Tithe!

[StandingFirmInChrist]

Exegeting Matthew 23:23
by Ronald W Robey (that's me)

Woe to you, (sorrows, calamities)
scribes (lawyers)
and Pharisees (religious leaders)
Hypocrites! (actors; those who put on a pretense)
For ye tithe mint, and anise, and cummin (you give a tenth of your garden products)
and have neglected (you’ve failed to observe)
the weightier matters (more important things)
of the Law (the Mosaic Law)
Judgment, Mercy and Faith (Justice & Compassion towards man, & Trust in God)
These (tithing of garden products)
ought ye to have done (you should have done)
and not to leave the others undone (not neglecting Justice & Compassion towards man & Trust in God)

The Mosaic Law stated that God’s holy tithe was to consist of crops and livestock from within the boundaries of the land of Canaan. (Leviticus 27:30-33; Deuteronomy 6:1-3; 12:1,10-11) Jesus was commending the scribes and Pharisees for keeping the command concerning tithes (tithing mint, anise and cummin, i.e.; agricultural produce) and said they should be doing exactly what they were doing. Why? Because that is what the Law required, and as citizens of the land to which the Law applied, it was their duty to obey the Mosaic Law given to the children of Israel just as we are to obey the laws in the state/county in which we live today.

Leviticus 27:30-33 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD’S: it is holy unto the LORD. And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof. And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD. He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed.

Deuteronomy 12:1 These are the statutes and judgments, which ye shall observe to do in the land, which the LORD God of thy fathers giveth thee to possess it, all the days that ye live upon the earth.

Deuteronomy 12:6 And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks:

The Mosaic Law commanded tithes of crops and livestock. (Notice in this verse God made a distinction between firstlings and tithes. So much for the claim that firstborn animals were tithies. LOL)
Deuteronomy 12:8 Ye shall not do after all the things that we do here this day, every man whatsoever is right in his own eyes.

Man could not do what seemed right in his own eyes. The commanded tithe was crops and livestock, not money. Man was forbidden to tithe money.

Jesus was not saying ‘tithe money in Matthew 23:23. Not at all. He was saying continue tithing that which the Law requires.

Those who insist that tithing should be done, are not even tithing in the manner that God decreed, i.e.; agricultural produce and livestock, to sons of Levi, widows, orphans, & foreigners living in Israel, and tithing to self. If they don’t tithe as God decreed, they really have no business telling others to tithe.

Judge not, that ye be not judged.

 

[fredoheaven]

Abram gave Melchizedek a single one time tithe(not plural "tithes") on war spoils(Gen 14:20), not on earnings. He came to the aid of his Nephew Lot, who had gotten himself into trouble(Gen 14:12).

War spoils from saving his nephew and wages/earnings from a job are two different things. This is a comparison of apples and oranges.

If people are really going to use Abram as an example, though, they should keep in mind that Abram actually didn't keep anything for himself. If one reads a little farther in the chapter(Gen 14:23), this is clearly stated. If tithing proponents are going to use Abram as an example, then they shouldn't be keeping anything for themselves.

Since Abram is being used as an example, I'd be curious to know if anyone can supply Biblical evidence of Abram paying a tithe on another occasion on actual earnings? In other words, is there evidence that Abram tithed on what he earned through his occupation/job/profession, or did he just pay the one war-time tithe on spoils?

Abram gave Melchizedek a single one time tithe(not plural "tithes") on war spoils(Gen 14:20), not on earnings. He came to the aid of his Nephew Lot, who had gotten himself into trouble(Gen 14:12).

