Tithe!

[Yet]

2Tim.4:3-4 ...they will not put up with sound doctrine.....but will gushingly obey false 'shepherds'....

2Peter 3 through greed for money they will use fabricated teachings like tithing to rob the sheep. ....their damnation will not linger forever.

The NT is clear. It gets worse and worse up to His return. No repenting as a whole by the ecclesia. Apostasy marches on right side not the arms of the one world religion. It is happening as I write.
Few there be that will wake up in the 'church' and come out from among the Babylonian church.

 

[hornetguy]

hmmm.... which translation of 2 Peter are you quoting? I just read it, and saw nothing mentioned about "tithing"....

 

[Yet]

The ecclesia marches right into the arms of the one world religion. I repeat this because this machine keeps changing the wording.

Query: if all the verses about greed and covetiousness and wolves slobbering over your wallet is not warning about false pastors telling you that if you don't tithe, your gonna be in a bad way at the judgement, then who are these loads of scriptures talking to....Washington?

There is no verse in the NT showing us that the last days 'church' is going to repent and lign up with God's word. Even now someone is going to scoff at my warnings. Watch. The word says they will.

2Tim. But evil men and seducers will wax worse and worse, deceiving, lying, and being deceived. (For fun and profit.)

2Thess. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means for that day, (gathering unto Him) will not come except there come a falling away, (apostasy) first. In other words, a greatly deceived bunch of faithful tithe paying, man worshipping pew sitters.

Luke 18:8 ....when the Son of Man comes, will He find any faith on the earth? (In the middle of the apostate church?).

Of course He won't. The 'faith which was once delivered unto the saints' is soundly rejected by most Christians. Let this site bear witness.

As the apostasy marches on, hearts get harder and harder, scoffers get more bold and smart mouthed, again, as this site so testifies.

How do you like this bible study? I accept any invitations to your den. I'll minister the word of God for free. Keep your money. Take care of your families. Look forward to hearing from you. Smile.

 

[hornetguy]

Ok... I get your point now.
Yes, it was foretold that there would be false prophets and teachers. Woe unto anyone that uses the church to achieve personal gain through the manipulation of scripture. Televangelists are pretty much all in that boat, in my opinion. Not the TV preachers that simply have televised sermons from their worship assemblies, but we all know the "type".... The Jimmy Swaggart, Benny Hinn, Joel Osteen types that preach that God wants you to have all the money you want, and the way to get it is to send in your "seed faith" money.
I was (and am) of the belief that "tithing" is not a NT teaching. It was, and still is, a part of the old law... the one that no one could keep perfectly... which led to our Saviour's sacrifice. I have never heard anyone in the CofC, where I grew up, teach tithing. Perhaps it was mentioned casually as a guideline to go by, but for the most part, it was always taught that each Christian should give as they have been prospered, and it should be between them and God... in other words, it was up to the individual conscience of each believer.

 

[Yet]

Ok... I get your point now.
Yes, it was foretold that there would be false prophets and teachers. Woe unto anyone that uses the church to achieve personal gain through the manipulation of scripture. Televangelists are pretty much all in that boat, in my opinion. Not the TV preachers that simply have televised sermons from their worship assemblies, but we all know the "type".... The Jimmy Swaggart, Benny Hinn, Joel Osteen types that preach that God wants you to have all the money you want, and the way to get it is to send in your "seed faith" money.
I was (and am) of the belief that "tithing" is not a NT teaching. It was, and still is, a part of the old law... the one that no one could keep perfectly... which led to our Saviour's sacrifice. I have never heard anyone in the CofC, where I grew up, teach tithing. Perhaps it was mentioned casually as a guideline to go by, but for the most part, it was always taught that each Christian should give as they have been prospered, and it should be between them and God... in other words, it was up to the individual conscience of each believer.

I'm with you on what you say. Now should we talk about how the assembling of the saints has been devastated by the acceptance of the deeds of the Nicolaitans, cleric/laity division? Tithes or no tithes, this division is just as satanically inspired as the fabled tithe.

 

[hornetguy]

I would like to hear your take on the practices of the Nicolaitans... It's fairly obvious that their practices were hated by Jesus and John. I've never done much study on what the actual deeds were. Unless it was the general blending of pagan and other ritualistic practices in with the worship of God. Sounds very much like Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyers to me...

 

[hornetguy]

although, I have to hit the sack for tonight... I'll follow up tomorrow..

