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You didn't answer my question. When did I make a declaration against the ecclesia. And you don't understand something. When one teaches the truth, that truth will set the folks free, albeit backed by the Holy Spirit.
Where in scripture does it say a church building is the storehouse? No such language in the NT.
Modern organized religion: maybe 4 percent of all the tithes, according to research, google it, goes to the poor.
First century ecclesia: all free will offerings went to the itenerent preachers and the poor. No Reverend Wonderful got a dime. In fact there was no Reverend Wonderful in the first century ecclesia. Oh how so many Christians despise the word.
Something stinks!
Where in scripture does it say a church building is the storehouse? No such language in the NT.
Modern organized religion: maybe 4 percent of all the tithes, according to research, google it, goes to the poor.
First century ecclesia: all free will offerings went to the itenerent preachers and the poor. No Reverend Wonderful got a dime. In fact there was no Reverend Wonderful in the first century ecclesia. Oh how so many Christians despise the word.
Something stinks!
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Abram gave Melchizedek a single one time tithe(not plural "tithes") on war spoils(Gen 14:20), not on earnings. He came to the aid of his Nephew Lot, who had gotten himself into trouble(Gen 14:12).
War spoils from saving his nephew and wages/earnings from a job are two different things. This is a comparison of apples and oranges.
If people are really going to use Abram as an example, though, they should keep in mind that Abram actually didn't keep anything for himself. If one reads a little farther in the chapter(Gen 14:23), this is clearly stated. If tithing proponents are going to use Abram as an example, then they shouldn't be keeping anything for themselves.
Since Abram is being used as an example, I'd be curious to know if anyone can supply Biblical evidence of Abram paying a tithe on another occasion on actual earnings? In other words, is there evidence that Abram tithed on what he earned through his occupation/job/profession, or did he just pay the one war-time tithe on spoils?
War spoils from saving his nephew and wages/earnings from a job are two different things. This is a comparison of apples and oranges.
If people are really going to use Abram as an example, though, they should keep in mind that Abram actually didn't keep anything for himself. If one reads a little farther in the chapter(Gen 14:23), this is clearly stated. If tithing proponents are going to use Abram as an example, then they shouldn't be keeping anything for themselves.
Since Abram is being used as an example, I'd be curious to know if anyone can supply Biblical evidence of Abram paying a tithe on another occasion on actual earnings? In other words, is there evidence that Abram tithed on what he earned through his occupation/job/profession, or did he just pay the one war-time tithe on spoils?
Hi sir,
Here is what Mr. Webster telling us about.
1. In a general sense, the cause, source or origin of any thing; that from which a thing proceeds; as the principle of motion; the principles of action.
2. Element; constituent part; primordial substance.
Modern philosophers suppose matter to be one simple principle, or solid extension diversified by its various shapes.
3. Being that produces any thing; operative cause.
The soul of man is an active principle.
4. In science, a truth admitted either without proof, or considered as having been before proved. In the former sense, it is synonymous with axiom; in the latter, with the phrase, established principle.
5. Ground; foundation; that which supports an assertion, an action, or a series of actions or of reasoning. On what principle can this be affirmed or denied? He justifies his proceedings on the principle of expedience or necessity. He reasons on sound principles.
6. A general truth; a law comprehending many subordinate truths; as the principles of morality, of law, of government, &c.
7. Tenet; that which is believed, whether truth or not, but which serves as a rule of action or the basis of a system; as the principles of the Stoics, or of the Epicureans.
8. A principle of human nature, is a law of action in human beings; a constitutional propensity common to the human species. Thus it is a principle of human nature to resent injuries and repel insults.
PRIN'CIPLE, v.t. To establish or fix in tenets; to impress with any tenet, good or ill; chiefly used in the participle.
Men have been principled with an opinion, that they must not consult reason in things of religion.
1. To establish firmly in the mind.
What about the scriptures? Here is to demonstrate if you like how the word “principle” as used in the Bible.
Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Hebrews 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
1 Peter 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Now if the principle you mean is Law, then the doctrine of Christ is of the Law, repentance is of the Law, faith toward God is of the Law, Baptisms is of the Law, and resurrection of the dead is of the Law and who wants to get there?
The lively oracles, the first principles do not refer to the Law of Moses but rather to the Word of God.
Okay for the “one time argument”, let me put it this clearly…
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
God bless,
Here is what Mr. Webster telling us about.
1. In a general sense, the cause, source or origin of any thing; that from which a thing proceeds; as the principle of motion; the principles of action.