War spoils from saving his nephew and wages/earnings from a job are two different things. This is a comparison of apples and oranges.
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The issue seems not to determine what was given (spoils or savings, wages or earnings) but the performance of giving. The principle sounds like, Am I really giving the tenth or not?
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If people are really going to use Abram as an example, though, they should keep in mind that Abram actually didn't keep anything for himself. If one reads a little farther in the chapter(Gen 14:23), this is clearly stated. If tithing proponents are going to use Abram as an example, then they shouldn't be keeping anything for themselves.
==================================================================================

After the tenth (10% of the spoils), there remains 90% of the spoils yet the remainder which we don’t know what the partition was disributed among the King and the young men that ate, the portion of men which went with Abram, as well as Anel, Eschol and Mamre. In the New Testament the tenth(10%) so far was given more weight than the remains although the thought is that Abram given all. What I am keeping personally right now is the tenth plus more. In so far fredoheaven, cannot compare mine to Abraham but at least I am lining myself in the tenth which is scripturally taught. The tenth is the minimum or base fredoheaven is giving.

2 Corinthians 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

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Since Abram is being used as an example, I'd be curious to know if anyone can supply Biblical evidence of Abram paying a tithe on another occasion on actual earnings? In other words, is there evidence that Abram tithed on what he earned through his occupation/job/profession, or did he just pay the one war-time tithe on spoils?
==================================================================================

There’s no need for further evidence. “The just shall live by faith.” I just don't know if this still hold true, "When the bible is silent, we must be silent" otherwise it will be a mere speculation. God bless...

 

[StandingFirmInChrist]

You are only kidding yourself, fredo.

You are NOT keeping the tenth that is Scripturally taught.

The Scriptures teach that the tenth Abram gave was of the spoils of war.,... not of his own property. Nor of his own income.

The only other tenth that is Scripturally taught are agricultural or taxes. (See Leviticus 27:30-33 & 1 Samuel 8)

 

[fredoheaven]

You are only kidding yourself, fredo.

You are NOT keeping the tenth that is Scripturally taught.

The Scriptures teach that the tenth Abram gave was of the spoils of war.,... not of his own property. Nor of his own income.

The only other tenth that is Scripturally taught are agricultural or taxes. (See Leviticus 27:30-33 & 1 Samuel 8)

Well sir, the difference made is the "principle lies in the tenth." Yes I am not speaking of the the item. A merry go round, I guess...What you advocate is agricultural products which I have no problem. As said in my other posts, spoils can be source of tithe, but you don't believe that yet the record is there, I said money can be used as tithe on my other post, I gave scriptural support, you said no monetary tithe. I said in my earlier post God owns everything and you can't just believe that is not possible to tithe from what we possess. But what if I can show a verse in the bible that there is what I can possibly tithes all that I possess would you now believe? Forget principle, forget everything and maybe we're two worlds apart. thanks

 

[StandingFirmInChrist]

No, spoils cannot be the source of the tithe. They ceased being the source of the tithe when the Law was established. The Bible never says that God allowed spoils as tithe after the Law.


God says that His holy tithe is agricultural, you say it can be money or spoils.

Reminds me of another character who deceived the first couple on Earth with the words, "Yea, hath God said thou shalt not,...?"

"Yea, hath God said that His holy tithe is agricultural? God knows it is not agricultural only,..."

 

[fredoheaven]

No, spoils cannot be the source of the tithe. They ceased being the source of the tithe when the Law was established. The Bible never says that God allowed spoils as tithe after the Law.


God says that His holy tithe is agricultural, you say it can be money or spoils.

Reminds me of another character who deceived the first couple on Earth with the words, "Yea, hath God said thou shalt not,...?"

"Yea, hath God said that His holy tithe is agricultural? God knows it is not agricultural only,..."

What an insinuation! The PRINCIPLE was there, the RECORD was there. So what am to to believe... of course the scripture, the very words of God! Your statement in blue color, are they not your supporting verses, are you? WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, they aren't part of the Tithe verses. Sorry...

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Whenever it was impractical to transport a tithe, it was lawful to render it's value in gold, silver, copper, cobalt, salt, etc., however a Levite receiving it accepted the exchange. Tithes also included precious things a tither dedicated as holy.

Secondly, I note that there still remains in this thread a poor understanding and use of Hebrews chapter 7, which clarifies this whole issue.