 

[Yet]

I would like to hear your take on the practices of the Nicolaitans... It's fairly obvious that their practices were hated by Jesus and John. I've never done much study on what the actual deeds were. Unless it was the general blending of pagan and other ritualistic practices in with the worship of God. Sounds very much like Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyers to me...

The basic premise enforces the false cleric system. It's a pagan system that reaches back to Babylon, even to Nimrod.
In Matt. 20 expounds how the world has its own system of top down authority. Then He commands 'it shall not be so among you'.

Well...it is so among us. The elevated 'pastor'. A no no!

Nico means to conquer, to rule over. Laitan is where we get laity. To rule over the laity, the flock. Jesus said that He hates this system, third chapter of Revelation. This is the great apostasy.

Now that apostasy is hidden or covered by the mystery of iniquity. The blindness of Christians to this apostasy is because of this mystery. Iniquity is blinding. The sin here is the laziness and lack of concern for God's word and His honor. Pull up a clear verse and most Christians are totally oblivious to it. It's like talking to a sinner about Christ.....total darkness unless of course the Spirit is pulling back the mantle.

Men have so distorted and wrested certain truths bringing the folks into spiritual and physical bondage. But the people allow it and 'love it so'. Jeremiah 5:31

They are the enablers of those that would keep them in bondage and defeated. Paying a man to lie to you and misrepresent God is a devilish travesty. But it continues unabated and will only worsen according to the word of God.

 

[hornetguy]

I think we are in agreement in the condemnation of pastors that "run" churches... a pastor (or what we call a preacher) is simply a teacher. They are not necessarily a spiritual leader, or overseer of the church. That role is reserved for older, more Christ-like, mature Christians. Newbies need not apply. I don't have a problem with a church, under the leadership of its spiritual leaders, hiring a full time minister/preacher/pastor... but the minister should be under the influence of the spiritual leaders, and they should keep a close eye (ear?) on what he teaches from the pulpit.
As for the papal type system of cardinals, bishops, priests, etc.... I think that is, at best, unscriptural, at worst apostacy.

 

[Yet]

I think we are in agreement in the condemnation of pastors that "run" churches... a pastor (or what we call a preacher) is simply a teacher. They are not necessarily a spiritual leader, or overseer of the church. That role is reserved for older, more Christ-like, mature Christians. Newbies need not apply. I don't have a problem with a church, under the leadership of its spiritual leaders, hiring a full time minister/preacher/pastor... but the minister should be under the influence of the spiritual leaders, and they should keep a close eye (ear?) on what he teaches from the pulpit.
As for the papal type system of cardinals, bishops, priests, etc.... I think that is, at best, unscriptural, at worst apostacy.

Actually there is no basis in the NT for the single, salaried, exalted pastor. If you take a look at 1Peter 5 and Acts 20, you'll note that there is a plurality of pastors in any given assembly.
Acts 20 Paul admonishes the 'pastors' to work secular jobs to support the needy.

I realize that you've never heard that taught from the pulpit, nor have I, nor has anybody else, and for good reason. These scriptures puts the 'hireling' out of a cushy job. So who ministers?
The elders/pastors are to teach and guide the newbees until they reach spiritual maturity then they are to be cut loose to operate in their functions everything decently and in order. See: Ephesians 4, 1Cor. 12, and Romans 12.

In the word of God, you'll not find the executive/senior pastor no where. He did not exist. All the saints ministered in turn. No one got a pay check. No one quit there job.

 

[hornetguy]

That is correct.... I don't, however, think that it is necessarily a bad thing. There are several things that are being done in worship that were not done in the early churches.. they simply weren't needed. Song books? Overhead projection of scripture and/or songs? Microphones? Many, if not all of these things have been utilized to make the assembly "better", and more attractive to the unchurched... I lean more toward the informal, casual worship assembly, where kids are encouraged, babies cry and get passed around to give mothers a little break.... basically family stuff.
I grew up in a church where suits were worn, dresses by ladies.. kids wore "Sunday clothes" including clipon ties... this was the norm up until the early to mid 70's... I'm glad we've become more comfortable in the assembly.

Personally, I would like to see a rotating group of men that have the gift of teaching just take turns speaking before the assembly, possibly with group participation of some sort.

