Trinity haters on CC

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Gr8grace

Guest


Abraham did what he was told by God The Son, as thus...

And they came to the place which God had said to him. And Abraham built there the altar, and arranged the wood. And he bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on the wood. And Abraham put out his hand and took the knife to slay his son.And Malek Yahwehcalled to him from the heavens and said, Abraham! Abraham! And he said, Behold me.And He said, Do not lay your hand on the boy, nor do anything to him. For now I know that you are a God-fearer, and you have not withheld your son, your only one, from Me.And Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked. And behold! A ram behind him was entangled in a thicket by its horns. And Abraham went and took the ram and offered it for a burnt offering instead of his son. And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah Will See; so that it is said until this day, In the mount of Jehovah it will be seen.(Gen 22.9 -14)



Here we have the classic story of Abraham as he is about to sacrifice his son, Isaac, to God.


But, as we can easily see, the sacrifice is to Malek Yahweh.



Nope. what needs to be seen is that the Lord Jesus Christ didn't and doesn't need us to sacrifice anything. Isaac was a shadow of what the Lord Jesus Christ IS. And Abraham knew this.

New American Standard Bible
Abraham said, "God will provide for(not in the original) Himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." So the two of them walked on together.

God will provide Himself as the lamb.
 
Nov 19, 2012
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you didnt show where it was mandated for salvation, you ignored that and tried to take it straight to a trinity debate which was not what i was asking.
On the contrary, I have shown you the basis for 'HaElohim' to mean the Triune God, and not some unknown plural number like you asserted.
 
Nov 19, 2012
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Nope. what needs to be seen is that the Lord Jesus Christ didn't and doesn't need us to sacrifice anything. Isaac was a shadow of what the Lord Jesus Christ IS. And Abraham knew this.

New American Standard Bible
Abraham said, "God will provide for(not in the original) Himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." So the two of them walked on together.

God will provide Himself as the lamb.

Burnt sacrifices where made to Yahweh The Son, even after Gen 22.
 
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jaybird88

Guest
On the contrary, I have shown you the basis for 'HaElohim' to mean the Triune God, and not some unknown plural number like you asserted.
i never said that but lets just skip it and move on.

so in order to receive salvation we must believe and accept that "HaElohim' to mean the Triune God,"

please show me the scripture that teaches this



 
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Gr8grace

Guest
i never said that but lets just skip it and move on.

so in order to receive salvation we must believe and accept that "HaElohim' to mean the Triune God,"

please show me the scripture that teaches this



You hit the nail on the head IMO. The Lord Jesus Christ is subtly being denied.
 
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From time to time someone will message me regarding my belief on the Trinity of God. Trinitarianism is monotheistic by definition and not polytheistic. The fact that there is only one God can not be over stated. I am comfortable knowing that I can never fully understand the Triune Godhead as long as I'm in this mortal body but I accept it by faith.
I thought I would post this visual aid so that there will be no confusion as to what I personally believe or understand.
Feel free to chime in :)


View attachment 142711
I think my own belief in the Trinity is in harmony with the belief taught by my church. There is one God who simultaneously is a Father (Creator), Son (Jesus Christ), and Holy Spirit (this is God when he is communicating with us). It is like a man who simultaneously is a father, husband, brother, son, and banker … or whatever.
 
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sparkman

Guest
I think my own belief in the Trinity is in harmony with the belief taught by my church. There is one God who simultaneously is a Father (Creator), Son (Jesus Christ), and Holy Spirit (this is God when he is communicating with us). It is like a man who simultaneously is a father, husband, brother, son, and banker … or whatever.
I don't think that would be a Trinitarian belief, because roles are not the same as Persons.

It would deny the ontological distinctions within the Godhead.

However, that is not to say your pastor is a non-Trinitarian. It could mean that he used an illustration that didn't reflect the reality. All of the different analogies fall short as they are based on the physical world. In addition, sometimes Trinitarian pastors don't use the best explanations, or people misunderstand them.

The best explanation I could give is that God is one in terms of essence (or being) and three in terms of Person, or personality. The Oneness describes the "what" and the Threeness describes the "who".

