THE RAPTURE

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Blain said:
Actually this is not true the bible teaches more than the pretrib rapture it's all based on our own beliefs and our own interpretation of the scriptures. Believe me I used to be like you I was a very hard core rapture believer not just a rapture believer but a pre trib rapture believe me you could never waver me from my belief in the pretrib rapture no matter what scriptures you showed me.

But as I said after I became to spiritually worn out to even think of the rapture things changed, I no longer had an opinion of the timing of it regardless if it's pre trib pre wrath mid trib or post trib however the blessing of this was I was able to see all four beliefs in the bible instead of only the pretrib. It's amazing how the scriptures really open up when we don't go into the scriptures with our own views and own beliefs set in stone
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There are seven raptures in the Bible, Three have already happened, Enoch, Gen 5: 24. Elijah 2 Kings 2: 11.
and Jesus. Acts 1: 9--11.
The next raptures is the PRE-TRIB rapture, Matt 25: 1--13. Jn 14: 1--3. 1 Thess 4: 15--17
[Your disbelief of it, doesn't change the fact].
Then there are three more raptures after the Church is in heaven, The 144,000, Rev 7: 1--8. then those who get saved during the tribulation period, [The Mid tribers], Rev 7: 9--15.
then the two witnesses. Rev 11: 3--12.

So it isn't based on our own beliefs, opinions or interpretations, [That's where you went wrong], as it's based on the scriptures.

There is a pre-trib, a mid trib, But you couldn't have seen a post trib rapture, Because the Bible doesn't teach is.
When Jesus physically comes back to reign with His people, There is no rapture, And where could they be raptured to??, Jesus isn't going back to heaven once He comes to reign, Yet every rapture, is people being taken to heaven.
 
:hrmm: to all the brethrens sisters brothers
imagined how many humans walked this world
since the beginning of their creation
for in ancient times there was no stastics for human population
to begin with and also no matter how we count them all
theres no the records of how many lives where lose in the past
~;> as it is written
:read: (heres a sample records in the scriptures)
1 Paralipomeno: 4. 22. And Jokim, and the men of Chozeba, and Joash, and Saraph, who had the dominion in Moab, and Jashubi-lehem. And these are ancient things.
23. These were the potters, and those that dwelt among plants and hedges: there they dwelt with the king for his work.

:ty:

godbless us all always
 
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:alien: indeed brethrens brothers sisters
theres nothing in the records on ancient people
about their exact numbers or even in the ancient ruins
of how many lives where lose in the past while searching for
the truth
... .
as it is written
:read:
Awit: 77. 5.
I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient times.
6. I call to remembrance my song in the night: I commune with mine own heart: and my spirit made diligent search.
7. Will the Lord cast off for ever? and will he be favourable no more? 8. Is his mercy clean gone for ever? doth his promise fail for evermore?
9. Hath God forgotten to be gracious? hath he in anger shut up his tender mercies? Selah.
10. And I said, This is my infirmity: but I will remember the years of the right hand of the most High.
11. I will remember the works of the LORD: surely I will remember thy wonders of old.

. ... we remember always
the one who is our saviour who sitteth at the right hand of
the father almighty who is good and cannot lie

:ty:

godbless us all always
 
Ahwatukee said:
Hello Wall,

The following two scriptures are regarding the same event, which is when the Lord will fulfill His promise of John 14:1-3:

"Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be [caught up] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words."


As the scripture states, at the Lord's appearing those who have died in Christ will rise first, then those believers who are still alive will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies with the whole group meeting Christ in the air. Then according to John 14:2, the Lord will take us back to those dwelling places that he went to prepare for us in the Father's house, the Father's house being heaven. After God's wrath has been poured out upon a wicked Christ reject world, Jesus will return to the earth to end the age and those of us who will have been in heaven will return with the Lord depicted as those armies riding on white horses and wearing fine clothing white and clean. (Rev.17:14, 19:6-9, 14)
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So what your saying is, its only through speculation {puzzleing} that you go to heaven after you are changed in the twinkling of an eye. And it is based on John14:2.

