“Confronting the Error of Hyper-Grace” – a response to Michael Brown

[sydlit]

Wow, that was awesome., Thanks for posting it Grace777 Very much blessed me.

(Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk)

.......That was a great vid, so eye and heart opening, I sincerely pray God applies it to my life, starting today. I know they say watch what you pray for, you just might get it, so this will be a challenge, but I believe Jesus has been giving me this challenge all along, but I've been too thick-headed/hard hearted to get it and grow. Gonna try by God's grace, to change and grow, this video has given me a new perspective, I thank you for posting it, and thank you Jesus for your long-suffering towards me, and your willingness to teach me still, in spite of my sinfulness and often rebellious heart/mind, help me to learn to love you and others more, Father, with All my heart and All my mind, in Jesus' name, amen.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Some people honestly have no idea what is being said ....the blood of our Lord Jesus has cleansed us when we believed in Him and continually cleanses as we walk in this earth....that can't be that hard to understand.

1 John 1:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth ( present continuous ) us from all sin.

And we know no matter what is being said ...people will say something different about what is actually being said..so this is the end of a useless discussion for me

ya'll play nice with each other..

Perhaps the HG crowd doesn't understand, or is not consistent with, what they're saying. They continually say that since past, present and future sins were forgiven there is no need to be forgiven or even think about sin. Yet then they turn around and say that the blood continually cleanses our sins. That's being double minded like the law keepers who say we are not under the law, but are required to follow and keep it.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Perhaps the HG crowd doesn't understand, or is not consistent with, what they're saying. They continually say that since past, present and future sins were forgiven there is no need to be forgiven or even think about sin. Yet then they turn around and say that the blood continually cleanses our sins. That's being double minded like the law keepers who say we are not under the law, but are required to follow and keep it.

Sounds like the whole space/time continuum thingy is throwing you off.

 

[Grace777x70]

See...I told ya!

"Exhibit A"

Perhaps the HG crowd doesn't understand, or is not consistent with, what they're saying. They continually say that since past, present and future sins were forgiven there is no need to be forgiven or even think about sin. Yet then they turn around and say that the blood continually cleanses our sins. That's being double minded like the law keepers who say we are not under the law, but are required to follow and keep it.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Sounds like the whole space/time continuum thingy is throwing you off.

Not me. You guys are the ones being logically inconsistent. All sins were forgiven, yet they still have to be forgiven? That's the sign of an unstable mind.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Not me. You guys are the ones being logically inconsistent. All sins were forgiven, yet they still have to be forgiven? That's the sign of an unstable mind.

I say my sins have been forgiven, thank you Jesus! Our sins HAVE been forgiven, "on account of His Name" 1 John 2:12. Which means that God’s name would come to dishonor if His forgiveness should fail.

 

[Grace777x70]

forgiveness and cleansing...are somewhat different but closely related.. ..all sins are forgiven ..but the sins themselves are being cleansed as we walk in Him..because we are in Him

 

[PeterJens]

I do not "confess" to be forgiven...

Grace7x77 I cannot believe your basic relationship ignorance. Jesus was very simple. Sin is about doing something that hurts or upsets someone else by an action, stealing, assaulting, abusing someone.

Now saying sorry, is showing to the other person you regret it ever happened. It is making sure they know you would not do that again and feel bad about the harm done. It is communicating that message. COMMUNICATING the message of regret.

You are communicating not to be forgiven but to show you are no longer that person who did that action and you wish to establish a better relationship. The person may forgive you, they may not, but it is your intent to show you feel bad about all of it.

Your whole intent ignores this aspect of repentance. If you sinned against me would I ever know you had repented.
You talk as if this is an equation of morality, guilt and punishment, and there is no need to repent when the whole of scripture shouts out this is the first step to renewal and re-establishing the relationship.

Listen to Jesus in regard to Peter and his denial of Jesus before the crucifixion.

Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.
Luke 22:31-32

The trust Peter had in Jesus that he would forgive him is based on the idea of him repenting or turned back from His denial would re-establish the relationship. This is about admiting hurt.

Jesus asked Peter 3 times did he love him? Peter is hurt. But Peter had denied Jesus 3 times at the cross, when he claimed so strongly he would die for Jesus, yet he fled like the wind. So easily we claim so much because it sounds good yet we have little back up.

The version of faith you are pushing Grace7x77 is a grace with no relationship or real edge. It is based on assumption and theory that you are accepted no matter the state of your heart which is hypocracy.

Your picture of a switch believe or not believe is meaningless. I can believe Jesus is the Son of God and still be a demon. Knowing who Jesus is does not mean you have a relationship with him. Assuming you are forgiven, but have no intention to change is empty, a contradiction, an affront to the gospel of righteousness and purity.

The truth is we can only open the door and ask for help and admit failure and debt, but that is everything compared to a closed door and a hard heart. I do not say this because of you, but for those who wonder at what you are saying without actually saying it and being honest.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I say my sins have been forgiven, thank you Jesus! Our sins HAVE been forgiven, "on account of His Name" 1 John 2:12. Which means that God’s name would come to dishonor if His forgiveness should fail.

Have been forgiven is past tense. Doesn't resolve the dichotomy.

 

[PeterJens]

How can future sins be forgiven? This language is wrong because it makes righteousness irrelevant. If you are forgiven whether you are good or bad, why change or why even believe it is needed. The reason for following Jesus is because the Kingdom of Heaven is a world of righteousness, love, joy, justice and truth.

We aspire to become members of this kingdom into which no sin can enter. In this world nothing matters except power and self interest. We know we have to go from one place to the other, through a walk of sanctification. Part of this walk is continual confirmation of the desire to walk in righteousness and repent of sin and mistakes as we walk.

