getting dates about a young earth

[eternally-gratefull]

Water freezes in 0 degrees Celsia. Nothing extraordinary in Siberia, right?
What science says what you said it says? Do you have source? And, please, not icr and similar websites

We are talking water in an animal that was eating food. Do you freeze at zero degrees celsius?

-150 to - 175 is the degree science says it would take to freeze an animal the size od a wooly mammoth instantly in place.

 

[trofimus]

Not really. I'm just good at getting to the heart of the matter. You have theistic evolution all over your posts. Darwinian and theistic and atheistic evolution are essentially the same things. You are taking one or two words and using them to force the point of view that God set things in motion, the building blocks of life, and then let nature take its course. This makes God out to be a liar. And God cannot lie. He created. Adam brought death into the world. Now you answer my question. Was there death in the world before adam sinned?

But why do you have such a need to talk about me?

I am only asking for your explanation, that will put together "God made animals" and "Let the earth bring forth animals", thats all. Some explanation, that will contain both parts, not just "God made" part.

You dont have to talk about evolution or about my belief. I want only your explanation that makes sense to the verse.

 

[trofimus]

We are talking water in an animal that was eating food. Do you freeze at zero degrees celsius?

-150 to - 175 is the degree science says it would take to freeze an animal the size od a wooly mammoth instantly in place.

Can you post your source? But really scientific, not some young earth agenda webpage...

 

[Dan_473]

God would have to fake many things, for example:
1. fossil records of millions of animals and plants that would never existed
2. ice layers, meteorits impacts that never happened
3. remnants of ancient humanoids or people in caves, paintings in caves, their tools etc, that would never happend in reality
4. distant stars
5. history of universe like the death of stars we can see in our telescopes - that would also never happend

It is possible to believe that and you would get Bible and Science "in line", but I dont think this view is credible.

fake yes, though I prefer "already in motion"

like when Jesus turns water into wine, is it fake? or real wine that appears to have been fermenting for weeks when in fact it had not.


I ask myself, which is easier to do, the five examples we have here, or breathe into a human body the breath of life?

I can't say for sure, since I can't do either one... but I think God can do both easily.

Why not?

it's certainly a possible view... imo, it opens the door to seeing most of christianity as myth-based.

I personally find that interesting, that Adam was 230 years old when having son, Enos 190 etc. For me, this can be the purpose of this data.

ok, but... is it interesting that a man was 35 when he had a son?

So far I have found this - Reasons To Believe : The Genesis Genealogies
The argument that all genealogies in Bible are telescoped in some rate was in a youtube debate, so it is not easy to find on google.

a couple things stand out to me from the webpage...
"While we can’t be conclusive in regards to the nature of the Genesis genealogies..." so the writer is saying it's not conclusive whether they're telescoped or not...

but this made me question the scholarship of the article...

"Both the age at fatherhood and the age at death are certainly exceptional for all the individuals included in the Genesis genealogies."

I disagree... imo, 35 is not an exceptional age for fatherhood.

Google it China, Egypt, Summer...

I mean people living to be close to a thousand years old.

 

[Dan_473]

Well, Genesis said - Land, produce plants, waters, produce animals, land, produce animals, , produce animals... and God made it.

So, according to Genesis - first live originated in waters, then land animals. And God was behind all this.

I see no reason why theistic evolution is not suitable for this. And actually I see no other explanation than theistic evolution, that would take in account both sides of Genesis - nature did it + God did it.

does theistic evolution imply miracles?

if a supernatural agent is active in a situation, then conclusions drawn from natural observations would be suspect, imo.

 

[Dan_473]

Yes, God can make young univers looking old, but I personally dont believe in such a scenario, when he would fake so many thing just to convince us universe is old, if it is young.

I'm not sure God is trying to convince us the universe is old.

when Jesus turned the water into wine, I think he made actual wine in just a few minutes... as opposed to making grape juice and letting it ferment for weeks.

was Jesus trying to fool anyone? those who heard what he said to the servants knew what had actually happened.

 

[Sirk]

But why do you have such a need to talk about me?

I am only asking for your explanation, that will put together "God made animals" and "Let the earth bring forth animals", thats all. Some explanation, that will contain both parts, not just "God made" part.

You dont have to talk about evolution or about my belief. I want only your explanation that makes sense to the verse.

This isn't personal. At least not for me. If God made the creatures as you say, with time and mutation, then death would have existed prior to the fall of Adam and Eve. That is contrary to scripture.

 

[BeyondET]

But why do you have such a need to talk about me?

I am only asking for your explanation, that will put together "God made animals" and "Let the earth bring forth animals", thats all. Some explanation, that will contain both parts, not just "God made" part.

You dont have to talk about evolution or about my belief. I want only your explanation that makes sense to the verse.

I think I'm starting to understand the question your asking, Genesis 2:19... speaks of first forming from the ground every animal though not in the billions of birds like today just the starting point... Then in Genesis 1:24... speaks of the reproduction of animals naturally Through mating.. You see God formed the first kinds.. Then the earth reproduced the kinds from the kinds first formed you get what is saying?

Genesis 2:19
After the LORD God formed from the ground every wild animal and every bird that flies, he brought each of them to the man to see what he would call it. Whatever the man called each living creature became its name.

Genesis1:24
Then God said " let the earth bring forth each kind of living creature, each kind of livestock and crawling thing, and each kind of earth's animals" And that is what happened.