JOHN 14 [1] Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. [2] In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. [3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

JOHN 7 [33] Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me.[34] Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and WHERE I AM, THITHER YE CANNOT COME.

Well Ahwatukeee, you do see what Jesus said dont you? We are not allowed to go to heaven but Jesus said He would come again and that where He is we will be there also


[FONT=&quot]REVELATION 21 [1] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]And I saw a NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.[2]And I John saw the holy city, NEW JERUSALEM, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.[3]And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, BEHOLD, THE TABERNACLE OF GOD IS WITH MEN, AND HE WILL DWELL WITH THEM, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.[4]And God shall WIPE AWAY ALL TEARS from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.[5]And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The many mansions? Its the new Jerusalem that is brought to this earth[/FONT]

ZECH. 8 [1] Again the word of the Lord of hosts came to me, saying, [2] Thus saith the Lord of hosts; I was jealous for Zion with great jealousy, and I was jealous for her with great fury. [3] THUS SAITH THE LORD; I AM RETURNED UNTO ZION, AND WILL DWELL IN THE MIDST OF JERUSALEM: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the Lord of hosts the holy mountain. [4] Thus saith the Lord of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age. [5] And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof. [6] Thus saith the Lord of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the Lord of hosts. [7] Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Behold, I WILL SAVE MY PEOPLE FROM THE EAST COUNTRY, AND FROM THE WEST COUNTRY; [8] AND I WILL BRING THEM, AND THEY SHALL DWELL IN THE MIDST OF JERUSALEM: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.

The new Jerusalem {many mansions} will be in Zion, in the midst of old Jerusalem. Its there He will “bring” us in the twinkling of an eye. Not to heaven as you claim

Ahwatukee, think about this. In Zech.8:7&8 the Lord says He will save His people from places on this here earth. And then its off to Jerusalem for the Kingdom rest. You claim they come heaven
 
Ahwatukee said:
For to claim that 1 Thes.4:13-17 takes place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age would be to put the church through the entire wrath of God.
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Yeah. Thats just what happens

1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with THE VOICE of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1THES.4 – voice – clouds – trump of God – sorrow not as others -

ZEPH. 1 – voice – clouds – the trumpet – man shall cry bitterly -

ZEPH. 1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even THE VOICE of the day of the Lord: the mighty MAN SHALL CRY THERE BITTERLY. [15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a DAY OF CLOUDS and thick darkness, [16] A DAY OF THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. [17] And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

No doubt about it. Both scriptures are speaking of the same event. Both scriptures speak of what happens on the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord takes place AFTER the tribulation period
 
Ahwatukee said:
Regarding this, Scripture is clear that the church cannot and will not go through this time of wrath (1 Thes.1:10, 5:9 & Rev.3:10).
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1 THESSALONIANS 5 [9] For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, [10] Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Here we see the people of God are not appointed to wrath. The Rapturist claim we are not appointed to wrath because we will be raptured into heaven during this period. You will not find one scripture that says we are going to heaven when we are changed “in the twinkling of an eye”. Not a one. So lets seee why we are not appointed to wrath.

JOHN 17 [14] I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. [15] I PRAY NOT THAT THOU SHOULDEST TAKE THEM OUT OF THE WORLD, BUT THAT THOU SHOULDEST KEEP THEM FROM THE EVIL. [16] They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Yeah, we aint a going nowhere but we will be protected. We will be kept from the evil to come.

ZEPH. 2 [1] Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired; [2] Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the Lord come upon you, BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD'S ANGER come upon you. [3] SEEK YE THE LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: IT MAY BE YE SHALL BE HID IN THE DAY OF THE LORD'S ANGER.

We all should know that the tribulation period comes before the “Day of the Lord”. Gods wrath does not begin until the Day of the Lord which immediatley happens AFTER the tribulation period. Scripture above points out that we should seek the Lord BEFORE the “Day of the Lord” that we shall be hid during the Day of the Lords anger. Not a word about the tribulation period.

