You Are A New Creation!

[Grace777x70]

Romans 4:1-4
Flesh here is ancestory of Jews from Abraham - not self effort, just a descendant
Phil 3:3
Flesh here is physical circumcision as a sign of being part of Israel

Now this is not condemnation of people because of circumcision or ancestory but rather
should have faith reconned as righteousness.

It's what they were trying to do in their flesh that makes it self-effort.

Romand 4: 1-4 is talking about Abraham doing things in his flesh - his works. Paul said his works by his own self-effort to be justified.

Romans 4:2-5 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

[SUP]4 [/SUP] Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.

[SUP]5 [/SUP] But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

God doesn't recognize what we do in the flesh in self-effort to fulfill God's word. Abraham tried to fulfill the word of God and created an Ishmael. God told him to "take his son, his only son..."

God doesn't recognize what we do in the flesh to fulfill the word of God no matter how good the intentions are. Jesus said the flesh profits nothing - only the Spirit.

Only the work done by the fruit of the life of Christ in us will be recognized by God.

Paul was trying to obtain righteousness by his own self-effort in keeping the law in Phil. 3:3 - giving his pedigree and good works.

I realize this understanding of self-effort of doing things in the flesh is not being recognized by God is a stumbling block to some.

All the more reason to walk by the Spirit with full reliance on Christ inside of us being manifested in and through us to a hurt and dying world.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The above quote illustrates the problem with the word flesh. It is used to me our physical body, and also carnal desires and also sinful behaviour. You only know what the writer is meaning by looking at the context and how it all hangs together.

The above verse is clearly talking about we are not fighting a physical war with physical beings but spiritual issues.

So to see this used in terms of wrestling with carnal desires and issues of the heart, appears to be a miss quote.
We all know we do wrestle with our hearts and its desires, temptations for money, sex and power, so to claim this has no hold on believers is also very naive and not biblical. Time and again Paul complains of christians caught up with selfish ambition.

So such interpretations illustrates the poor biblical interpretation and poor life awareness.

I agree that we do indeed wrestle against the longings of the flesh. Paul used the expression flesh and blood, which refers to other men.

 

[PeterJens]

Now it is an interesting extension of the flesh meaning being an descendant of Abraham or having circumcision and walking in righteousness.

The attempt here is to try and say anything a believer does is in the flesh which is simply not true. Everything we do is with our bodies, so by this logic everything we do is evil and wrong.

I call this kind of connecting logic is just trying to justify an incorrect theology.
If people can both do sinful acts and righteous acts, the flesh or body is irrelevant, which is what Paul is saying.

The mystics need though a reason to condemn righteous people for being righteous rather than identifying sin.
If you talk about honestly what sin is, they hate defining it because they believe this is legalism, and something believers should never do. This is why we declare this as heresy and God is very specific about being Holy and pure and not being defiled by sin, in action and from the heart. And this is why most of the church rejects their theology.

 

[Tessy]

If we indeed are seated in Heavenly places and we await our Savior from Heaven (Phi 3:20) and we know that there is zero sin in Heaven, then how can we say we are still sinners? It is a difficult thing indeed to trust what God says over who we think and feel we are but if we can get over ourselves and have faith His Word is true then we can know who we really are in Christ. Then and only then can we love ourselves and others and fulfill the only 2 commandments that Jesus gave us.

I'm still not sure on this one. It's hard because I know I still sin. I also know the apostle Paul called us saints...I guess we can't be both. But why then did Paul call himself a sinner of who he is chief? 1 Timothy 1:15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners: of whom I am chief. I am not arguing here...I just need clarification. He could have said of whom I WAS chief...see what I mean?

 

[Grace777x70]

I'm still not sure on this one. It's hard because I know I still sin. I also know the apostle Paul called us saints...I guess we can't be both. But why then did Paul call himself a sinner of who he is chief? 1 Timothy 1:15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners: of whom I am chief. I am not arguing here...I just need clarification.

Hi Tessy,

Here is a short article in the link below about Paul being the Chief of sinners. It helped me to understand this better because as you say ....we are called saints.

Paul didn't write and say "To the sinners at Rome, Galataia, Ephesians, Colossae, Corinthians ( he really should have called these ones sinners by the way they were acting but he didn't ) etc. "

I like to use this website as it tackles obscure passages and looks at them through the finished work of Christ and people can ask questions at the bottom. Sometimes I learn a lot from that too.

https://escapetoreality.org/2015/06/03/chief-of-sinners/

 

[mpaper345]

However it is not to say that we don't sin and mess up sometimes

Right,we are a new creation in Christ,and we do not have a sin nature,but that is not a guarantee that we will not sin,for we only do not have a sin nature as long as we are led of the Spirit,for the Bible says if we sin after we are saved,we have an advocate with the Father,Jesus Christ,the righteous,so it is possible that we can sin if we desire,after we are saved.

If we did not have a sin nature after we are saved,that always stayed that way without our control,we would never sin again after we are saved.

 

[John146]

2 Corinthians 5:17, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

What part of me is "in Christ"? My flesh is not "in Christ" so it must be referring to my inner man, my soul. Until my body of flesh is redeemed at the adoption, there will always be a struggle between my inner man and the flesh. The only way I know how to overcome the flesh is to renew my mind in Scripture every day, moment by moment. One lapse of absence from thinking upon such things leaves me open to the lusts of the flesh.

 

[Grace777x70]

Right,we are a new creation in Christ,and we do not have a sin nature,but that is not a guarantee that we will not sin,for we only do not have a sin nature as long as we are led of the Spirit,for the Bible says if we sin after we are saved,we have an advocate with the Father,Jesus Christ,the righteous,so it is possible that we can sin if we desire,after we are saved.