2. Element; constituent part; primordial substance.
Modern philosophers suppose matter to be one simple principle, or solid extension diversified by its various shapes.
3. Being that produces any thing; operative cause.
The soul of man is an active principle.
4. In science, a truth admitted either without proof, or considered as having been before proved. In the former sense, it is synonymous with axiom; in the latter, with the phrase, established principle.
5. Ground; foundation; that which supports an assertion, an action, or a series of actions or of reasoning. On what principle can this be affirmed or denied? He justifies his proceedings on the principle of expedience or necessity. He reasons on sound principles.
6. A general truth; a law comprehending many subordinate truths; as the principles of morality, of law, of government, &c.
7. Tenet; that which is believed, whether truth or not, but which serves as a rule of action or the basis of a system; as the principles of the Stoics, or of the Epicureans.
8. A principle of human nature, is a law of action in human beings; a constitutional propensity common to the human species. Thus it is a principle of human nature to resent injuries and repel insults.
PRIN'CIPLE, v.t. To establish or fix in tenets; to impress with any tenet, good or ill; chiefly used in the participle.
Men have been principled with an opinion, that they must not consult reason in things of religion.
1. To establish firmly in the mind.
What about the scriptures? Here is to demonstrate if you like how the word “principle” as used in the Bible.
Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Hebrews 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
1 Peter 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Now if the principle you mean is Law, then the doctrine of Christ is of the Law, repentance is of the Law, faith toward God is of the Law, Baptisms is of the Law, and resurrection of the dead is of the Law and who wants to get there?
The lively oracles, the first principles do not refer to the Law of Moses but rather to the Word of God.
Okay for the “one time argument”, let me put it this clearly…
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
God bless,
The major flaw in your argument is the fact that the doctrines of Christ; Baptism; Repentance; Faith; and the Resurrection of the Dead are all doctrines taught by the Apostles after the Law. They are NOT ordinances of the Law, but of the Church.
Tithing was NEVER TAUGHT as an ordinance of the Church in the Word of God in any of the New Testamenr epistles.
You cannot mix Law and Grace. The ordinance of tithing is Law.
Tithing was NEVER TAUGHT as an ordinance of the Church in the Word of God in any of the New Testamenr epistles.
You cannot mix Law and Grace. The ordinance of tithing is Law.
There is a record in the scriptures that money is used for tithes. In Deut. 12:15-18, all the produce of the soil (agriculture) was to be tithed and these tithes with the first lings of the flock and herd (Animal, still agricultural.) were to be eaten in the Metropolis, but in case of distance permission is given to convert to money. which is to be taken to appointed place to purchase whatsoever is needed for the festive meal upon arrival.
Deut. 14:24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
Deut. 14:25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:
So money is also for the tithe.
God bless
Deut. 14:24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
Deut. 14:25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:
So money is also for the tithe.
God bless
You are being intentionally deceptive, fredo.
First off, Deuteronomy 14:24-25 does NOT say that the money is titheable at all.
Read verse 26, and you will see what that money is to be used for,... TO BUY BACK THE TITHE, Yep, the farmer was to buy tithes with that money.
But notice also, the tithes the farmer bought with that money did NOT go to the House of God. Rather, the farmer and his household themselves were to EAT the tithe.
First off, Deuteronomy 14:24-25 does NOT say that the money is titheable at all.
Read verse 26, and you will see what that money is to be used for,... TO BUY BACK THE TITHE, Yep, the farmer was to buy tithes with that money.
But notice also, the tithes the farmer bought with that money did NOT go to the House of God. Rather, the farmer and his household themselves were to EAT the tithe.
Matthew 23:23 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Jesus said we "ought to pay tithe"
that's all I need, one little verse of hearing the master say "you ought to"
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Jesus said we "ought to pay tithe"
that's all I need, one little verse of hearing the master say "you ought to"
From this passage I can conclude:
1. Before Calvary, the O.T. system of tithing was in effect.
2. Before Calvary, tithing was done on agricultural products. From reading the O.T., I know that tithing was also done on livestock(see my signature line). What I am not seeing in the O.T. is tithing on money - none of the multiple types of tithes mentioned in the O.T. was on wages/salaries of money. If money was involved, it was a redemption penalty(Lev 27:27).
3. There are weightier matters of importance, such as judgement, mercy, and faith that are more important than tithing, let alone the modern mis-teaching on the matter.
On a side note, Jesus' words must also be frustrating for the "though shalt not judge" crowd. Jesus emphasized the importance of judging in Matt 23. Just as many are mis-taught that we are to tithe, many are also mis-taught on the issue of judging; namely that judging is always wrong.