PROVERBS 3 [24] When thou liest down, thou shalt not be afraid: yea, thou shalt lie down, and thy sleep shall be sweet. [25] BE NOT AFRAID of sudden fear, neither OF THE DESOLATION OF THE WICKED, when it cometh. [26] For THE LORD SHALL BE THY CONFIDENCE, AND SHALL KEEP THY FOOT FROM BEING TAKEN.

The desolation of the wicked takes place on the return of Christ. Yup, the Day of the Lord. So can any of you Rapturist explain why we are told not to be afraid at that time IF we have been raptured off to heaven. Yeah. You cant explain that. Its because we will be here on Gods green earth

PSALM 37 [7] Rest in the Lord, and WAIT PATIENTLY FOR HIM: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass. [8] Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil. [9] FOR EVILDOERS SHALL BE CUT OFF: BUT THOSE THAT WAIT UPON THE LORD, THEY SHALL INHERIT THE EARTH. [10] For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. [11] But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Just read the scripture above and believe it. The evildoers will be cut off. When? The Day of the Lord ofcourse. We are to wait patiently for Him till that time. According to the Rapturist we have been with Him for 7 yrs in heaven. Not so uh...cording to scripture

PSALM 37 [34] WAIT ON THE LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, THOU SHALT SEE IT.

Where will we be waiting on the Lord? Trying to keep His ways? Yeah, right here on Gods green earth. And when He comes to destroy the wicked...were gonna see it happen
 
I guess what bugs me most is how the Rapturist ignore scripture that is so plain and clear

1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] BEHOLD, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


The above scripture points out that “we shall all be changed” as the LAST TRUMPET is blown.

MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Here we find a trumpet being blown after the tribulation period. No matter how ya figure it, you cannot have the LAST TRUMPET being blown before the tribulation or at mid tribulation if a trumpet is being blown AFTER the tribulation. Yes, the trumpet blown in Matt.24 is the last trumpet of 1Cor.15

ISAIAH 27 [12] And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be GATHERED ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel.[13] And it shall come to pass in that day, that THE GREAT TRUMPET SHALL BE BLOWN, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, AND SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD IN THE HOLY MOUNT AT JERUSALEM.

The GREAT trumpet {also found in Matt.24} shall be blown. His people gathered. Its off to Jerusalem. To the kingdom. Not headin for heaven
 
More "last trumpet" scriptures

1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] FOR THE LORD HIMSELF SHALL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN WITH A SHOUT, WITH THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL, AND WITH THE TRUMP OF GOD: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Implies the Lord Himself will blow the LAST trumpet

ZECHARIAH 9 [14] And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his ARROW shall go forth as the lightning: and THE LORD GOD SHALL BLOW THE TRUMPET, and shall go with WHIRLWINDS of the south. [15] The LORD of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar. [16] And the LORD their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, LIFTED UP AS AN ENSIGN upon his land.

ZECH.9............ God shall blow the trumpet {last one}...............lift up ensign
ISAIAH 18.......he {God} shall blow the trumpet {last one}.......lift up ensign

ISAIAH 18 [3] All ye inhabitants of the world, and dwellers on the earth, see ye, when he LIFTETH UP AN ENSIGN on the mountains; and WHEN HE BLOWETH A TRUMPET, hear ye. [4] For so the LORD said unto me, I WILL TAKE MY REST, AND I WILL CONSIDER IN MY DWELLING PLACE like a clear heat upon herbs, and like a cloud of dew in the heat of harvest.

ISAIAH 18......I will take my rest, and I will consider in my dwelling place
PSALM 132....this is my rest for ever: here will I dwell......Zion

PSALM 132 [13] For the LORD hath chosen ZION; he hath desired it for his habitation.
[14] THIS IS MY REST FOR EVER: HERE WILL I DWELL; for I have desired it.

ZECHARIAH 8 [2] Thus saith the LORD of hosts; I WAS JEALOUS FOR ZION with great jealousy, and I was jealous for her with great fury. [3] Thus saith the LORD; I AM RETURNED UNTO ZION, AND WILL DWELL IN THE MIDST OF JERUSALEM: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain. [4] Thus saith the LORD of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age. [5] And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof.

