Tithe!

[hornetguy]

Actually simple. A lot of folks in the DEN are widows and the poor. Tithing for them is not an 'easy yoke'. Tithing for the well to do takes no sweat.

Actually, that's not true, if both the rich and the poor are giving sacrificially.... it will "hurt" both equally.
The same is true of giving 10%... it's still 10% of your total..
Again, the poor woman that gave everything she had was more "blessed" than the rich man that gave just a small percent.
It's not about "percentages".... it's about giving what YOU decide is "enough".

 

[StandingFirmInChrist]

When I was in the institutional church, (approximately fifty years of my life) I heard the argument that "God requires you to tithe ten percent of your money" more times than I can count. Offeratory time was always prefaced with the words, "It's time to return the Lord's tithes and offerings." Multiply that by fifty-two times a year, (every Sunday) paired with the preacher's sermon on tithing, (sometimes two or three times a year) visiting preachers touching on "the importance of tithing" in Revival meetings and/or Missionary Conferences, and it is easy to see how church members who are spiritually weak and don't study the Bible for themselves get beaten down quickly.

It is my belief that people do not just "choose to give ten percent." I believe they hear the phrase "tithes and offerings" so often that they are brainwashed into sub-consciously believing that God requires it.

 

[hornetguy]

It is my belief that people do not just "choose to give ten percent." I believe they hear the phrase "tithes and offerings" so often that they are brainwashed into sub-consciously believing that God requires it.

That could be true... I don't like even using the term "tithe" when discussing the offering of Christians, because it immediately brings up the 10%... which some people see as "binding".
Offerings should be freely given, whatever percentage a person decides to give. I didn't know this until I was an adult, and my dad was getting progressively weaker. He was discussing with me what his "plans" were for my mother and younger sister, and what arrangements they had made regarding "inheritance" (which I care nothing about) and he told me that throughout most of his life, he and my mom had given 75-80% of his income to the church. It was what THEY purposed in their heart to give. He told me that to explain why there was not more of an "estate" left behind, NOT to be bragging... like I said, I knew nothing about it until just before his death.

 

[Yet]

Actually, that's not true, if both the rich and the poor are giving sacrificially.... it will "hurt" both equally.
The same is true of giving 10%... it's still 10% of your total..
Again, the poor woman that gave everything she had was more "blessed" than the rich man that gave just a small percent.
It's not about "percentages".... it's about giving what YOU decide is "enough".

Actually it is true. I cannot believe I must walk you through this. Simple arithmetic. Man with family of four makes 400.00 a week. Pays tithes. Has 360.00 to live on. Another man with family of four makes 4000.00 a week. Pays tithes. Has 3600.00 to live on.
The first guy ( I still cannot believe I have to walk you through this) is suffering. The second guy is rejoicing.
This tithing system cannot be validated by the old or new testaments. Don't bother looking.

The widow was NOT BLESSED. She was robbed illegally by the wolves in religious robes. Read the previous chapter, last verse. Take away the fact that chapters did not exist in the original. This was one continuing lesson concerning the plundering of widows. Context is everything. I know your 'pastor' told you that this was an example of true 'giving', to give everything you have, a real act of faith. It was NOT. Pastors, so called, will lie to get the big bucks.

Jesus was talking about the 'devouring of widows houses', then the perfect example presented itself. A poor woman casting in all that she had. Jesus was not endorsing the giving of all that we have to wolves.

Proverbs 29:7 The righteous considers the plight of the poor, but the wicked nary gives it a thought.

Christians have been brainwashed in believing that this poor woman did the right thing, yet tons of scripture tells us a different message about the poor. We are to care for them, not take from them to fill our bank accounts like pastors do today.
Study the 'plight of the poor' scriptures. And if you cannot see that, it means you have been 'churched' to death. You regard not the poor as the previous verse demonstrates. This is apostasy, heresy, false doctrine and a travesty.

 

[hornetguy]

Yep....this is why I was done with this thread. Believe it or not, you DON'T have to walk me through anything. I've had relatively good discussions with brick walls before, but brother, you're a whole new level. I'll leave you all to it..

 

[Yet]

You cannot see how the poor are being hosed. That makes me the brick wall I reckon. I'm a little tired also trying to deal out common sense and biblical truth to folks who are 'churched to death.
A willing blindness. Sad.

 

[ggs7]

Co 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
1Co 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

2Co 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

 

[Yet]

The joy is what we reap. Obeying His 'still small voice.' 1Kings 19:12

Service to our brothers and sisters in need. May not always be money.

