THE RAPTURE

[Yet]

In Matt 24 the greek for taken is 'received'. In Luke 17 the greek for taken is seized. Two different events.
The first are the faithful caught up, received by Christ. The second are those unfaithfull without oil left behind and then seized by authorities.
Luke 22 ...that you may be counted worthy to ESCAPE all these things that will come to pass....
Escape:fled out, to flee from. Sounds like 'to take flight'......upward.

Just random thoughts.

 

[God4me]

I think people are too obsessed with the last days. When we stand before God we wont be judged on our eschatological views but how we lived our lives.

Because the Bible teaches the pre trib rapture, we should believe it, so you might have to give an account for not beliving the Bible, or for not knowing it.

 

[God4me]

Jesus makes clear in the Olivet Discourse:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.

"By all nations" is key. We were not hated by all nations at any time in the past as many nations were predominately Christian nations. It could be argued that this is rapidly becoming not the case now.

John shows us in Rev 7, a Great Multitude of believers who were killed and in heaven. He goes on to tell us in Rev 12 and 13 that war is waged against Christians. Those with the testimony of Jesus can only be Christians.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.

In Daniel 7 we are told that the Saints are under attack until the Ancient of Days comes.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]“I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, [SUP]22 [/SUP]until the Ancient of Days came...

It is pretty clear that the Church will be slaughtered in large numbers before the Great Tribulation of Israel.

In 1 Thes 4 Paul makes clear:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Notice that? It is only those who are still alive and remaining who are caught up. Therefore there will be many who don't make it. Sadly most Christians will be dead and return with the Father at the Day of the Lord.

Nowhere are we taught that the Church is raptured before the Great Tribulation. Nowhere are we taught that during the End Times, the Church is immune from Satan's attack. The opposite is taught as I've shown above.

Nowhere does the Bible say the Church goes through the tribulation period.
The Jews and the back sliders will go through the tribulation period.
We need to know when Jesus is talking to the elect Jews, and when He is talking to the elect Church.
Jesus tells us that we can escape the tribulation period, and we AREN'T appointed to wrath, ( And tell tribulation period is the wrath of satan and the wrath of God ).

I cannot understand why people want to tribute, when Jesus said we won't go through it.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello Angela,

The biggest problem with the rapture view, is that it has been pushed by popular fiction books in the media and horrendous hype about getting "Left Behind!"

Those who don't understand end-time events will always respond to the above, as if that is where those who study end-time events got our information from. Yet, where you say that the resurrection of the dead and the living being changed and caught up (rapture) is not in the word of God, I can read right in scripture.

people need to know what the Greek says, in passages like 1 Thess. 4:17, where the word some people take for a rapture, is actually talking about meeting and returning. To earth. With Jesus.

Please show us where scripture states that after believers are caught up to meet the Lord in the air, that we come right back down to the earth. Better yet, scripture states that Jesus told his disciples and therefore all believers, that he was going to His Father's house, which could only be heaven, to prepare dwelling places for us and that he would come back and take us to be with Him, which again would be to those dwelling places in the Father's house. 1 Cor.15:51-52 and 1 Thes.4:13-17 are the details of John 14:1-3 when He appears to gather us and it is not to return to the earth, but to take us back to the Father's house.

One of major problems with those who don't understand this teaching is because of the lack of understanding that the time of God's wrath is coming. A time which is unprecedented and of which the world has never experienced. This is one of the major reasons for our being gathered i.e. to remove the living church prior to God's wrath being poured out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. By the time these judgments have been completed during that last seven years, over 90% of the worlds population will be decimated and all human government will have been dismantled. Unfortunately, there are many professing Christians who do not understand the severity and magnitude of the coming wrath. For if they did, they would not be proclaiming that the church must go through the time of God's wrath. With just the 4th seal and 6th trumpet combined, a fourth and a third, respectively, they total up to approximately 4.5 billion fatalities and that is not including the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1, 2 & 3 nor from the bowl judgments.