As you can plainly see. When God blows the trumpet, its still off to Jerusalem for the kingdom rest
 
ILL SHOW YOU A MYSTERY

So where is the LAST trumpet to be blown, found in the Word?

1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] Behold, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


MYSTERY—last trumpet {it shall sound} – The LAST one! – No more trumpets to be blown – Its the LAST trumpet!

REVELATION 8 [1] And when he had opened THE SEVENTH SEAL, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. [2] And I saw the SEVEN ANGELS which stood before God; and to them were given SEVEN TRUMPETS.

Seventh angel has a trumpet. It shall sound

REVELATION 10 [6] And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: [7] But in the days of the voice of THE SEVENTH ANGEL, when he shall begin to sound, THE MYSTERY OF GOD SHOULD BE FINISHED, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.


MYSTERY SOLVED! The seventh angel begins to sound. This is the LAST trumpet you find being blown in the bible

REVELATION 16 [17] And the SEVENTH ANGEL poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, IT IS DONE.

REVELATION 11 [14] The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. [15]And THE SEVENTH ANGEL SOUNDED; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, THE KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD ARE BECOME THE KINGDOMS OF OUR LORD, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

As i said before, we do not flit off to heaven at the 1Cor.15 event. As the seventh angel sounds the trumpet the kingdoms of this world are to become the kingdoms of the Lord and thats where the Lord will bring us after meeting Him in the air. His kingdom
 
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Wall said:
Where do i find that?
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Matt 25: 1--13. Rev 19: 5--9. Please note, Jesus hasn't come back to reign at these times.
Anyone who knows the Bible will know that Matt 25: 1--13, Has to be the pre-trib rapture, Because,
[1] no one knows when Jesus is coming for His people,
[2]and once the ant-Christ starts to rule, we know how long it will be before Jesus comes to reign.
So when you put [1] And [2] together, you'll know that the Church has to go to heaven before the great tribulation period.
 
Blain said:
Actually this is not true the bible teaches more than the pretrib rapture it's all based on our own beliefs and our own interpretation of the scriptures. Believe me I used to be like you I was a very hard core rapture believer not just a rapture believer but a pre trib rapture believe me you could never waver me from my belief in the pretrib rapture no matter what scriptures you showed me.

But as I said after I became to spiritually worn out to even think of the rapture things changed, I no longer had an opinion of the timing of it regardless if it's pre trib pre wrath mid trib or post trib however the blessing of this was I was able to see all four beliefs in the bible instead of only the pretrib. It's amazing how the scriptures really open up when we don't go into the scriptures with our own views and own beliefs set in stone
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I couldn't agree with you more. I have taken the same path as yourself and have found that there are a number of opinions and as far as I can see none of them seem to have the complete answer. I am satisfied with the fact that Christ is coming again and that we should live our lives with that in mind. Everything else seems to lead to endless arguments and speculation.
 
Wall said:
ILL SHOW YOU A MYSTERY

So where is the LAST trumpet to be blown, found in the Word?

1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] Behold, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


MYSTERY—last trumpet {it shall sound} – The LAST one! – No more trumpets to be blown – Its the LAST trumpet!

REVELATION 8 [1] And when he had opened THE SEVENTH SEAL, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. [2] And I saw the SEVEN ANGELS which stood before God; and to them were given SEVEN TRUMPETS.

Seventh angel has a trumpet. It shall sound

REVELATION 10 [6] And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: [7] But in the days of the voice of THE SEVENTH ANGEL, when he shall begin to sound, THE MYSTERY OF GOD SHOULD BE FINISHED, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.


MYSTERY SOLVED! The seventh angel begins to sound. This is the LAST trumpet you find being blown in the bible

REVELATION 16 [17] And the SEVENTH ANGEL poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, IT IS DONE.