In it a reader ought to realize that two priesthoods were contrasted. The oldest, original priesthood was that of Melchizedek. That priesthood received tithes, at least the one from Abraham. That made that "King of Salem" greater than Abraham, the priest blessing Abraham, the greater blessing t he lesser. That eternal priest is not connected to any tribe of men.

The Law of Moses was added because of sin, necessitating a second priesthood of mortal men, sons of Aaron and their sons. Only a Levite could be a priest. That made that priesthood limited, subject to death of the last priest. The tithe was commanded of men that die, Levites, to take tithes of the other 11 tribes, for the support of the ministry.

Jesus, of the tribe of Judah, could not lawfully be a priest among the Aaronic order. By his death and resurrection he was of the eternal order (of Melchisedek), having always been of that order from the beginning in eternity past. Through Melchizedek Christ Jesus received tithes of men, and the Levites tithed to him by way of the seed in Abraham's loin.

It is there written that the tithes are received by that eternal order yet at the time of the writing of Hebrews. Jesus is High Priest of that eternal order, higher than any high priest of the Aaronic family of Levites, the Temple priests receiving tithes of lesser Levitites.

I am a lesser "priest and king" of the eternal priesthood order, not being a minister at the altar. I must pass my tithe on up the order, not keeping it for myself. I am not commanded to tithe, not fearing a curse upon me for not tithing. Understand that a non-tither can't qualify for the blessing of the tithe. Tithing has always been a reasonable sharing of wealth from God, all parties of which are blessed. It's an eternal economic system from God that works wherever tithes are given and received and the tithers blessed.

Tithing is optional for Christians since it isn't commanded of us.

However, the Church as a whole is given this commandment. 1 Corinthians 9:13-14 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

That means that in the same manner the priesthood of old lived off receipt of tithes, we too can't rightly "muzzle the ox" by not likewise supporting our ministers of the gospel such that they have no lack, that the "storehouse" is filled.

Some come adding more confusion by claiming the second letter of 2 Cor 9 is taken to describe how to give to supposedly support the ministry.
That isn't true.

Backing up to chapter 8 we learn that a gift was being asked of the Corinthians to give like the Macedonian churches greatly contributed to the needs of the saints being persecuted. That gift was not for Paul, or Titus, but for suffering Christians needing immediate aid. The basis of giving for that purpose is 2 Corinthians 9:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

Distortion of that enters in through ignorance of the whole context of what was sought by Paul and Titus of them.

Besides tithes, the old covenant called for gifts and offerings too, and even commanded a separate "poverty tithe" for relief of the needy.

In summary, God ordained a proven system that supports the ministry (by tithes and offerings) and the poor by gifts and offerings such as in 2 Cor 9, a system that still works. It's optional for any Christian to opt out of that system, declining the blessings following. In fact, any minister, like Paul, may decline to accept support of any kind from fellow Christians, though ought not ever complain about lack of funding. So it is many ministers choose to go "build tents", sell cars, supporting their ministry of their own resources.

 

[fredoheaven]

This also is not a tithe verse, but I would like to share:

Ecclesiastes 9:11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Moving on, I say again it's quite optional to support a ministry at all, but not if a person is among a congregation that voted to build a sanctuary, hire a minister, and incur other expenses to provide for a place to fellowship. That births a firm commitment for each member to yield their fair share. Usually a church that has a seat left for a visitor will have a majority there for some years that has committed to support that church, and they do that in part for the visitors as space and resources permit. If the visitor returns and joins that congregation, then the righteous hope is that new member will get involved in reasonable financial support. The idea is like if you order a nice meal in a restaurant, it's unwise to leave paying only a tip. Pay the bill first, add the tip.

It ought to be a true saying that those who take the least from their full wallets complain the most about how the more from other wallets is spent.

What frequently happens is a minority of newer members are the first and only members to complain about fundraising, even an occasional mention of the need for more financial support, not to mention an uttering of the word "tithe". Those founders that grow from majority to minority still won't be the complainers, realizing all ministries have expenses and find needs people in and out of that church need help with.