Heres where the organized 'church' screws it up. After paying tithes, there is nothing left over to help 'Sister Sue' with.

So she goes without. What a travesty. This damnable doctrine of tithing must be abandoned if the body of Christ is to realize what Jesus wanted. Family, not corporation. Organism, not organization.

Every member willing and ready to take care of the needy, ready to distribute. Supporting the widows and poor families, not robbing them.

'Church' should be a place of refuge, a safe place, not a dues paying club whereby the rich get off on easy street and the struggling suffer. At least be honest and place on the outside marquee 'ONLY FAITHFUL TITHERS WELCOME'!

The poor be DAMNED. SUCKS TO BE THEM is the 'church's' thinkology. Hirelings refusing to lift even one finger to help with the burden. Matt. 23:4

vs.32 you snakes, how will you escape damnation. 34. I send messengers. You cast them out.


'Oh Yet, you're just mad', you say. Mad? Me mad? You're darn right I'm mad! And I'll stay mad until the return of Christ or I die, whichever. I'll always be mad about the needy suffering and no excuse for it.
Does anyone any where on the planet even bother to study God's word anymore?

 

[hornetguy]

You cannot see how the poor are being hosed. That makes me the brick wall I reckon. I'm a little tired also trying to deal out common sense and biblical truth to folks who are 'churched to death.
A willing blindness. Sad.

IF, and only if, you are talking about the pastor-run churches that DEMAND tithes, then I am in agreement with you.
I think that MOST believers would be.

The problem is, you are NOT dealing out "common sense and Biblical truth".... you are dealing out your own pre-conceived notion that ALL churches that have paid preachers, buildings, etc are in that same category.. This is simply NOT TRUE.

I have found that the majority of churches have some type of program dedicated to do "benevolence" work. Guess where those funds come from? The free will giving of the body...

Our church routinely has a fund of somewhere around $80,000 dollars per year, and it is usually depleted sometime around 10 months into the year. We also do financial counseling for those that have gotten into a financial bind through bad decisions and money management. (give them a fish, or TEACH them to fish) When the fund runs dry, money from other budgeted funds are transferred over to cover the shortfall. This is in a church with about 900 members. Yes, we're really soaking the poor, aren't we.

Your obvious belief that only YOU hold the truth about how the ecclesia should be "done" makes it very difficult to have a discussion with you. You should open your mind to the fact that only a relative FEW churches are as you picture them. The problem is that those few are usually on television, spreading their doctrine of "doctrinal theft". It seems that these are the only examples you have of what churches really are.
I strongly suggest you get off your couch, and go out into the world and experience the "good" churches. You will be pleasantly surprised.

Blessings....

 

[StandingFirmInChrist]

"In the day you eat thereof, your eyes will be open" didn't work well for Adam and Eve.

 

[Yet]

IF, and only if, you are talking about the pastor-run churches that DEMAND tithes, then I am in agreement with you.
I think that MOST believers would be.

The problem is, you are NOT dealing out "common sense and Biblical truth".... you are dealing out your own pre-conceived notion that ALL churches that have paid preachers, buildings, etc are in that same category.. This is simply NOT TRUE.

I have found that the majority of churches have some type of program dedicated to do "benevolence" work. Guess where those funds come from? The free will giving of the body...

Our church routinely has a fund of somewhere around $80,000 dollars per year, and it is usually depleted sometime around 10 months into the year. We also do financial counseling for those that have gotten into a financial bind through bad decisions and money management. (give them a fish, or TEACH them to fish) When the fund runs dry, money from other budgeted funds are transferred over to cover the shortfall. This is in a church with about 900 members. Yes, we're really soaking the poor, aren't we.

Your obvious belief that only YOU hold the truth about how the ecclesia should be "done" makes it very difficult to have a discussion with you. You should open your mind to the fact that only a relative FEW churches are as you picture them. The problem is that those few are usually on television, spreading their doctrine of "doctrinal theft". It seems that these are the only examples you have of what churches really are.
I strongly suggest you get off your couch, and go out into the world and experience the "good" churches. You will be pleasantly surprised.

Blessings....

There you go like others on this site. Judging me. I'm not the only one that sees simple verses. There are others a plenty. Check the sites below. Many Christians are waking up to the distorted beast called 'church'. The scriptures I point to are not complicated. Most are spiritually blind to them. Church heresy has saturated them to oblivion.