If I were to use human beings as an analogy, it would be like 3 different Persons occupying the same body (or essence). We don't have anything like that in creation, so it's hard to imagine. Even Siamese triplets have some degree of separation, but with God there is no separation.

Anti-Trinitarians will often say that doesn't make sense, but it is because they are viewing things according to their indoctrination and their assumption that everything about God must be reduced to their level for it to be true. They seem to refuse to consider that God's ontology could be something beyond their ability to understand.

All of us accept things that we cannot understand about God, though. For example, none of us understand how God existed since forever. We simply accept that this is true, without insisting that this truth must correspond with our experience.

The Trinity doctrine is pretty simple, and all five points are clearly taught in Scripture:

1. God is one.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4. The Holy Spirit is God.
5. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct Persons, each having a distinct Personality.

Each of the groups which deny the Trinity denies one or more of the above five points, yet all are taught clearly in Scripture.

Again, I'd recommend James White's book Forgotten Trinity in this regard.

As a young Christian, I was part of a defiant cult that claimed all others were unsaved, and one of the many reasons for their claim related to the Trinity, which they deemed to be a pagan doctrine. After coming to my senses a decade later, I realized that the Trinity doctrine is clearly taught in Scripture. The problem is that many are caught up listening to theological ignoramuses who project an air of authority, like my cult leader, Herbert Armstrong. It didn't help anything that my mother was a member of the same group.

The funny thing is that their own view of God's nature was pagan, as they were polytheists, believing in two separate god beings, God the Father and Jesus Christ. Polytheism, the belief in multiple gods, is clearly pagan. While hurling stones at Trinitarians for being pagans, they in fact were the ones holding pagan beliefs about God.
 
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i never said that but lets just skip it and move on.

so in order to receive salvation we must believe and accept that "HaElohim' to mean the Triune God,"

please show me the scripture that teaches this




The backgrounder to 'HaElohim' referring to The Triune Creator was provided in Gen 1 - which has the same 'bara' creation formula repeated at the beginning of Gen 5 before the commencement of the genealogies. In the Gen 5 narrative, Enoch is listed as having favor with 'HaElohim', and thus was taken to be with The Triune God.
 
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jaybird88

Guest
The backgrounder to 'HaElohim' referring to The Triune Creator was provided in Gen 1 - which has the same 'bara' creation formula repeated at the beginning of Gen 5 before the commencement of the genealogies. In the Gen 5 narrative, Enoch is listed as having favor with 'HaElohim', and thus was taken to be with The Triune God.
nowhere in gen 5 do i see, "the only path to salvation is understating the triune nature of our Lord"

i need to see all these elements on one sentence, not bits and pieces plucked out from here and there all over the bible. one can take bits and pieces out of context to make any point they wanted.
 
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nowhere in gen 5 do i see, "the only path to salvation is understating the triune nature of our Lord"
You see Enoch being taken by a uniplural God.



i need to see all these elements on one sentence, not bits and pieces plucked out from here and there all over the bible. one can take bits and pieces out of context to make any point they wanted.
The Gen 5 account of Enoch is pretty straight forward.....but, this requires you to know your scriptures, and you obviously do not.

Scripture is full of these examples, for Trinity-deniers like you...
 
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jaybird88

Guest
You see Enoch being taken by a uniplural God.
has nothing to do with what i asked


[/QUOTE]The Gen 5 account of Enoch is pretty straight forward.....but, this requires you to know your scriptures, and you obviously do not.

Scripture is full of these examples, for Trinity-deniers like you...
[/QUOTE]

Gen 5 does not teach what your trying to sell.

you can scream and call me every hateful name under the sun but that will never prove your point
 
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has nothing to do with what i asked
It has everything to do with it...



Gen 5 does not teach what your trying to sell.
Show us where it does not.





you can scream and call me every hateful name under the sun but that will never prove your point

'Trinity-denier' is offensive to you?

Gonna tell your mommy on me...rotflol...?!
 
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jaybird88

Guest
It has everything to do with it...

Show us where it does not.

'Trinity-denier' is offensive to you?