If everyone took those scriptures I posted in #307 to heart, there should be no need for appeals for support except for some emergency such as Paul was appealing to his churches for to aid other saints in dire need. That's when the Lord lets us determine in our "own heart" how much to give an offering over and above their own needs, both family and congregation. The only admonition is reaping, little if little is given when it could be more, and much when giving much in faith. Possibly few Christians hear the Holy Spirit speak an amount, and if they do hear, they might be frightened. So it perhaps why He lets us determine in our timid hearts a lesser gift with reduced blessing. Those promises in those verses are proportionally conditional, while the blessings on tithes is set high and firmly. Most will never taste of that blessing.

It might be interesting to see more excuses added to my list.

 

[Test_F_i_2_Luv]

Test_F_i_2_Luv: Abram gave Melchizedek a single one time tithe(not plural "tithes") on war spoils(Gen 14:20), not on earnings. He came to the aid of his Nephew Lot, who had gotten himself into trouble(Gen 14:12).

War spoils from saving his nephew and wages/earnings from a job are two different things. This is a comparison of apples and oranges.

fredoheaven: The issue seems not to determine what was given (spoils or savings, wages or earnings) but the performance of giving. The principle sounds like, Am I really giving the tenth or not?

Test_F_i_2_Luv: The original issue, as asked by the Wesil when he started the thread, is whether or not we are required to give 10%(a tithe) of our income to God. Wesil stated that he has been doing so. He also state that he had heard in a sermon recently that tithing was O.T. and not a N.T. requirement.

Your comment/question potentially expands the principle of giving. Not only would one be giving on earnings/wages/salary, but potentially on assets, gifts, inheritance, etc. The question becomes: are you giving 10% on everything?

Abram's tithe to Melchizedek has nothing to do with the current day teachings on giving. Abram gave on war spoils, not on earnings/salary/wages. He recovered what was lost in war. The text is irrelevant to tithing on income because it had nothing to do with an occupation/job/profession.

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Test_F_i_2_Luv: If people are really going to use Abram as an example, though, they should keep in mind that Abram actually didn't keep anything for himself. If one reads a little farther in the chapter(Gen 14:23), this is clearly stated. If tithing proponents are going to use Abram as an example, then they shouldn't be keeping anything for themselves.

fredoheaven: After the tenth (10% of the spoils), there remains 90% of the spoils yet the remainder which we don’t know what the partition was disributed among the King and the young men that ate, the portion of men which went with Abram, as well as Anel, Eschol and Mamre. In the New Testament the tenth(10%) so far was given more weight than the remains although the thought is that Abram given all. What I am keeping personally right now is the tenth plus more. In so far fredoheaven, cannot compare mine to Abraham but at least I am lining myself in the tenth which is scripturally taught. The tenth is the minimum or base fredoheaven is giving.

2 Corinthians 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

Test_F_i_2_Luv: Abram's tithe on war spoils is a poor example. Yet, if we are going to use it for determining our giving, we can not deny that Abram kept none of the spoils for himself.

As I read the passage about Abram's tithe, I see Abram putting more emphasis on the 90%. Notice the discussion on the 10%(orange) and the discussion on the rest(red):

Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High, and he blessed Abram, saying,

“Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
Creator of heaven and earth.
And praise be to God Most High,
who delivered your enemies into your hand.”

Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything.

The king of Sodom said to Abram, “Give me the people and keep the goods for yourself.”

But Abram said to the king of Sodom, “With raised hand I have sworn an oath to the Lord, God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth, that I will accept nothing belonging to you, not even a thread or the strap of a sandal, so that you will never be able to say, ‘I made Abram rich.’ I will accept nothing but what my men have eaten and the share that belongs to the men who went with me—to Aner, Eshkol and Mamre. Let them have their share.” -Gen 14:18-24

Looking at this passage closer, it appears that the tither should get bread and wine before giving his/her tithe to the priest. Secondly, the 90% should go to a different individual.