 

[Yet]

That is correct.... I don't, however, think that it is necessarily a bad thing. There are several things that are being done in worship that were not done in the early churches.. they simply weren't needed. Song books? Overhead projection of scripture and/or songs? Microphones? Many, if not all of these things have been utilized to make the assembly "better", and more attractive to the unchurched... I lean more toward the informal, casual worship assembly, where kids are encouraged, babies cry and get passed around to give mothers a little break.... basically family stuff.
I grew up in a church where suits were worn, dresses by ladies.. kids wore "Sunday clothes" including clipon ties... this was the norm up until the early to mid 70's... I'm glad we've become more comfortable in the assembly.

Personally, I would like to see a rotating group of men that have the gift of teaching just take turns speaking before the assembly, possibly with group participation of some sort.

Oh I remember the clip on ties. Smile!
Every thing discussed in the word leads to the idea of family. Full participation, casual.
Church has morphed into the entertainer and paying audience paradigm.
'Dressed in Sunday best' tradition started in the fourth century after Constantine pronounced heathen Rome Christian. People would start wearing their 'Sunday best' because the emperor would sometimes show up in 'church'. They best look their best for Mr. C!

Formal attire, in my humble opinion, drains the feeling of family and closeness envisioned by scripture. In lends to the atmosphere of aloofness, an almost business tone, for some the chance to display their colors, their sharp dress and appearance.

This takes away interaction and fellowship. But that is already rendered impotent by virtue of the way 'church' is done anyway.

You can go to 'Comedy Central', pay for your seat, and listen to one guy, a stand up comic carry on for 40 minutes, vulgarly at best.

Church is set up the same way. You pay your entry fees, tithes so you can have a spot in the pew and listen to one guy, sometimes a comic, carry on for 40 minutes.

You hear the words 'you are dismissed' and everyone files out shaking hands, talking about the previous day's game, 'God bless now, goodbye' and we dub that Holy Spirit, blood bought, scriptural, biblical, ecclesiastical, devil stomping fellowship.
Everyone packs up their troubles and carries them out the way they carried them in.

Apostasy is hidden by the 'mystery of iniquity'. 2Thess.2:7. I'm reading a book right now titled 'The Great Dream'. I'm drawing from it here and there.
The books premise is that things will continue to get worse with Christendom. I'm in full agreement. Yes He will return for a people 'without spot or blemish', Epesians 5:27 but weigh that against ' when I return will I find faith on the earth.' Lk.18:8. So I see a remnant with their eyes open and a very sleepy apostate 'church' that is clueless, and ruthless about being and staying clueless.

Matt. 24:12 ...because sin( mystery of iniquity) shall abound, the love of many will wax COLD...
'lacking natural affection'. 2Tim. 3:3.

The Christian community is waxing cold in the love area because God did not create each one of us to just sit and listen to sermons all day long. Students that never ever graduate. We all are to minister our spiritual functions and gifts in the context of an open participatory meeting, decently and in order. This ecclesia MO was gradually jettisoned in the third and fourth centuries and replaced by the deeds of the Nicolaitans, the upper cleric and lower laity distinction.

Jesus commanded 'let there be no divisions among you'. 1Cor.12:25.

Matt. 20 ' it shall not be so among you'. What shall not be so? The cleric/laity division. Nicolaitan.
3John ...Diotrephes loved the preeminence. He wanted to be the executive pastor....quit his job, draw a pay check, be looked up to and admired as more special than everyone else. John condemned the arrogance and pride in him. Do you really suppose if John were here today, he'd change his mind and place his stamp of approval on all the preeminent, money mad, egocentrical 'pastors'? Most Christians believe so.
The 'mystery of iniquity' blinds the heart to apostasy. Mystery: secret. Iniquity: lawlessness. Whose law? Christ's law. The 'gospel that was first delivered unto the saints.' Jude 1:3.

Jesus number one desire and eternal plan was to be the Head over His assembly of saints when they gather together. To operate, by the Holy Spirit, the 'gifts given unto men' Ephesians 4:8. These gifts in every believer to minister 'one unto another'. 1Peter4:10 and Ephesians 4:12. See: 1Cor.12' Epehesians 4, and Romans 12.

But, like I said, that has all gone by the way side, deposited by scheming men (wolves that Paul warned about, rising UP, note the direction...Acts 20:29, into the dust bins of history, in the early centuries confining the body of Christ to a life long condition of apathy and impotence. Jesus relegated to the outside of the door 'knocking, and no one answering'. Rev.3:20
Welcome to the 'last hour'. 1John 2:18.