It doesn't appear that Euphemia will be able to respond to this, so I leave this as open to other pro-tithers.
If you are tithing and and taking the full tithe to a church, why?
According to the O.T., only 1/10 of the tithes were brought to the storehouse(translated storeroom in some versions). Furthermore, it was done by the Levites & Priests...not by the Israelites.
"A priest descended from Aaron is to accompany the Levites when they receive the tithes, and the Levites are to bring a tenth of the tithes up to the house of our God, to the storerooms of the treasury. -Neh 10:37b-38
So, to properly tithe, 1/10 should go to a church(if one equates a church with the O.T. "storehouse") and it should be taken there by the Levites and Priests.
If you investigate this, note that the O.T. doesn't treat first-fruits and offerings the same as it does tithes. The three are not synonymous, i.e., first-fruits and offerings and tithes are not the same thing.
If you are tithing and and taking the full tithe to a church, why?
According to the O.T., only 1/10 of the tithes were brought to the storehouse(translated storeroom in some versions). Furthermore, it was done by the Levites & Priests...not by the Israelites.
"A priest descended from Aaron is to accompany the Levites when they receive the tithes, and the Levites are to bring a tenth of the tithes up to the house of our God, to the storerooms of the treasury. -Neh 10:37b-38
So, to properly tithe, 1/10 should go to a church(if one equates a church with the O.T. "storehouse") and it should be taken there by the Levites and Priests.
If you investigate this, note that the O.T. doesn't treat first-fruits and offerings the same as it does tithes. The three are not synonymous, i.e., first-fruits and offerings and tithes are not the same thing.
B
Moses Saith:
Deut. 22:11
Moses said
--- as of woollen and linen together.
and
a garment mingled of linen and woollen
any Ideas why he commanded such ?????
A Woolen Garment is made from Wool
Where does ---"Wool"--- come from ????
How do we get it ???
--"Shearing the Sheep"--
about certain men that use deceptive means to enrich themselves
Moses Saith
Thou shall not --"Shear the Sheep"-- to cloth yourself
Peter says of such men in the church
Beware of these
money hungry so-called "shepherds"
lest they
through covetousness shall they with feigned words
make merchandise of you:
Deut. 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts,
as of woollen and linen together.
Lev.19:2as of woollen and linen together.
"----------- Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy.
vs: 19
"--------------- neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee."
vs: 19
"--------------- neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee."
Moses said
--- as of woollen and linen together.
and
a garment mingled of linen and woollen
any Ideas why he commanded such ?????
A Woolen Garment is made from Wool
Where does ---"Wool"--- come from ????
How do we get it ???
From Shearing the Sheep
I am sure you have heard the expression --"Shearing the Sheep"--
about certain men that use deceptive means to enrich themselves
Moses Saith
Thou shall not --"Shear the Sheep"-- to cloth yourself
Peter says of such men in the church
2Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people,
even as there shall be false teachers among you,
who privily shall bring in damnable heresies,
even denying the Lord that bought them,
and bring upon themselves swift destruction.2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways;
by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words
make merchandise of you:
But there were false prophets also among the people,
even as there shall be false teachers among you,
who privily shall bring in damnable heresies,
even denying the Lord that bought them,
and bring upon themselves swift destruction.2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways;
by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words
make merchandise of you:
Beware of these
money hungry so-called "shepherds"
lest they
through covetousness shall they with feigned words
make merchandise of you:
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Jesus did not say "you ought to" (future tense). He said, "you ought to have"... past tense! He was speaking to (actually, berating) the Pharisees who sought to be justified by following the Law. He was also speaking before his own death, when the Law was still fully in effect. Context is so important!
Read Galatians, and you will see that you if you choose to follow the Law, you actually need to uphold the entire Law, not just tithing.
Dear Goodnewsman, what good news is it that we are still bound under the Law? Certainly we are not, neither blood sacrifices, nor temple service, nor circumcision, nor tithing. Jesus died to free you from the Law, not to confirm you under it! In Christ you have been set free; do not allow yourself to be bound again!
Read Galatians, and you will see that you if you choose to follow the Law, you actually need to uphold the entire Law, not just tithing.
Dear Goodnewsman, what good news is it that we are still bound under the Law? Certainly we are not, neither blood sacrifices, nor temple service, nor circumcision, nor tithing. Jesus died to free you from the Law, not to confirm you under it! In Christ you have been set free; do not allow yourself to be bound again!
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