Eternal Security and free choice for the Christian?
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do you think Peter might have been also? because
Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers. (Lk 22:31-32)
i can't imagine Christ's prayer not being fully in line with His Father's will.
also, John 17
do you think Peter might have been also? because
Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers. (Lk 22:31-32)
i can't imagine Christ's prayer not being fully in line with His Father's will.
also, John 17
I like that scripture. One of the things I noticed about it was that Jesus never prayed that Peter himself wouldn't fail - because he did fail and denied Jesus.
Jesus prayed that his faith would not fail. Once he saw Jesus again - he remembered and knew his Lord.
Jesus now for us is the author and finisher of faith.
S
Scriptureplz
Guest
Peter was saved because of what he believed not because of what he said. Jesus knew his heart just like He knows ours. We are just mortals and you may think you will 'stand strong' when the time comes, but you really have no idea until that time comes! Fortunately our eternal security is based on our trust in Christ, not our faithfulness to Him.
We were chosen by God, we were predestined by God to accept Him. If we were chosen and Predestined to accept Jesus then how does free will come into the picture?
Romans 8:29-30
[SUP]29 [/SUP]For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Ephesians 1:4,5
[SUP]4 [/SUP]just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, [SUP]5 [/SUP]having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
Ephesians 1:11
[SUP]11 [/SUP]In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
Where does free will come into the equation if we were chosen and predestined to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior?
Romans 8:29-30
[SUP]29 [/SUP]For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Ephesians 1:4,5
[SUP]4 [/SUP]just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, [SUP]5 [/SUP]having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
Ephesians 1:11
[SUP]11 [/SUP]In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
Where does free will come into the equation if we were chosen and predestined to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior?
S
Scriptureplz
Guest
This is Calvinism and is false teaching. I won't get into why unless you want to start your own thread. I have no intention of getting offtrack with this persons post. We do have free will as scripture tells us clearly.
thanks for that terrific addition to my feeble thought.
You did not have a feeble thought. You started us thinking and we need each other so that we can be built up together into Him....
Sorry, but I just couldn't let you be ignorant of this truth>>>>>>2 Timothy 2:12 "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
S
Scriptureplz
Guest
Just like some people to only give a part of the passage. Lets look at 3 verses shall we?
[h=1]2 Timothy 2:11-13[/h] [SUP]11 [/SUP]It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
[SUP]13 [/SUP]If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
Since verse 11 already establishes the fact that "if we be dead with Him, we shall also live with Him", then it stands to reason you have not correctly understood vs 12, especially since vs 13 backs it up even further.
If you want truth, you will necessarily need to start reading scripture in context instead of using one liners to prove your theology.
Amen...context is so important when reading scripture. We can make the bible say whatever we want by one verse or even by "stringing" scriptures together to make it "appear" to say what we want.
If we don't take all scriptures in context with each other and filter them through the finished work of Christ first - we will end up with a mixed-up theology where we are trying to do the Old Covenant ways and make them try to fit into New Covenant realities - and this cannot be done as Jesus said. New wine = new wineskins.
S
Scriptureplz
Guest
You think one verse somehow cancels out the other? LOL Okie dokie champ.
2 Timothy 2:9-13
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
[SUP]13 [/SUP]If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
The problem here is you have assumed that "deny" means a denial of salvation, when Paul is actually talking about rewards. There are rewards given to those believers who suffer for the cause of the gospel at the "Bema Seat" (1 Cor. 3:11-15). Verse 12 says if we "suffer" we shall also "reign" with Him, but if we deny Him to others instead of preaching the gospel, He will deny us that opportunity to "reign with Him".
It's easy to see verse 13 is clearly supporting the eternal security of the believer, since when Paul uses the word "we" he is referring to believers.
You can see scripture in whatever way you choose to understand it, but there is only one truth that can be gleaned from any verse and to get to that truth you have to use more than one verse. If you are sincere about looking for the truth, you will find it because God will help you find it. But if you are only looking for your truth, you will never find the truth, only your truth.
This is my last response to you if you continue with the attitude.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Amazing, that Jesus never asked peter to repent, Or say he was sorry, Or anything.
He encouraged him as a loving father would.. By telling him, Hey son, Even though you can't say you agape me, I still want you to feed my sheep..
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Peter had not been born again of the Holy Spirit yet, Jesus said as much.
So we have a different gospel than the OT saints? Since when?
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
The OT could not either,, The seal may not have been possible until after the penalty was paid in full. But God still knew who would recieve hum ad who would not. Faith is no diffewrent today than 4000 years ago. It is still the same.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Because we are predestined based on foreknowledge of God. based on the gospel. Whoever believes will be saved, God knew before time who would receive and who would reject.
S
Scriptureplz
Guest
I believe in the OT they could lose it, just as it will be in the tribulation. In the OT faith had to be maintained or the Spirit would leave them. The Spirit never indwelt and sealed believers like today in the age of grace. So the Spirit could leave them if they didn't keep the faith.
My understanding anyway, which always remains flexible for the Spirit to change through the Word.
No OT saint was:
1. Sealed by the Holy Spirit
2. Absent from the body and present with the Lord
3. Born again
4. Washed in the blood of the Lamb
5. Part of the church, the body of Christ
6. Made a new creature in Christ
S
Scriptureplz
Guest
Great, I just need to see scripture supporting that and I will allow my understanding to be changed.