 

[trofimus]

like when Jesus turns water into wine, is it fake?

You are repeating this wine example on several places, I will react here to all of them:
God could create Earth without making tree circles that goe before the supposed creation. God could create caves without paintings in them. God could create Earth without sedimental layers that has never happened.
God could create Universe without false light from non-existent stars.
Thats not the same as creation of wine. It would be the same as creating wine with some not needed ingredience that exists only in very old wines. Without any effect on the taste and such.

it's certainly a possible view... imo, it opens the door to seeing most of christianity as myth-based.

Christianity is based on the resurrection of Christ, not on Exodus 20. You can remove Exodus 20 and still have full christianity.

ok, but... is it interesting that a man was 35 when he had a son?

Who was 35 years old?

 

[trofimus]

I think I'm starting to understand the question your asking, Genesis 2:19... speaks of first forming from the ground every animal though not in the billions of birds like today just the starting point... Then in Genesis 1:24... speaks of the reproduction of animals naturally Through mating.. You see God formed the first kinds.. Then the earth reproduced the kinds from the kinds first formed you get what is saying?

Genesis 2:19
After the LORD God formed from the ground every wild animal and every bird that flies, he brought each of them to the man to see what he would call it. Whatever the man called each living creature became its name.

Genesis1:24
Then God said " let the earth bring forth each kind of living creature, each kind of livestock and crawling thing, and each kind of earth's animals" And that is what happened.

I dont think its a good idea to start with Gen 2 and then go to Gen 1. It can get messed up. Like you say God first did what is in Gen 2 and then what is in Gen 1.

Genesis 2 is obviously very different from Gen 1, it has another purpose.

 

[trofimus]

This isn't personal. At least not for me. If God made the creatures as you say, with time and mutation, then death would have existed prior to the fall of Adam and Eve. That is contrary to scripture.

Ok I give up, I will leave you with your anti-evolution something instead of real answer to my question

 

[Sirk]

Ok I give up, I will leave you with your anti-evolution something instead of real answer to my question

Well if you want the bible to disagree with itself have at it.

 

[BeyondET]

I'm going out on a limb on this statement but hey Jesus spoke of things not written also, I'll probably be excused of the same being a crazy man, wacko etc...

1,000,000 yrs is like a minute, In Gods realm mans knowledge of time doesn't apply. For God can move in time or back in time. God doesn't need a million yrs to create God can create at light speed..

first day 60,000,000
2. 120,000,000
3. 180,000,000
4. 240,000,000
5. 300,000,000
6. 360,000,000

 

[Sirk]

I'm going out on a limb on this statement but hey Jesus spoke of things not written also, I'll probably be excused of the same being a crazy man, wacko etc...

1,000,000 yrs is like a minute, In Gods realm mans knowledge of time doesn't apply. For God can move in time or back in time. God doesn't need a million yrs to create God can create at light speed..

first day 60,000,000
2. 120,000,000
3. 180,000,000
4. 240,000,000
5. 300,000,000
6. 360,000,000

but how do you explain death entering the world thru Adam and Eve from an old earth perspective? That's a long time for things to have offspring and not die.

 

[BeyondET]

I dont think its a good idea to start with Gen 2 and then go to Gen 1. It can get messed up. Like you say God first did what is in Gen 2 and then what is in Gen 1.

Genesis 2 is obviously very different from Gen 1, it has another purpose.

surely the bible isn't written in order so no I don't agree with you on that.

Gen2 says God formed from the ground in Gen1 he let the earth animals procreate that's my view I'm sticking with it.

 

[trofimus]

but how do you explain death entering the world thru Adam and Eve from an old earth perspective? That's a long time for things to have offspring and not die.

Letter to Romans says that through the sin of Adam death came upon all MEN, not upon animals. So this is no argument against death before fall.

Why was there the tree of life in the garden, if Adam would never die naturally?

How could Adam understand the sentence "if you will eat from the tree of good and evil, you will die", if he never witnessed what death is?

 

[BeyondET]

but how do you explain death entering the world thru Adam and Eve from an old earth perspective? That's a long time for things to have offspring and not die.

Because God told Adam not to eat from the knowledge tree, Adam did it anyway thus started the process.

 

[trofimus]

surely the bible isn't written in order so no I don't agree with you on that.

Gen2 says God formed from the ground in Gen1 he let the earth animals procreate that's my view I'm sticking with it.

Well, Gen 2 is quite a hard to explain book... can you for example explain, how could the rivers from Eden flow to Assyria or Etiopia in the present tense? Who was the author who could see Assyria, Etiopia and Eden to coexist in time?

 

[BeyondET]

Well, Gen 2 is quite a hard to explain book... can you for example explain, how could the rivers from Eden flow to Assyria or Etiopia in the present tense? Who was the author who could see Assyria, Etiopia and Eden to coexist in time?

Post the scriptures you mention you just brought up a whole new topic, we went from the first days all the way to Etiopia in the present tense.

do we know were Eden is today?

 

[Sirk]

Letter to Romans says that through the sin of Adam death came upon all MEN, not upon animals. So this is no argument against death before fall.

Why was there the tree of life in the garden, if Adam would never die naturally?

How could Adam understand the sentence "if you will eat from the tree of good and evil, you will die", if he never witnessed what death is?

Then why did God curse the serpent above all the the animals if the animals were already under the curse of death?