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C
If you didn't have someone who was trained by someone who was trained by someone who was trained then the man in the pew would have no idea if what he heard from the pulpit was the pastor's own ideas or the word of God.
Second of all, what did Jesus say?
Matthew 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Matthew 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
So if seminary or learning was bad then why did Jesus say to observe and do what they taught?
Math is math and the Bible also has Jesus saying to love God with all of your mind and you can't do that if you aren't writing papers.
Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
I literally have to work at this by studying and looking everything up.
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
I've had my share of people attacking this verse because they are carnal christians and I don't want to hear it except I can defend the verse and I'm sure I have written articles about it over the last fifteen years but I usually write new ones because I don't always defend the Bible the same way twice.
Second of all, what did Jesus say?
Matthew 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Matthew 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
So if seminary or learning was bad then why did Jesus say to observe and do what they taught?
Math is math and the Bible also has Jesus saying to love God with all of your mind and you can't do that if you aren't writing papers.
Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
I literally have to work at this by studying and looking everything up.
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
I've had my share of people attacking this verse because they are carnal christians and I don't want to hear it except I can defend the verse and I'm sure I have written articles about it over the last fifteen years but I usually write new ones because I don't always defend the Bible the same way twice.
C
That is a translational interpretation. It means dues paid or wage.
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
New International Version
For Scripture says, "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain," and "The worker deserves his wages."
New Living Translation
For the Scripture says, "You must not muzzle an ox to keep it from eating as it treads out the grain." And in another place, "Those who work deserve their pay!"
English Standard Version
For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages.”
Berean Study Bible
For the Scripture says, "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain," and, "The worker is worthy of his wages."
Berean Literal Bible
For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox treading out grain," and, "The workman is worthy of his wages."
New American Standard Bible
For the Scripture says, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING," and "The laborer is worthy of his wages."
Holman Christian Standard Bible
For the Scripture says: Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain, and, the worker is worthy of his wages.
International Standard Version
For the Scripture says, "You must not muzzle an ox while it is treading out grain," and, "A worker deserves his pay."
NET Bible
For the scripture says, "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain," and, "The worker deserves his pay."
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For the Scriptures say, “Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading”, and, “The laborer deserves his wages.”
GOD'S WORD® Translation
After all, Scripture says, "Never muzzle an ox when it is threshing grain," and "The worker deserves his pay."
New American Standard 1977
For the Scripture says, “YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING,” and “The laborer is worthy of his wages.”
American Standard Version
For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn. And, The laborer is worthy of his hire.
Darby Bible Translation
for the scripture says, Thou shalt not muzzle an ox that treadeth out corn, and, The workman [is] worthy of his hire.
English Revised Version
For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his hire.
Weymouth New Testament
For the Scripture says, "You are not to muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain;" and the workman deserves his pay.
World English Bible
For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle the ox when it treads out the grain." And, "The laborer is worthy of his wages."
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
New International Version
For Scripture says, "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain," and "The worker deserves his wages."
New Living Translation
For the Scripture says, "You must not muzzle an ox to keep it from eating as it treads out the grain." And in another place, "Those who work deserve their pay!"
English Standard Version
For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages.”
Berean Study Bible
For the Scripture says, "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain," and, "The worker is worthy of his wages."
Berean Literal Bible
For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox treading out grain," and, "The workman is worthy of his wages."
New American Standard Bible
For the Scripture says, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING," and "The laborer is worthy of his wages."
Holman Christian Standard Bible
For the Scripture says: Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain, and, the worker is worthy of his wages.
International Standard Version
For the Scripture says, "You must not muzzle an ox while it is treading out grain," and, "A worker deserves his pay."
NET Bible
For the scripture says, "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain," and, "The worker deserves his pay."
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For the Scriptures say, “Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading”, and, “The laborer deserves his wages.”
GOD'S WORD® Translation
After all, Scripture says, "Never muzzle an ox when it is threshing grain," and "The worker deserves his pay."
New American Standard 1977
For the Scripture says, “YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING,” and “The laborer is worthy of his wages.”
American Standard Version
For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn. And, The laborer is worthy of his hire.
Darby Bible Translation
for the scripture says, Thou shalt not muzzle an ox that treadeth out corn, and, The workman [is] worthy of his hire.
English Revised Version
For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his hire.
Weymouth New Testament
For the Scripture says, "You are not to muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain;" and the workman deserves his pay.
World English Bible
For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle the ox when it treads out the grain." And, "The laborer is worthy of his wages."