Another error is the lack of understanding the that the event of the Lord appearing to remove the church and the Lord's return to the earth to end the age are two different events. The problem being that they have made these two events synonymous which produces every error from then on. For to claim that 1 Thes.4:13-17 takes place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age would be to put the church through the entire wrath of God. Regarding this, scripture states that the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath (1 Thes.5:9) and that Jesus has rescued us from the coming wrath (1 Thes.1:10). Therefore, those who claim that the church will go through God's wrath are not paying any attention to the promises listed above, but are ignoring or circumventing them. Consequently and contrary to what Paul said, there would be no comfort nor would it be a blessed hope, if the church was to go through the wrath of God.

Revelation 19:1-19 is a detailed account of the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. Within that scripture, the bride/church is already revealed as being in heaven as she is receiving her white clothing, fine and clean as seen in Rev.19:6-9. And then she is seen following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing the white clothing that she will have just received. Rev.17:14 also supports this in that, those who are with the Lord when he returns are said to be His "called, chosen and faithful followers" which could only be referring to the church.

I pray that God will open yours and everyone elses eyes to these truths Angela, for the Lord is coming to gather His church and that prior the pouring out of His wrath which is about to take place.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Before 1830, you can find no mention of the Rapture Doctrine.

How about the first century? Because I get the teaching regarding Christ's appearing to gather the church from Paul who got it directly from the Lord. In reference to 1830, you are just repeating what you have heard other people use as an apologetic. Scofield and others is not where we are getting this information from.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Oh, I forgot to mention that you must backup to verse 13 and pick up the subject:


Where are the dead. Ecclesiastes 12:6-7 answers that for you


6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


Also, 2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Hello EarsToHear,

At the time of death, scripture states that the believers spirit/soul departs from the body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord, which is one of the scriptures that you have listed above. This departure of the spirit/soul is not the resurrection. The resurrection always and only has to do with the body. For the word "Anastasis" translated "Resurrection" properly means to "stand up again" in the same body that died. Jesus is an example of this, for he reentered His body after three days and was seen by many. Below is the definition of the "Anastasis."

========================================

386 anástasis (from 303 /aná, "up, again" and 2476 /hístēmi, "to stand") – literally, "stand up" (or "stand again"), referring to physical resurrection (of the body).

Christ's physical resurrection is the foundation of Christianity, which also guarantees the future resurrection of all believers (see Jn 6:39,40,44).

[386 /anástasis ("resurrection") refers to the physical, bodily resurrection of Christ – and people (both of the redeemed and the unredeemed).]

==========================================

Here is what is going to happen according to scripture: at the time that the Lord appears in the air to gather the church, according to 1 Thes.3:13 and 1 Thes.4:14, the Lord is going to bring with him all of the spirits/souls of those who will have died in him, where they will be reunited with their resurrected bodies. Immediately after that-- in Nano second-- those in Christ who are still alive will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with those who will have just previously resurrected to meet the Lord in the air. Where at that time, according to John 14:1-3, the Lord will take the entire group back to the Father's house to those dwelling places that he prepared for us.

 

[Blain]

Because the Bible teaches the pre trib rapture, we should believe it, so you might have to give an account for not beliving the Bible, or for not knowing it.

Actually this is not true the bible teaches more than the pretrib rapture it's all based on our own beliefs and our own interpretation of the scriptures. Believe me I used to be like you I was a very hard core rapture believer not just a rapture believer but a pre trib rapture believe me you could never waver me from my belief in the pretrib rapture no matter what scriptures you showed me.

But as I said after I became to spiritually worn out to even think of the rapture things changed, I no longer had an opinion of the timing of it regardless if it's pre trib pre wrath mid trib or post trib however the blessing of this was I was able to see all four beliefs in the bible instead of only the pretrib. It's amazing how the scriptures really open up when we don't go into the scriptures with our own views and own beliefs set in stone

 

[Ahwatukee]

Believe me I used to be like you I was a very hard core rapture believer not just a rapture believer but a pre trib rapture believe me you could never waver me from my belief in the pretrib rapture no matter what scriptures you showed me.

Does the information that the Holy Spirit provides change? I have studied scripture for over 40 years and the Holy Spirit lead me to the study of end-time events. Regarding this, I have never changed my position regarding what the Holy Spirit has taught me regarding the gathering of the church. By changing your position you could not have received this information from the Spirit, else it would remain the same. Furthermore, just because you have changed your position does not mean that it is correct.