 

[roaringkitten]

Wouldn't it serve the churches better if instead of forking over a couple hundred thousand dollars here and there for buildings, air conditioning, utility bills, etc....to instead invest it in, for example, giving out Bibles? And what about spending more time house to house teaching people the Word of God(which lives and abides forever-1 Pet 1:23) That is the Biblical model! The basic physical needs of people are food, water, and shelter. The basic spiritual needs of people are the spiritual meat, the living water, and spiritual protection. The tithe for example, encompasses a basic physical need(ie: food). Jesus is the bread of life(John 6:35), our basic spiritual need! The basic physical needs are important, but that which is even more important are the spiritual needs!

I see so much churchianity without Christianity today in my own observations. The people are being neglected today while many churches are being run like a business/organization. I remember a time not too long ago, I was teaching the Bible to a family who had been visited by a church for two years! They had never received a word of wisdom from the church leaders and even the pastor! It was just a quick, say the sinners prayer to put a check mark in the log books to secure more church funding. I had never felt more blessed than to be able to teach them the Word and give them something that would make a difference in their own lives! Even a neighbor down that same road didn't have a Bible, so I went out and bought him a Bible and helped him for a while reading it and showing him basic Bible truths. What I am saying is that I have never seen such spiritually starved communities in my life, even though the churches were active in those areas!

I do not speak for all churches, nor is this to condemn all churches but to those who do not follow the Word of God as it ought to be done! Which of the seven churches of Rev 1+2 does yours most closely represent? Do you know that judgment STARTS at the house of God?(1 Pet 4:17)

 

[Yet]

If any assembly does not adhere to the word, they're condemned already.

 

[Gr8grace]

If any assembly does not adhere to the word, they're condemned already.

No they are not Yet. Not in the sense of condemned to hell or loss of salvation.they are loser believers. They are forsaking their rewards, reign and rank with Christ in the eternal state. They may have a miserable experience on this planet and face divine discipline...............But the ones who have trusted Christ for their salvation at some point in time are saved.


There is NO condemnation for those who are in Christ.

 

[StandingFirmInChrist]

No they are not Yet. Not in the sense of condemned to hell or loss of salvation.they are loser believers. They are forsaking their rewards, reign and rank with Christ in the eternal state. They may have a miserable experience on this planet and face divine discipline...............But the ones who have trusted Christ for their salvation at some point in time are saved.


There is NO condemnation for those who are in Christ.

according to Matthew 7:23, many that thought they were saved will find that Christ rejects them. They did many things in His name, which shows that they believed in Christ. Yet, they were lost.

In Revelation 22:15, it is not just those who invent lies that are excluded from God's eternal Kingdom, but those who love lies that they hear as well.

Those who embrace lies are rejecting Christ.

 

[Test_F_i_2_Luv]

Yea, still here alive and kicking! but interested more about your Diagnostic Tests. Could you now elaborate more about it? Since that is your creation it would be best if you could point by point explain?... SO that the PUBLIC may KNOW... thanks

I have been purposefully repetitious at times in the answers that follow. This is because some pro-tithers are unaware of the O.T. tithing system and may easily confuse words and/or concepts.


1. T/F - All tithes in O.T. times were brought to the storehouse.

False. Nehemiah 10. It was mainly first-fruits and offerings that were brought to the storehouse by Israelites. However, the Levites did bring 1/10 of the Levitical tithe to the storehouse(Numbers 18).


2. T/F - Tithes were always delivered to the storehouse by the tither.

False. Nehemiah 10 & Numbers 18. The Israelites took their tithes to the Levites. Then, in the case of the Levitical tithe, the Levites took 1/10 - meaning 1% of the original Levitical tithe - to the storehouse. This 1% was to be the best and holiest part of the Levitical tithes(Number 18:29).


3. T/F - Tithes and firstfruits and offerings are all the same thing; the words are synonymous.

False. Nehemiah 10 & 12. They are all different. Tithes went to the Levites. 1/10 of the Levitcal tithe went to the storehouse. First-fruits were literally the first of agriculture crops that were ripe/ready for use and they did go to the storehouse. Whereas tithes were taken to the Levites, first-fruits and offerings were taken to the storehouse by the Israelites.


4. T/F - In O.T. times, Israelites were allowed to eat part of a tithe.

True. Deut 12 & 14. All of Israel ate the Festival Tithe, which is the second of three types of tithes described in the O.T.


5. T/F - In O.T. times, one tithe was due on agriculture and livestock.

False. There were 3 types of tithes. Levitical, Festival, and Poor tithe. Scholars aren't in agreement on how exactly this worked out every year, but most of them agree it was at least 20% most years there was a harvest.


6. T/F - In O.T. times, the first of every 10 animals was part of a tithe. It was to be the finest and best of the flock.