C
1 Corinthians 9:7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
Charges means a soldier's pay. The answer is rhetorical. You should pay him. But Paul worked so he did not abuse the gospel.
Rhetorically he asks:
1 Corinthians 9:18 What is my reward (wages or pay) then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
I believe Paul was rich and used his wealth and his work to spread the gospel. Not every person can do that. I have been paying out of my own pocket to spread the gospel and no one helps me but the work that I could have done would have been better if I had support. So you all can look into Jesus's eyes and tell God why Christianity isn't better since you have been here when there is work to be done and no one puts in the plumbing.
Charges means a soldier's pay. The answer is rhetorical. You should pay him. But Paul worked so he did not abuse the gospel.
Rhetorically he asks:
1 Corinthians 9:18 What is my reward (wages or pay) then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
I believe Paul was rich and used his wealth and his work to spread the gospel. Not every person can do that. I have been paying out of my own pocket to spread the gospel and no one helps me but the work that I could have done would have been better if I had support. So you all can look into Jesus's eyes and tell God why Christianity isn't better since you have been here when there is work to be done and no one puts in the plumbing.
C
All translations are an interpretation.
I looked the word up in the dictionary and according to Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, it means pay or wage.
Funny how everyone else can translate it right because a lone translation means it could be a private interpretation and the Bible says there is no private interpretation. So if you have the minority translation, isn't it a private interpretation?
2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
I look at everything and not just private interpretations.
I looked the word up in the dictionary and according to Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, it means pay or wage.
Funny how everyone else can translate it right because a lone translation means it could be a private interpretation and the Bible says there is no private interpretation. So if you have the minority translation, isn't it a private interpretation?
2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
I look at everything and not just private interpretations.
G
We don't get trained by a seminary. We are trained by a MAN that has the gift of teaching. And that man was trained by a teacher who has the gift.
That man who has the gift of teacher teaches us how to study and rightly divide the word......if he is operating in his gift.
Seminaries are chocked full of unbelievers that are just morally ok. Or believers that don't have the gift. The local assembly has always provided the knowledge and know how for the Church. And the Church has always nourished the man who has the gift and then sends him out. Not some seminary.
That man who has the gift of teacher teaches us how to study and rightly divide the word......if he is operating in his gift.
Seminaries are chocked full of unbelievers that are just morally ok. Or believers that don't have the gift. The local assembly has always provided the knowledge and know how for the Church. And the Church has always nourished the man who has the gift and then sends him out. Not some seminary.
C
There is a church in my old neighborhood. They divided the church and the pastor hasn't been to seminary and he stands up front in a t-shirt. On top of that, he slept with a prostitute they were witnessing to and contracted HIV.
Not everybody that stands up in front is qualified but a seminary would more likely reject such a person because the word of God is about spiritual discipline and that kind of discipline would be found in a seminary and not on a lone wolf somewhere.
Not everybody that stands up in front is qualified but a seminary would more likely reject such a person because the word of God is about spiritual discipline and that kind of discipline would be found in a seminary and not on a lone wolf somewhere.
I don't know what you mean by "tight questions", but I believe they are good questions, especially for people who choose to quote the O.T. in support of tithing.
If the tithe is not the first or second or third or fourth or fifth or sixth or seventh or eighth or ninth, but is the tenth, then what's with calling the tenth part first-fruits?
If the tithe is not the first or second or third or fourth or fifth or sixth or seventh or eighth or ninth, but is the tenth, then what's with calling the tenth part first-fruits?
C
I've been preaching since 1980. I've only been able to record all I've taught or wrote for the last 15 years because of the advancement or quality of computers that have been able to adequately save my old teachings.
I worked. I bought resources. I didn't watch television.
I've been asked to teach a class on cults for a pastor and I thought he was crazy then and I think he is crazy now.
I've also heard one pastor say he got out of seminary and he was the assistant pastor and the senior pastor died and they wanted him to be pastor. It doesn't mean you are ready. The pastor thought they were crazy.
The amount of studying that you have to do to do this job is incredible and it is insane.
There are a lot of people who are Biblically astute but it would not substitute for getting an education.
There are learned people who kept me from going astray and there are learned people who kept me from making mistakes. You don't get that from just having a gift. You have to put that gift into discipline from a school and you have to write papers because it is the quantity of learning that you need to do this job which you don't have with just a gift.
You need information to discern and it requires a lot of information. Some of the things I've developed are tools but they took years to develop. A gift didn't just give it to me. It took discipline and a lot of hard work.