2 Cor 10:12 is about boasting about one's work. 2 Cor 10:13 provides clarity.

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Test_F_i_2_Luv: Since Abram is being used as an example, I'd be curious to know if anyone can supply Biblical evidence of Abram paying a tithe on another occasion on actual earnings? In other words, is there evidence that Abram tithed on what he earned through his occupation/job/profession, or did he just pay the one war-time tithe on spoils?

fredoheaven: There’s no need for further evidence. “The just shall live by faith.” I just don't know if this still hold true, "When the bible is silent, we must be silent" otherwise it will be a mere speculation. God bless...

Test_F_i_2_Luv: The Bible isn't silent on tithing. In the O.T. there were at least 3 tithes paid by certain Israelites. There was a Levitical tithe, a Festival tithe, and a Poor tithe. The tithes add up to over 20%. In addition, Israelites gave firstfruits and offerings. We aren't under the O.T. law. Most of us aren't in the agriculture/livestock business.

The N.T. rule is simple...

Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful give. -2 Cor 9:7

For you, Fredoheaven, that may be 10% plus a bit. I am not here to tell people what God is laying on their hearts. What I am against and opposed to is a legal and binding 10% on everyone. It would not be Biblical to claim that God is asking for a minimum of 10% from everyone. In some cases, He asks less. In other cases, He asks more.

Tithing was an O.T. system, there were multiple types of tithes adding up to over 20%, and tithing was done on agricultural products and livestock. In addition, there were First-fruits and offerings, which are different and separate from tithes.

If preachers going to use the O.T. to teach the tithing, then they ought to be teaching it correctly: At least 3 tithes plus first-fruits and offerings, tithes were on agriculture/livestock, tithing wasn't always done(Year of Jubilee), tithing wasn't done by everyone, tithers actually partied/celebrated with part of a tithe, livestock tithes were on the 10th animal(ie, no tithe if one only had 9 animals!), etc.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

New testament preachers don't need to teach tithing from the old testament. I posted all a Christian needs to rest on.

Now I wonder why anyone would visit a church that has accepted tithing as the primary means of supporting their ministry, then voice complaint about that. It would be as absurd as someone not believing in music during worship, when the congregation has a choir and orchestra they've appreciated for a century. Your objection will be offensive to them! Go away! If that offends, then the smart thing to do is try another church that believes the way you do. So if a congregation accepts required tithing and that offends you, perhaps assemble your own congregation and try running the ministry on tips from the members. In India and probably many other places on earth many Christian congregations meet under a grove of trees or a tarp, or a cave, or bamboo roof and are happy with that, having a place for the very poor to worship.

 

[Billyd]

When I read the scriptures posted here, all I could think of was how far people will go to keep that which already belongs to God. IMHO, there are plenty of excuses not to tithe, but there is one good reason to tithe. God loves the results of a tithing congregation that spreads the love of the gospel to the community that it represents and to the rest of the world.

 

[Test_F_i_2_Luv]

When I read the scriptures posted here, all I could think of was how far people will go to keep that which already belongs to God. IMHO, there are plenty of excuses not to tithe, but there is one good reason to tithe. God loves the results of a tithing congregation that spreads the love of the gospel to the community that it represents and to the rest of the world.

You know congregation members giving all 3 tithes?

I would agree that God loves the results of one who gives cheerfully, regardless of the amount it is.

 

[Yet]

When I read the scriptures posted here, all I could think of was how far people will go to keep that which already belongs to God. IMHO, there are plenty of excuses not to tithe, but there is one good reason to tithe. God loves the results of a tithing congregation that spreads the love of the gospel to the community that it represents and to the rest of the world.

The well to do man tithes....no sweat! The poor man tithes and sweats bullets. That's not of God. Been there, done that.

Furthermore, non tithers do have an excuse not to tithe, many excuses. Here's a few.