REVELATION 11 [14] The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. [15]And THE SEVENTH ANGEL SOUNDED; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, THE KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD ARE BECOME THE KINGDOMS OF OUR LORD, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

As i said before, we do not flit off to heaven at the 1Cor.15 event. As the seventh angel sounds the trumpet the kingdoms of this world are to become the kingdoms of the Lord and thats where the Lord will bring us after meeting Him in the air. His kingdom
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The Church has been raptured to heaven before the FIRST trumpet is blown, in the book of Revelation,
So the "Last trumpet", in 1 Cor 15: 52, Is the last trumpet the Church will hear on the earth, It's the trumpet call to heaven, and has nothing to do with the trumpets in Revelation, Even the 144.000 and the mid tribers had been taken to heaven before the first trumpet.

You could be half right, Because those who go up in the pre-trib rapture, are those who are ready, waiting and watching.
Those who aren't ready, wont go.
 
Wall said:
I guess what bugs me most is how the Rapturist ignore scripture that is so plain and clear

1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] BEHOLD, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


The above scripture points out that “we shall all be changed” as the LAST TRUMPET is blown.

MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Here we find a trumpet being blown after the tribulation period. No matter how ya figure it, you cannot have the LAST TRUMPET being blown before the tribulation or at mid tribulation if a trumpet is being blown AFTER the tribulation. Yes, the trumpet blown in Matt.24 is the last trumpet of 1Cor.15

ISAIAH 27 [12] And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be GATHERED ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel.[13] And it shall come to pass in that day, that THE GREAT TRUMPET SHALL BE BLOWN, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, AND SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD IN THE HOLY MOUNT AT JERUSALEM.

The GREAT trumpet {also found in Matt.24} shall be blown. His people gathered. Its off to Jerusalem. To the kingdom. Not headin for heaven
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You have to know when the Bible is talking about the [ELECT Jews] and when it's talking about the [ELECT, Church], and you have mixed the Church up with the elect Jews, In Matt 24.

Please note, Jesus comes back for His people, [The Church], Jn 14: 1--3. 1 Thess 4: 14--17.
Yet in Matt 24: 31, It's the Angels that gather the Elect Jews, after the tribulation, So Matt 24 Cannot be talking about the Elect Church going through the tribulation.
 
Wall said:
1Cor.15? What is that actually talking about. I believe it will be the time of the gathering of Gods people. We will meet Christ in the air and then its off to Jerusalem to the kingdom rest. What do you believe and why?
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When we meet the Lord in the air,and are forever with Him,the saints will be gathered in heaven,receiving glorified bodies,and then the Bible says that when God comes back that the saints are with Him,and Jesus and the saints ride white horses,when God punishes the world for their sins and iniquities against Him.

Jesus and the saints rule on earth over one sixth of the world that God spared,for a 1000 years,and then they go to the New Jerusalem,where sin has never been,and sin will never be.
 
God4me said:
The Church has been raptured to heaven before the FIRST trumpet is blown, in the book of Revelation,
So the "Last trumpet", in 1 Cor 15: 52, Is the last trumpet the Church will hear on the earth,
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[FONT=&quot]1COR.15 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and WE SHALL BE CHANGED.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Death is swallowed up in victory[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]ISAIAH 25 [8] HE WILL SWALLOW UP DEATH IN VICTORY; and the Lord GOD will WIPE AWAY TEARS from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.[9] And it shall be said IN THAT DAY, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]IN THAT DAY= Death is swallowed up in victory[/FONT]
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ISAIAH 27 [12] And it shall come to pass IN THAT DAY, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and YE SHALL BE GATHERED ONE BY ONE, O YE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL. [13] And it shall come to pass IN THAT DAY, that the GREAT TRUMPET SHALL BE BLOWN, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

IN THAT DAY= Last trumpet {1Cor.15} will be blown and Gods people gathered {in the twinkling of an eye}
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ISAIAH 2 [11] The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted IN THAT DAY. [12] For THE DAY OF THE LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

IN THAT DAY= The Day of the Lord

ISAIAH 2 [19] And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. [20] IN THAT DAY a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; [21] To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, WHEN HE ARISETH TO SHAKE TERRIBLY THE EARTH.

IN THAT DAY= Yup. Surely the Day of the Lord


So now i bet your gonna claim "death is swallowed up in victory" twice. Once for the church and once for Israel. Come on
 
1COR.15[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and WE SHALL BE CHANGED.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY.

