complete?
All excellent questions!!
The "Holy One" is Jesus. God will not allow Jesus' soul to remain in Hades (the correct interpretation). When Jesus died, His soul went to Hades and He ministered to the souls which were "captive" in Hades. Those who believed in Him, those souls were take from Hades and brought to Heaven when Christ resurrected from the grave. Until the Cross and Christ's resurrection, there wasn't a way to Heaven. Jesus was physically dead just 3 days so there wasn't time for decay. The rest of us, our bodies will decay before they are resurrected.
Yes, all dead believers have their souls in heaven ALIVE and REIGNING with Christ. Since the Lord is sitting at the right hand of the Father, they are in heaven reigning with Him in heaven. While on earth, as a Christian, we have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit so we are also with Him, so to speak, now.
Acts 1 shows us the scene of Jesus being taken back to heaven escorted by the "cloud(s)" of heaven. The heavens opened and the disciples saw it. I believe these "clouds" were angels. Normal clouds do not take people anywhere.
Acts 1:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, [SUP]11 [/SUP]who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”
You see they literally saw Jesus go into heaven. This means heaven is close to us, in a different invisible dimension. A regular fluffy white cloud doesn't do this. So when Jesus returns with "Clouds of Heaven" it means He returns with His army of Angels.
Dan 7 picks up the scene. Daniel sees the other half of this event taking place in heaven.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]“I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed.
When Christ returned to heaven He was given a heroes welcome. He had just saved the world, after all. When we die, if we are saved, we get our crown to reign too as taught in Rev 2:
...Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
and in James 1:
Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
This passage is discussing the 50 million Christians martyred since Christ. More will join them and are joining them every day, especially in the middle east. They want their deaths avenged. God will avenge them but they have to wait until all of those who will be martyred are martyred. Then at the Day of the Lord, they will be avenged as God "pours" His wrath out upon them.
You see the "Beast" in Revelation carrying the Harlot is the Islamic Caliphate.
Propelled by their new Islamic faith, in the 7th and 8th centuries Arab armies created one of the largest empires known to world history.
The Arab word caliph (or khalifah) means “successor”. This refers to the fact that, after the death of Muhammed, the rulers of the Islamic community were the "successors of the prophet”. They presided over dramatic conquests which brought into being a vast empire. This empire is known to history as the Caliphate; during it, a distinctly Islamic civilization emerged in the Middle East, North Africa and beyond.
Rev 13 shows a 7 headed Beast supporting a Harlot or false religion. One of the heads is wounded but comes back to life. This head was the Ottoman Empire and it appeared dead following WW2 in 1922 when the Empire, the largest the world had ever seen, was divided. This was the only empire of its size who would kill everyone who would not convert to their official religion. You could not own a business and conduct commerce (buy or sell) in the Ottoman Empire unless you swore allegiance to them.
This evil empire follows a false prophet (his teachings), has a false Bible (the Qur'an) and has a false god, Allah. This religion has deceived more people than any other religion in history. They have also killed more Christians than any other religion in history including 3 million Armenian Christians in a brief period in the early 1900s.
On June 29, 2014 ISIS officially declared themselves to be the final Caliphate. Whether or not they are the final "beast" is yet to be seen but they are in the right place doing the right things to qualify. ISIS stands for Islamic State of Iraq and Syria. But, Obama calls them ISIL which means Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. The Levant covers a much bigger section of the entire eastern Med including all of Israel. Why would Obama give them land they don't have yet?
ISIS or ISIL has killed over 15,000 Christians so far and many have fled. They have told Israel that they will come down there and kill them all. No world power has yet been able to stop them. Other Muslims are watching and marveling. In Islam, they are waiting for the Mahdi who will rid the world of the infidels and set up a one-world Islamic government. They are waiting for a spiritual figure to lead them and rid the world of Israel. Sound familiar?
Last edited:
P
popeye
Guest
10 [FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]The patriarchs ended up in paradise after death.[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]The rich man and lazarus.[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Rich man went to hell[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Lazarus went to paradise.[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Jesus took the patriarchs to heaven on his resurrection.[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]You can look it up.[/FONT]
Luke 21:24 "they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."
How close is Jerusalem to becoming in the hands of the Jewish people and out of the hands of the Gentiles? Right now it is 50/50.
How close is Jerusalem to becoming in the hands of the Jewish people and out of the hands of the Gentiles? Right now it is 50/50.
The time of the Gentiles hasn't even started yet. The attack on Israel (AKA Great Tribulation) has yet to happen. Once they are led away captive, then we have the Time of the Gentiles. Then we have the Wrath and Day of the Lord, then we have the re-gathering at the Return of Jesus "following the Tribulation of those days."
IfGOD is calling his craftsmen to restrict the OUTER COURTS to the gentiles for them to trample on but restricting the inner court than theses particular Gentiles time is up
they will NOT be saved
P