Off the top of my head, I can probably write a page or half of a page but the pastors I know can write a 15 page paper or a 30 page paper so they have more tools to be astute. They have more ability to deal with issues in the church and someone with a gift does not have that ability.
I worked. I bought resources. I didn't watch television.
I've been asked to teach a class on cults for a pastor and I thought he was crazy then and I think he is crazy now.
I've also heard one pastor say he got out of seminary and he was the assistant pastor and the senior pastor died and they wanted him to be pastor. It doesn't mean you are ready. The pastor thought they were crazy.
The amount of studying that you have to do to do this job is incredible and it is insane.
There are a lot of people who are Biblically astute but it would not substitute for getting an education.
There are learned people who kept me from going astray and there are learned people who kept me from making mistakes. You don't get that from just having a gift. You have to put that gift into discipline from a school and you have to write papers because it is the quantity of learning that you need to do this job which you don't have with just a gift.
You need information to discern and it requires a lot of information. Some of the things I've developed are tools but they took years to develop. A gift didn't just give it to me. It took discipline and a lot of hard work.
Off the top of my head, I can probably write a page or half of a page but the pastors I know can write a 15 page paper or a 30 page paper so they have more tools to be astute. They have more ability to deal with issues in the church and someone with a gift does not have that ability.
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G
Its all about discernment. maybe the man was in a t-shirt and was not applying what he taught to himself.............but his message was true?
The seminary is not going to catch some self righteous prig, that is living in his own righteousness and teaches loss of salvation................and there are 2000 of these characters to every one prostitute screwing pastor.
The seminary is not going to catch some self righteous prig, that is living in his own righteousness and teaches loss of salvation................and there are 2000 of these characters to every one prostitute screwing pastor.
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G
That is kinda all over the place for me and hard to see what you are saying?
You started preaching at 12. technology hindered your gift. You were at a disadvantage. An education is better than being biblically astute. Learned people were the ones who "saved" you, it wasn't a gift I earned it,my discipline was from a school.
Agreed that the gift of teaching takes discipline.
And your again at a disadvantage, you don't have the tools that others have.
Just my summary of this post. How I see it. Could be wrong, just how I see it.
You started preaching at 12. technology hindered your gift. You were at a disadvantage. An education is better than being biblically astute. Learned people were the ones who "saved" you, it wasn't a gift I earned it,my discipline was from a school.
Agreed that the gift of teaching takes discipline.
And your again at a disadvantage, you don't have the tools that others have.
Just my summary of this post. How I see it. Could be wrong, just how I see it.
C
My mother in law checks papers at a Christian University and the future pastors get caught for plagiarism.
Regardless of whether they go to seminary or not, dishonest pastors don't choose seminary over non-seminary.
So the fact that seminary seems so bad to you doesn't mean that non-seminarians aren't just as bad because they've had less opportunities to get caught. The reasons they don't get caught is because they don't have someone standing over them telling them they are wrong like you might get from seminary.
Non-believing pastors have corrected me for making mistakes because they have been to seminary and know education whereas any other pastor would make the mistake for not being in seminary and they would teach those errors in the pulpit.
Not everybody has a photographic memory and understanding of things. Some people are experiential learners. I put reasons up in the forums and people argue instead of examining themselves instead of taking a look at some of my objections as to why things are wrong. So instead of judging themselves, they still argue for what they want and I still see things as wrong.
Here is another example. My dad is in hospice after being in the hospital. A doctor with experience says that he wouldn't choose surgery. A gift of learning is not the same as doing a procedure over and over and over again a thousand times and seeing too many surgeries go wrong. A person with the gift of learning is going to learn experientially because they don't have the wisdom of seminary because other men would have the gift of telling them what was going to go wrong. I would love to do everything to save my Dad but the fact is that wisdom is better than trying to force an old man to suffer because you don't know what the outcome will be and there are a lot of complications that could happen and no one knows the outcome until you try.
It is also a stereotype that seminaries only produce bad pastors. I also learned in college that correlation does not prove causation. Maybe it is society that produces false conversions or maybe it is the unlearned that produces false conversions.
What you didn't see is that I want someone who is experienced. I want someone who has studied a thousand times.
Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.- 1 Tiimothy 3:6
Everyone wants these novices. People who don't go to seminary are novices. You have to study an insane amount to know if the man on the table is going to die from surgery so you have to have someone who has tried the operation thousands and thousands of times or otherwise you are trusting a novice.