At the 1Cor15 event “death is swallowed up in victory”. It happens only once.

ISAIAH 25 [8] HE WILL SWALLOW UP DEATH IN VICTORY; and the Lord GOD will WIPE AWAY TEARS from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.[9] And it shall be said IN THAT DAY, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

In above scripture "death is swallowed up in victory". Both scriptures, speaking of same event. But in Isaiah 25 you also find that at that time “God shall wipe away all tears”. This to will happen but once.

REVELATION 21 [1] And I saw a NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.[2]And I John saw the holy city, NEW JERUSALEM, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.[3]And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, BEHOLD, THE TABERNACLE OF GOD IS WITH MEN, AND HE WILL DWELL WITH THEM, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.[4]And God shall WIPE AWAY ALL TEARS from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.[5]And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

No more tears. When? When death is swallowed up in victory {1Cor.15v54} and at the same time Jesus dwells with man in the new Jerusalem {the 1000yr period of rest}

REVELATION 7 [13]And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?[14]And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.[15]Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: AND HE THAT SITTETH ON THE THRONE SHALL DWELL AMONG THEM.[16]They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.[17]For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall WIPE AWAY ALL TEARS from their eyes.

No more tears. No one will be raptured off to heaven. When we are changed in the twinkling of an eye, we meet the Lord in the air and its off to the kingdom rest with Jesus. So now we know where we are going at the so called “rapture” event.
 
Unless of course you claim "no more tears" will happen twice. Once for the church and once for Isreal. Come on
 
Wall said:
[FONT=&quot]1COR.15 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and WE SHALL BE CHANGED.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Death is swallowed up in victory[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]ISAIAH 25 [8] HE WILL SWALLOW UP DEATH IN VICTORY; and the Lord GOD will WIPE AWAY TEARS from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.[9] And it shall be said IN THAT DAY, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]IN THAT DAY= Death is swallowed up in victory[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
ISAIAH 27 [12] And it shall come to pass IN THAT DAY, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and YE SHALL BE GATHERED ONE BY ONE, O YE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL. [13] And it shall come to pass IN THAT DAY, that the GREAT TRUMPET SHALL BE BLOWN, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

IN THAT DAY= Last trumpet {1Cor.15} will be blown and Gods people gathered {in the twinkling of an eye}
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
ISAIAH 2 [11] The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted IN THAT DAY. [12] For THE DAY OF THE LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

IN THAT DAY= The Day of the Lord

ISAIAH 2 [19] And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. [20] IN THAT DAY a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; [21] To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, WHEN HE ARISETH TO SHAKE TERRIBLY THE EARTH.

IN THAT DAY= Yup. Surely the Day of the Lord


So now i bet your gonna claim "death is swallowed up in victory" twice. Once for the church and once for Israel. Come on
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You are getting the people who died during the tribulations period, with those who die in Christ and are resurrected at the pre trib rapture.

You twist the scriptures to build your own doctrines.
 
Hello Wall,

REVELATION 7 [13]And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?[14]And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.[15]Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: AND HE THAT SITTETH ON THE THRONE SHALL DWELL AMONG THEM.[16]They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.[17]For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall WIPE AWAY ALL TEARS from their eyes.
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Regarding the scripture above, those that are being spoken of is not the church, but the great tribulation saints (GTS) that are introduced in Rev.7:9-17. Previously John was told to write letters to the seven churches. Then in Rev.7:9-17, the elder asks John who this group is which is too large to count wearing white robes. John's response is that he doesn't know who they are. The very fact that the elder is even asking John who this group is demonstrates that they are not the church. And also, the fact John says that he doesn't know who they are would also demonstrate that this group is not the church. What you are doing is misapply scripture that is referring to the GTS and applying them as being the church.

Another point is that, the very last word in the 3rd chapter is "Ekklesia" translated church, but from chapter 4 onward you will never see the word Ekklessia/Church again. The word used to describe a believer from Rev.4 onward is the word Hagios/Saint, which is in reference to the GTS. The reason that you don't see the word Ekklesia/church any longer is because the church has been removed.
 
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