If we did not have a sin nature after we are saved,that always stayed that way without our control,we would never sin again after we are saved.

I liked what you said mostly but some of it is confusing. First sentence you say " Right,we are a new creation in Christ,and we do not have a sin nature"

Then you say at the end that we do have a sin nature. I think we should use biblical terms so that it doesn't add to confusion. We are a new creation in Christ and we have been made partakers of His divine nature through His promises - Peter says.

We do have the flesh left over after the old man was crucified on the cross with Christ. Paul says that the same way He died - we too died and when He rose to newness of live - so did we.

I propose we call the new creation in Christ our true nature. The residue left over after the old man was crucified is called the flesh and in it is the law of sin as Paul talked about in Romans 7:17-23. This too wars against us in our mind.

We either walk after the flesh or after the Spirit - we don't change natures and as you say when we do sin - we do have our Advocate that stands in our place with the Father. Amen..thank you Jesus!

 

[Chester]

Good thread with some excellent content -

I am convinced we must make a clear distinction in our theology between the spirit level and the level of the flesh. The original NIV translation mixed this up by sometimes translating the Greek work "sarks" (flesh) as old nature or sin nature.

Romans 6 teaches that the old man (self) was crucified with Christ (aorist Greek tense - past completed event). But we do still live in the flesh and here is where the daily battle is.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

…

I think we should use biblical terms so that it doesn't add to confusion.

…

I propose we call the new creation in Christ our true nature.

…

If we want to use biblical terms, how about using the term "old man" / "new man"?

I don't see the term "true nature" in Scripture.

 

[Grace777x70]

If we want to use biblical terms, how about using the term "old man" / "new man"?

I don't see the term "true nature" in Scripture.

Yes..I agree....I was proposing that we say we are a new creation in Christ....and that it is our true nature - our real identity in Christ now.

The word nature is in the bible relating to us partaking of God's divine nature and also used in context that we were by nature enemies of God before we came to Christ.

The word identity is not in the bible either but then again so are not hundreds of other words we use in everyday life now in our modern world to describe things.

Old man and new man are biblical for sure and what do you think about using the term "new man" to define who we truly are now in Christ?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

It's like John said. Those who say they have no sin 'nature' deceive themselves. He simply called it having sin.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8​

 

[FreeNChrist]

It's like John said. Those who say they have no sin 'nature' deceive themselves. He simply called it having sin.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8​

If you have a sin nature you are still unregenerated.

 

[Chester]

It's like John said. Those who say they have no sin 'nature' deceive themselves. He simply called it having sin.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8​

But the verse doesn't say clearly that the Christian still has a sin nature. If we start with the assumption that the Christian has a sin nature, we could take it to mean this, but it is surely not a proof text that the Christian still has a sin nature.

Do you have any clear verse that says the Christian still has a sin nature?

 

[Chester]

Yes..I agree....I was proposing that we say we are a new creation in Christ....and that it is our true nature - our real identity in Christ now.

The word nature is in the bible relating to us partaking of God's divine nature and also used in context that we were by nature enemies of God before we came to Christ.

The word identity is not in the bible either but then again so are not hundreds of other words we use in everyday life now in our modern world to describe things.

Old man and new man are biblical for sure and what do you think about using the term "new man" to define who we truly are now in Christ?

New creation, new man, = what we are at our spirit level in Christ: I like that!

Add to this the indwelling of the Holy Spirit at our spirit level and you have the recipe for an exciting life!

Yes, we still have the flesh, but if we live after the spirit (all the time) we will not ever fulfill the desires of the flesh!
(But if you are like me, I haven't arrived here yet - I am working at it - but it will be finally fulfilled in glory!)

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

But the verse doesn't say clearly that the Christian still has a sin nature. If we start with the assumption that the Christian has a sin nature, we could take it to mean this, but it is surely not a proof text that the Christian still has a sin nature.

Do you have any clear verse that says the Christian still has a sin nature?

What else could John have been referring to? Sins are acts of rebellion. They are things we do, not have. John was talking about something that dwells within us and we possess and is part of our Adamic nature.

 

[Grace777x70]

New creation, new man, = what we are at our spirit level in Christ: I like that!

Add to this the indwelling of the Holy Spirit at our spirit level and you have the recipe for an exciting life!

Yes, we still have the flesh, but if we live after the spirit (all the time) we will not ever fulfill the desires of the flesh!
(But if you are like me, I haven't arrived here yet - I am working at it - but it will be finally fulfilled in glory!)

Amen...I agree...this is where there is therefore "now" no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus comes in handy. That we know what Christ has done for us...that His blood has redeemed us ...that we are deeply loved ..it releases us to walk on confidently in the Lord.

Walking by the Spirit is an endless adventure in our Lord and in constant astonishment of the grace of God in our lives.

The Lord is not looking for ways to keep us from Him. He died so that we could be free to be with Him and the Father.

 

[Chester]

What else could John have been referring to? Sins are acts of rebellion. They are things we do, not have. John was talking about something that dwells within us and we possess and is part of our Adamic nature.

"If we say we have no sin . . ." - It could mean simply: If we say that we do not have internal sin issues such as anger, greed, selfishness, fear, etc.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

"If we say we have no sin . . ." - It could mean simply: If we say that we do not have internal sin issues such as anger, greed, selfishness, fear, etc.

What do you think that stuff is? It's sinful nature.

 

[FreeNChrist]

What do you think that stuff is? It's sinful nature.

It's you reading into it what you want it to mean.