We who study end-time events have not become worn out, but become more and more excited as we see the end-time events continue to line up. As I continue to proclaim according to scripture, in between where we are right now till the time that the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom, lies the wrath of God. Regarding this, Scripture is clear that the church cannot and will not go through this time of wrath (1 Thes.1:10, 5:9 & Rev.3:10). Do you think that God is going to pour out the wrath upon His Son that we deserve and then send those who believe in Him through His wrath anyway?! If you do, you have no understanding of the nature of God. For anyone who believes that, they need to do a study on whom God's wrath is being poured out on and understand that all of the inhabitants of the earth will be exposed to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, with nowhere to hide. It always seems to be that those who don't study end-time events are always the ones who are opposed to those who have studied and continue to study it.


Those of us who know that believers are not appointed to suffer the coming wrath and who watch longingly as the stage is being set for the time of the antichrist, become more and more excited because we know that our Lord will appear and gather the church prior to that time of wrath, which will be running concurrently with the beasts kingdom and that entire seven years. These are not our own views, but are God given through the word of God and the Holy Spirit.

"But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come."

 

[rdbseekingafterhim]

I see it as two different events. Now I may be wrong, but I see the believers we have now get called up. All unbelievers have to go through the tribulation if you receive Jesus in the tribulation then you get called up separately to be saved from the worst of the tribulation. Now this is just a theory I thought of during my reading of scripture. I may be wrong in it but to me it makes sense.

 

[Willie-T]

I see it as two different events. Now I may be wrong, but I see the believers we have now get called up. All unbelievers have to go through the tribulation if you receive Jesus in the tribulation then you get called up separately to be saved from the worst of the tribulation. Now this is just a theory I thought of during my reading of scripture. I may be wrong in it but to me it makes sense.

It makes as much sense as any of the other theories of a "rapture."

 

[Ahwatukee]

I see it as two different events. Now I may be wrong, but I see the believers we have now get called up. All unbelievers have to go through the tribulation if you receive Jesus in the tribulation then you get called up separately to be saved from the worst of the tribulation. Now this is just a theory I thought of during my reading of scripture. I may be wrong in it but to me it makes sense.

Hello rdbseekingafterhim,

Just FYI, those who become believers after the gathering of the church and during that time of wrath, are the great tribulation saints introduced in Rev.7:9-17. And the time in which they are resurrected is recorded in Rev.20:4-6. Many people make the error of making this resurrection synonymous with the resurrection of 1 Thes.4:13-18, but if you will notice, in Rev.20:4-6 this is only a resurrection and there no mention of the living being changed and caught up here. That said, anyone who becomes a believer during that time of wrath will go through the entire period of wrath until Christ returns to the earth to end the age, that is, if they make it through without being killed. Those who do make it through, along with the woman (Israel) will be those who will repopulate the earth during the millennial period.

 

[rdbseekingafterhim]

Oh ok. I thought it was two events. I have not studied it that much. However, what I said was my take away. In any event the church will be called up and be spared God's wrath. That I am sure of.

 

[rdbseekingafterhim]

The reason I came to the two part rapture is when the tribulation saints are protected from certain judgements and wrath from God. Like when the scorpion demons were to leave God's people alone for example. So since God was protecting them I felt they would be called up after the 2 prophets are killed. My line of reasoning is sound. I don't have much scripture I can use right off hand to show proof of my theory.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello again,

The reason I came to the two part rapture is when the tribulation saints are protected from certain judgements and wrath from God

So, my next question is, where are you reading that the GTS are protected from certain judgments? The only one that I know of that they are protected from is at the pouring out of the 1st bowl judgment, which are those ugly, painful sores that break out on those who receive the mark of the beast and that because a the GTS will not have receive his mark. Otherwise, scripture shows that they are exposed to the other plagues of wrath, as can be seen below:

"Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat down on them,’[SUP] [/SUP]nor any scorching heat."