Some of the things satan has thrown at the church doesn't have a manual even though it is the same lies over and over again and repackaged so that is why I'm like falling asleep at the amount of teaching I have been learning from over the years and still have to study and go to study to defend the faith. Being gifted doesn't solve those problems. It is constantly searching the scriptures and going into a huddle with other Christians that helps and asking God for the answers but I'm constantly chipping away and learning as I'm going because I haven't been to seminary. So you can have a novice but I prefer getting a lot of answers from the scholars because they have discipline and in the end, I have a better game plan than the novices who wish to have my dad on the table and my dad not recover from surgery because they are a novice and no experience with delirium. Old people can't all have surgery because it will kill them but the younger doctors are willing to make that mistake because they don't have experience. That is just like the novice pastor who hasn't been to seminary and it is your spiritual lives. When they taught me in church, no one said to have a notebook open and to take notes so for many people, what they heard went out the window and that is who is teaching and I don't want people who are that bad to teach.
Regardless of whether they go to seminary or not, dishonest pastors don't choose seminary over non-seminary.
So the fact that seminary seems so bad to you doesn't mean that non-seminarians aren't just as bad because they've had less opportunities to get caught. The reasons they don't get caught is because they don't have someone standing over them telling them they are wrong like you might get from seminary.
Non-believing pastors have corrected me for making mistakes because they have been to seminary and know education whereas any other pastor would make the mistake for not being in seminary and they would teach those errors in the pulpit.
Not everybody has a photographic memory and understanding of things. Some people are experiential learners. I put reasons up in the forums and people argue instead of examining themselves instead of taking a look at some of my objections as to why things are wrong. So instead of judging themselves, they still argue for what they want and I still see things as wrong.
Here is another example. My dad is in hospice after being in the hospital. A doctor with experience says that he wouldn't choose surgery. A gift of learning is not the same as doing a procedure over and over and over again a thousand times and seeing too many surgeries go wrong. A person with the gift of learning is going to learn experientially because they don't have the wisdom of seminary because other men would have the gift of telling them what was going to go wrong. I would love to do everything to save my Dad but the fact is that wisdom is better than trying to force an old man to suffer because you don't know what the outcome will be and there are a lot of complications that could happen and no one knows the outcome until you try.
It is also a stereotype that seminaries only produce bad pastors. I also learned in college that correlation does not prove causation. Maybe it is society that produces false conversions or maybe it is the unlearned that produces false conversions.
What you didn't see is that I want someone who is experienced. I want someone who has studied a thousand times.
Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.- 1 Tiimothy 3:6
Everyone wants these novices. People who don't go to seminary are novices. You have to study an insane amount to know if the man on the table is going to die from surgery so you have to have someone who has tried the operation thousands and thousands of times or otherwise you are trusting a novice.
Some of the things satan has thrown at the church doesn't have a manual even though it is the same lies over and over again and repackaged so that is why I'm like falling asleep at the amount of teaching I have been learning from over the years and still have to study and go to study to defend the faith. Being gifted doesn't solve those problems. It is constantly searching the scriptures and going into a huddle with other Christians that helps and asking God for the answers but I'm constantly chipping away and learning as I'm going because I haven't been to seminary. So you can have a novice but I prefer getting a lot of answers from the scholars because they have discipline and in the end, I have a better game plan than the novices who wish to have my dad on the table and my dad not recover from surgery because they are a novice and no experience with delirium. Old people can't all have surgery because it will kill them but the younger doctors are willing to make that mistake because they don't have experience. That is just like the novice pastor who hasn't been to seminary and it is your spiritual lives. When they taught me in church, no one said to have a notebook open and to take notes so for many people, what they heard went out the window and that is who is teaching and I don't want people who are that bad to teach.
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C
Yes and Jesus said to learn from the scribes in Moses' seat but not to do after they do.
Math doesn't cease to be math just because someone is immoral.
You can still learn from them and I think that what Swaggart learned in seminary years ago is probably more honest than what people are teaching today.
In fact, the Bible isn't being taught at all today unless you have one of those verse by verse churches. Churches are teaching Biblical principles.
Therefore, Swaggart is more Biblically moral as a teacher than what you have today.
Math doesn't cease to be math just because someone is immoral.
You can still learn from them and I think that what Swaggart learned in seminary years ago is probably more honest than what people are teaching today.
In fact, the Bible isn't being taught at all today unless you have one of those verse by verse churches. Churches are teaching Biblical principles.
Therefore, Swaggart is more Biblically moral as a teacher than what you have today.