False. Lev 27(noted also in my signature line - so the easiest one to answer!). It was the 10th of 10 animals, not the first of 10, for Israelites with livestock. It was the tithes of tithes(1% - one percent) that were taken by Levites to the storehouse that were to be "holy" and the "best"(Numbers 18:25-29). Using the system the Israelites were under(Lev 27), then, consider how tithing was done on the given livestock headcounts:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
No 10th animal, no tithe.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
1 animal tithed; the 10th animal.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
1 animal of 13 is tithed; the 10th animal.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18.
1 animal of 18 is tithed; every 10th animal.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
2 animals of 21 are tithed; every 10th animal.


7. T/F - In O.T. times, tithing was done on agriculture every year.

False. Ex 23 & Lev 25. Every seventh year and Year of Jubilee(50th year) the fields were left idle.


8. T/F - In O.T. times, the Israelites were encouraged to tithe on cash/coins/precious metals.

False. While money is mentioned many times in the O.T., God showed very little interest in money when it came to tithing. When money is associated with tithing, a penalty is included(Deut 14). As one reads through the O.T. about tithing, then, s/he will noticed that agriculture and livestock are the items that are constantly associated with tithing.


There are my expanded answers to the T/F statements. Besides this, I have also replied to your "This is the way I see it"(post #776) in my post #808.

 

[roaringkitten]

There is no Biblical text that shows the early church funded buildings. In fact the Bible says:

"For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building." 1 Cor 3:9

Also the Bible states:

"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands" Acts 17:24

 

[pwrnJC]

Yet...I have read very open minded, your posts here. Nobody, including you, has mentioned "GOD loves a cheerful giver". If a tither gives grudgingly, is GOD pleased? I would say that the church itself benefits from the money given, but...it leaves a lot for discussion. Let's face it...even mafia leaders have been known to donate huge sums of money to their chosen catholic diocese and it is very much appreciated there. On the other hand, I have known a local BAR owner to come forward, expressing the idea that he wanted his child to get a CHRISTIAN education and that he would gladly make a huge donation to the private church-school that I was a teacher in. The church/school directors were insulted. They did not accept his donation because it came from selling alcohol. The man did not register his son there.
I have also had my pastor tell me that there is NOTHING wrong with taking the devil's money and turn it around to be used for GOD's glory. At the time, I was making my living designing billboards. 75-80% of the billboards were liquor advertisements, or medical facilities where abortions were conducted. Again, I would love to see where this discussion will lead....

 

[RobbyEarl]

As I Said before the tithe is a test of men's heart. Will you trust God with your money or not?

 

[fredoheaven]

These verses proves the law in the Old Testament is not abolished!

Dear Jury,

So we have now the case, wherein some of the Mosaic Laws were still essential for the growth of the saints of today. Such records are then favoring the case of tithe more than opposed. The opponents seem to imply that the Mosaic Law now in reality becomes a new law under the new covenant of grace and by their willful admission that there’s an absence of a clear command from the Apostles about tithing under the new Covenant of Grace hence, it really does not invalidate the teaching of tithe. Their very proof text does not support such idea against tithing since Acts 15 and Galatians 3:10 were talking on the subject of salvation. The issue here is, the Christian against to tithe or in favor of the tithe. I do believe that no one in here is saying we are saved because of the Mosaic Law, yet the opponents were asserting to the proponents to the extent that as Christian we are no longer under the Mosaic Law and were crossing the boundaries. I have to admit it and thus say it this clearly, that we are not endorsing any such idea. And then again, the opponents sometime saying in here, that all of the Mosaic Laws including those parts were already abolished yet the “whole counsel of God” states otherwise and indeed can be practically used even today as attested by Apostles Peter, James, John and Paul. Below are concrete proof texts and are impossible to eliminate for the Christian growth. This is to be noted that they were written under the New Covenant of Grace.

Ø 1 Peter 1:14-15 cited from Leviticus 11:44-45 – “Be ye holy for I am holy”
Leviticus 11:44 For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Leviticus 11:44-45 For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.
Ø Ephesians 6:1-2 quoted from Deut. 12:30 and others
Ø James 2:8 with Leviticus 19;18
Ø Revelation 20:19 with Deut:4:2
Deuteronomy 4:2Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Ø 1 John 5:21 “the command to keep yourselves from Idols”
Leviticus 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standingimage, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

So, in these cases it does favors “Tithing” under the New Testament and even under the New Covenant which does not in contrary to the grace as it seems to appear and since there’s not even one clear or specific command to abolish it, tithing is still for today.