The reference to then never hungering or thirsting again would be indicative of the famine as a result of the 3rd seal. The thirst would be indicative of the waters being made bitter and many people dying as a result of the 3rd trumpet, as well as the ocean waters and fresh waters being turned into literal blood at the pouring out of the 2nd and 3rd bowl judgments. And finally, the mention of them not having the sun no longer beating down on them nor an any scorching heat, would be indicative of the pouring out of the 4th bowl which scorches the inhabitants of the earth with intense heat. That said, it appears that everyone, including the GTS, will be exposed to God's wrath, which is why Jesus continues to warn believers to watch and be ready so that we will not be caught in that time period.

Like when the scorpion demons were to leave God's people alone for example.

The only people who are exempt from the demonic beings that come up out of the Abyss that torment with stings like that of scorpions, are the 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel. There is no mention of anyone else or any other group being protected from this plague of wrath.

I hope that this provides a little more understanding regarding this subject.

 

[rdbseekingafterhim]

It does. As I said I didn't heavily research it. I have read through it and certain things kinda ran together it seems. It's a common mistake. It can happen to anyone.

 

[pottersclay]

If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

Now how do we appear with him if we went taken beforehand? We are not appointed to wrath. If you are saved...saved from what.....The wrath to come. It's pretty simple and if you still don't get it will explain on the way up.

 

[Blain]

Does the information that the Holy Spirit provides change? I have studied scripture for over 40 years and the Holy Spirit lead me to the study of end-time events. Regarding this, I have never changed my position regarding what the Holy Spirit has taught me regarding the gathering of the church. By changing your position you could not have received this information from the Spirit, else it would remain the same. Furthermore, just because you have changed your position does not mean that it is correct.

We who study end-time events have not become worn out, but become more and more excited as we see the end-time events continue to line up. As I continue to proclaim according to scripture, in between where we are right now till the time that the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom, lies the wrath of God. Regarding this, Scripture is clear that the church cannot and will not go through this time of wrath (1 Thes.1:10, 5:9 & Rev.3:10). Do you think that God is going to pour out the wrath upon His Son that we deserve and then send those who believe in Him through His wrath anyway?! If you do, you have no understanding of the nature of God. For anyone who believes that, they need to do a study on whom God's wrath is being poured out on and understand that all of the inhabitants of the earth will be exposed to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, with nowhere to hide. It always seems to be that those who don't study end-time events are always the ones who are opposed to those who have studied and continue to study it.


Those of us who know that believers are not appointed to suffer the coming wrath and who watch longingly as the stage is being set for the time of the antichrist, become more and more excited because we know that our Lord will appear and gather the church prior to that time of wrath, which will be running concurrently with the beasts kingdom and that entire seven years. These are not our own views, but are God given through the word of God and the Holy Spirit.

"But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come."

that may be so for you but not everyone is the same, in all honesty I am grateful that I became spirituall worn out about the rapture. Looking back I wasn't doing it for the right reason, I wanted it to happen so badly but it wasn't out of love for him it was just to escape. To escape this world to go to a better place with no pain no sadness and to see heavenly things, if I am to desire to go home I want it to solely be for him our of the deepest love and adoration not to escape and honestly I was in the spiritual hype of it back then my heart was not in the right place at the time it was a spiritual high kind of thing for me and I sometimes wonder if that is the same for most rapture watchers.


Yet even with all this he did not hold back in showing me what is yet to come he continued to show me the rapture he continued to show and speak to me events coming and trust me not all of them are good in fact some of them are horrific and bloody and I shudder when I remember what I saw. I don't doubt the rapture will happen but I don't have a stance on when

 

[FlSnookman7]

Some get very caught up in all the rapture talk (hee hee). To me it's moot, raptured, stroke or hit by a bus I go to be with Jesus, how I get there is of little consequence in the grand scheme of things. That said, it is a great Blondie song.

 

[ukok102nak]

:hrmm: actually not only those 144,000
as it is written
:read:
Pahayag: 7. 9.
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10. And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
~;> AND ABOUT THOSE
144,000
as it is written
:read:
Pahayag: 14. 1. And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3. And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

:ty:

godbless us all always

 

[ukok102nak]

unto all brethrens brothers and sisters
believers and unbelievers (hope they change their ways)
and about these
great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hand
... . as it is written
:read:
Pahayag: 7. 13. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14. And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

:ty:

godbless us all always