Gonna tell your mommy on me...rotflol...?!
it may have everything to do with it in what has been revealed to you. i have never said you were wrong. all i am saying is what has been revealed to you may not be revealed to everyone else the exact same way you see it. your way does not necessarily mean the Lords way. does that make sense.

if i was really offended, i would be losing my composure, breaking down and calling you names.

i think you really believe what you say i am just trying to figure out where you get it from.
 
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it may have everything to do with it in what has been revealed to you. i have never said you were wrong. all i am saying is what has been revealed to you may not be revealed to everyone else the exact same way you see it. your way does not necessarily mean the Lords way. does that make sense.

if i was really offended, i would be losing my composure, breaking down and calling you names.

i think you really believe what you say i am just trying to figure out where you get it from.


Let's put it more in terms that you can hopefully follow...

The NT, just like the OT, is clear that we need to worship God as He has revealed Himself – which is Triune.

Paul clearly distanced himself from his unbelieving Jewish brethren by his following belief declaration:


But I confess this to you that according to the Way, which they say is a sect, so I worship the ancestral God believing all things according to that having been written in the Law and the Prophets, having hope toward God, which these themselves also admit, of a resurrection being about to be of the dead, both of just and unjust ones. (Acts 24.14)




Clearly, Paul builds upon the previous Hebrew prophets and is now able to worship God properly ‘according to The Way’ and according to that which had previously been written in the Torah and the prophets.

Obviously, Paul is able to see what his Jewish brethren have missed. Jews have been in denial of proper worship of God – and ‘The Way’ has laid the foundation for proper worship to God.

Proper worship of God, according to God:

But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeks such, the ones worshiping Him. God is spirit, and the ones worshiping Him must worship in spirit and truth.
(John 4.23 - 24)


This proper worship is as a Triune entity:


  • Father
  • Son (Truth)
  • Spirit
 
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jaybird88

Guest


Let's put it more in terms that you can hopefully follow...

The NT, just like the OT, is clear that we need to worship God as He has revealed Himself – which is Triune.

Paul clearly distanced himself from his unbelieving Jewish brethren by his following belief declaration:


But I confess this to you that according to the Way, which they say is a sect, so I worship the ancestral God believing all things according to that having been written in the Law and the Prophets, having hope toward God, which these themselves also admit, of a resurrection being about to be of the dead, both of just and unjust ones. (Acts 24.14)




Clearly, Paul builds upon the previous Hebrew prophets and is now able to worship God properly ‘according to The Way’ and according to that which had previously been written in the Torah and the prophets.

Obviously, Paul is able to see what his Jewish brethren have missed. Jews have been in denial of proper worship of God – and ‘The Way’ has laid the foundation for proper worship to God.

Proper worship of God, according to God:

But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeks such, the ones worshiping Him. God is spirit, and the ones worshiping Him must worship in spirit and truth.
(John 4.23 - 24)


This proper worship is as a Triune entity:


  • Father
  • Son (Truth)
  • Spirit
you keep trying to make this about 1 Lord or triune worship. i want to see the triune requirements for salvation.
 
Nov 19, 2012
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Simple enough, even for you...

you keep trying to make this about 1 Lord or triune worship. i want to see the triune requirements for salvation.

And it shall be that everyone who shall worship the name Lord will be saved. (Acts 2.21)
 
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jaybird88

Guest
Re: Simple enough, even for you...


And it shall be that everyone who shall worship the name Lord will be saved. (Acts 2.21)
name = three?
i dont think i see what you see. can we please just agree to disagree.

thank you for sharing this passage. its a good one. i like what peter says about Jesus and the miracles He did.
 
Nov 19, 2012
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Re: Simple enough, even for you...

name = three?
i dont think i see what you see. can we please just agree to disagree.

thank you for sharing this passage. its a good one. i like what peter says about Jesus and the miracles He did.

Its so simple.

You claimed to know scripture.

Who has the Name, Lord?

 
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jaybird88

Guest
Re: Simple enough, even for you...

Its so simple.

You claimed to know scripture.

Who has the Name, Lord?

i would think he is referring to Jesus. Jesus instructed we can ask the Father in His name (Jesus) and it will be given.

i dont see here that peter is teaching anyone to understand the Father or Son in triune natures or that salvation can only be obtained by seeing/understanding triune nature. but this is only what i see (or dont see) and i am not an authority on this.