One: Today's tithing MO is not in His word. That should be enough to close down the debate but not for those who have been pupitized to death.

Two: It puts you under a curse, Gal.3:10.....been there, done that.

Three: It enables theft by one who takes the preeminence above the folks. Exalting oneself above the sheep and then demanding ten percent of everbody's gross, a no-no! He was tired of working in a sweat shop.See:3John

Four: It enables the self exalted one with the forbidden title, see: Matt.23, to a life time of laziness, not working a secular job, but feeding off of the widows and the poor while sitting behind a computer for hours...what's he looking at anyhow? He delights in mutton. see: Acts 20. Dont equate the itenerent preacher, who has a right to support, with the elders in the local body down the street. I know where you r headed. I'll play like Barney Fife and nip it in the bud right now. Honor:greek: timees: means respect. The word for wages is opsonion. It was not used in the scripture you were about to sling.

Conclusion: If the modern pastor is not validated by scripture but is actually renounced by scripture, then who gets the tithe money? Furthermore, the widows and the poor were taken care of in the old covenant by the tithe. Today the widow and the poor are expected to tithe. How did that come about? Clue: the traditions of self serving men who were looking to cash in!

 

[phil112]

[h=3]Tithe![/h]

.......NO!

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Test_F_i_2_Luv:

Test_F_i_2_Luv: If people are really going to use Abram as an example, though, they should keep in mind that Abram actually didn't keep anything for himself. If one reads a little farther in the chapter(Gen 14:23), this is clearly stated. If tithing proponents are going to use Abram as an example, then they shouldn't be keeping anything for themselves.
QUOTE]

There is no objection in scriptures for a man to offer multiple tithes instead of the required minimum. He will honor a 100% tithe far more than a 10% tithe, crediting future generations like God did for Israel throughout many generations because of Abraham's offering to the eternal priesthood. The Levitical-based tithes were credited back to the eternal priesthood through Abraham to Melchizedek, received by the Lord and High Priest Jesus in Heaven, for the benefit of men who do God's commandments within both covenants.

Paul taught the Corinthian church that he and any other minister is allowed to decline financial support from anyone, to keep people from damaging his ministry over money suspicions. Abram used the same reason for not keeping what was rightfully his, that no man could claim those defeated kings' fortunes made Abram rich. God richly blessed him regardless of how much his men consumed.

What the Western civilization is misunderstanding is the blessing of the kingdom of God style of blessing, not based on this worldly economic system that sucks up much of the riches God supplies, for fleshly comfort.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

You know congregation members giving all 3 tithes?

I would agree that God loves the results of one who gives cheerfully, regardless of the amount it is.

The blessing you refer to is conditionally proportional to how much one offers. You are free to offer and receive according to your faith level. Give pennies, receive pennies. Giving cheerfully is only one of the conditions that lead to abundant supply of seed to sow and meat to eat.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

.......NO!

Your opinion carries the weight of opinion. The scriptures go way past your opinion!

 

[Word_Swordsman]

You know congregation members giving all 3 tithes?

I would agree that God loves the results of one who gives cheerfully, regardless of the amount it is.

I have one less small church to teach/preach at when needed. They all submitted, among two dozen people, as much as $17 a week, their electric bill a steady $65 a month. The lights were cut off, but the water bill was paid. That's typical of congregations that follow your rule of thumb. It is a lie of the Devil that God blesses all offerings the same. There is no scripture to support that lie. Blessings from God are always proportional-conditional.

 

[StandingFirmInChrist]

It is a lie of the devil when one says that one must tithe money in order to receive certain blessings. There is no Scriptural support for withholding of blessings for not tithing money.

However, the Word of God does state that God gives to us all things freely.

This means that there is no price tag on the blessings of God,... they are free of charge. He does not withhold blessings from anyone for not tithing their money. He never commanded a tithe of money be given to Tabernacle, Temple, Synagogue or Church. So He will not withhold from one for not obeying a command He never authorized.