 

[hornetguy]

We are in total agreement about the money-grubbing church-founding/running "pastors" who pass the collection plate, then dump it into their pocket/bank account.
I hear too many people complain that they don't like a particular church, because they don't like the "pastor".. There's a thread on this forum right now about a woman that is upset with another in the church, so should she go "tell the pastor" about it? I asked her why on earth would she talk to the pastor instead of the elders/overseers (technically pastors). I told her to leave him alone to work on his sermon... it shouldn't concern him. All I got was crickets in the background. It was a foreign concept to her... she even said she didn't think they HAD any spiritual leaders in her church... how sad.

 

[Gr8grace]

We are in total agreement about the money-grubbing church-founding/running "pastors" who pass the collection plate, then dump it into their pocket/bank account.
I hear too many people complain that they don't like a particular church, because they don't like the "pastor".. There's a thread on this forum right now about a woman that is upset with another in the church, so should she go "tell the pastor" about it? I asked her why on earth would she talk to the pastor instead of the elders/overseers (technically pastors). I told her to leave him alone to work on his sermon... it shouldn't concern him. All I got was crickets in the background. It was a foreign concept to her... she even said she didn't think they HAD any spiritual leaders in her church... how sad.

the sad thing?

we are ALL believer priests and function in our own priesthood. The local assembly is not FEEDING the sheep and we have to run to others(that don't have the answers either) because we don't have bible doctrine in our soul to solve our OWN problems.

We got the dog and pony show. 2 hours of music,getting the bake sale and garage sale set up,15 minute break to fellowship(complain) with other believers. a 20 minute sermon on the Gospel, that has been repeated 30k times. Or a 20 min sermon on sin that has been repeated 100k times.

And the sheep are starving to death and can't even solve a simple problem like a personality that irritates us.

 

[Yet]

Well maybe God had it right in His word after all. Do we dare try something novel....His plan.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

The ecclesia marches right into the arms of the one world religion. I repeat this because this machine keeps changing the wording./QUOTE]

My suggestion is to turn your TV off, then re-read the Bible in ANY revision that can instruct you.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

I watched a group of "Yankees" today at Sams Cluh wanting to return a cart load of bread that was bought there 12 days ago, claiming they were Christians fed up with abuse. "Sir, the expiration date ended yesterday" came from the clerk at the membership checkout.

Simply do what Jesus would do today!

One TV preacher got 3 minutes of my time, saying "Seed $55", while the next taught to "Seed the literal word of God. Say the promises of God over your life and hold on to those. Get away from sin, follow Jesus word for word as much as you know how to do. The Holy Spirit will guide you in that." So I got on line and aided that preacher who said nothing about money.

 

[Yet]

The ecclesia marches right into the arms of the one world religion. I repeat this because this machine keeps changing the wording./QUOTE]

My suggestion is to turn your TV off, then re-read the Bible in ANY revision that can instruct you.

Sounds like sound advise. But what's a revision?

Also sounds like you don't agree with the scriptures I've provided. Which ones? lets talk about it.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

This thread has become mostly about loving one's money. Love of money results in keeping it in your wallet, the prrof of one's love of it. To keep it there requires "blessing" from Satan.

Many will subvert God's thinking to their own destruction. Want God's blessings on your income? Obey him.

One by one, the people refusing to honor God, are packing up in U-Hauls, hoping to find a way "Out there" where maybe their life will be better. The tithers, the true givers of offerings, all still here, prospering. There is no going around the promises of God. THe world system can "bless" anyone towing it's line, but it can't consistently carry anyone through.

 

[Test_F_i_2_Luv]

This thread has become mostly about loving one's money. Love of money results in keeping it in your wallet, the prrof of one's love of it. To keep it there requires "blessing" from Satan.

Many will subvert God's thinking to their own destruction. Want God's blessings on your income? Obey him.

One by one, the people refusing to honor God, are packing up in U-Hauls, hoping to find a way "Out there" where maybe their life will be better. The tithers, the true givers of offerings, all still here, prospering. There is no going around the promises of God. THe world system can "bless" anyone towing it's line, but it can't consistently carry anyone through.

The tithers, the true givers of offerings, all still here, prospering. There are plenty of people who have been tithing for decades or more who haven't noticed any change in their circumstances. There are plenty of people who don't tithe who are far better off than they had dreamed.

What is also true is that the church has continued for 2,000 years while the teaching of tithing hasn't been taught throughout the history of Christianity.

Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. -2 Cor 9:7