If we give up along the way we give up on heaven. This hyper-grace is all about compromise and ignoring failure, so never arriving because the goal has been given up.

I am not into condemnation, but I am into finding what is Jesus's way. Most of life is about how we have relationships and growing in grace and love in our lives so we become mature people of heaven.

What is illuminating is how this heresy has got embedded in the church without us realising it.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

forgiveness and cleansing...are somewhat different but closely related.. ..all sins are forgiven ..but the sins themselves are being cleansed as we walk in Him..because we are in Him

Now you moved away from the past tense that your sins were forgiven to are forgiven. Sins are forgiven right here right now. It's an abiding state of forgiveness. See what I mean? You guys are not being consistent.

 

[Grace777x70]

Peter..my precious brother.

I repent constantly!!

I believe all sin is relational.

What I find funny about "confessing sins" is that we usually don't really confess the real sin.

Example:..I go to the store and steal food ( I supposedly confess that I stole food to God and He forgives me..)

The "sin" of stealing the food is just the "fruit" of my real sin....which is....I do not trust in my loving heavenly Father.

So, It is impossible to really confess our real sins....if we had to rely on that procedure.....we'd be goners and hell-bound for sure!!

One can be self-focused or Christ-focused. We choose to be Christ focused and to believe what He did for us on the cross and in our resurrection with Him with the creation of the new man.....the inner man of the heart created in Christ Jesus in righteousness and true holiness. We identify that our "old man" dies with Him and that we have been raised up in the new man in Christ now..seek Him now!



We all have told you at least 15 times ( maybe the others have told you this many other times in other threads before I came on here ) that we believe in repentance .

That we believe His life in us changes us. We believe grace teaches us how to live in this world.

Titus 2:11-12 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
[SUP]12 [/SUP] instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,

I realize that these beliefs in the grace of God....especially the acceptance grace and the total forgiveness that Jesus bought and paid for with His blood....that these can be offensive to our religious beliefs and what we have been taught in church.

This gospel of the wondrous grace of Christ has had a beautiful affect on me. I am more in love with Jesus and the Father more then ever....in love with studying His word....praying in the spirit constantly with a heart full of joy!

This gospel has given me a compassion for other people and to reach out in love to them. To give more than I ever have with a heart full of love.

To live a holier life in Him...to be a witness of the life and love of our Lord in me.

If these are the horrible fruit of the grace of Christ in me....I want more!.....hyper-grace me more please my Lord and God!

I'm really not interested in substitutes....I tried this self-effort / self-performance religion in the past and I have found it a very poor substitute for knowing Jesus.


Peter..my brother....you do not have to like it! If this grace that we believe Paul preached is offensive to you..well..just let it go...just carry on with your beliefs and walk with the Lord.

He loves you deeply and you are His favorite! You are deeply loved, highly favored and greatly blessed in Him. Jesus has provided a great salvation for us and it is all in Him!

Romans 14:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.

Be blessed!..

Grace7x77 I cannot believe your basic relationship ignorance. Jesus was very simple. Sin is about doing something that hurts or upsets someone else by an action, stealing, assaulting, abusing someone.

Now saying sorry, is showing to the other person you regret it ever happened. It is making sure they know you would not do that again and feel bad about the harm done. It is communicating that message. COMMUNICATING the message of regret.

You are communicating not to be forgiven but to show you are no longer that person who did that action and you wish to establish a better relationship. The person may forgive you, they may not, but it is your intent to show you feel bad about all of it.

Your whole intent ignores this aspect of repentance. If you sinned against me would I ever know you had repented.
You talk as if this is an equation of morality, guilt and punishment, and there is no need to repent when the whole of scripture shouts out this is the first step to renewal and re-establishing the relationship.

Listen to Jesus in regard to Peter and his denial of Jesus before the crucifixion.

Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.
Luke 22:31-32

The trust Peter had in Jesus that he would forgive him is based on the idea of him repenting or turned back from His denial would re-establish the relationship. This is about admiting hurt.

Jesus asked Peter 3 times did he love him? Peter is hurt. But Peter had denied Jesus 3 times at the cross, when he claimed so strongly he would die for Jesus, yet he fled like the wind. So easily we claim so much because it sounds good yet we have little back up.

The version of faith you are pushing Grace7x77 is a grace with no relationship or real edge. It is based on assumption and theory that you are accepted no matter the state of your heart which is hypocracy.

Your picture of a switch believe or not believe is meaningless. I can believe Jesus is the Son of God and still be a demon. Knowing who Jesus is does not mean you have a relationship with him. Assuming you are forgiven, but have no intention to change is empty, a contradiction, an affront to the gospel of righteousness and purity.

The truth is we can only open the door and ask for help and admit failure and debt, but that is everything compared to a closed door and a hard heart. I do not say this because of you, but for those who wonder at what you are saying without actually saying it and being honest.

 

[james57]

If Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness future sins MUST be forgiven, that is an undeniable fact. Otherwise you must be under a law of righteousness.

Why change if you are not under a law of righteousness/all your sins have been forgiven?
Two reasons come to mind.
Firstly:
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! [SUP]16 [/SUP]Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? Rom 6:15&16

The Christian has chosen their master. When they accept Christ as their Lord and Saviour they are making a commitment to follow after him. It is supposed to be because they love him. If you love someone you will not seek to offend them. You do not have to be threatened with punishment if you do not obey them because the driving force is love.

The second reason is-and I know I keep mentioning it. The new covenant simply does not depend on one core fact, but two.
You only get your sins and lawless deeds remembered no more for the3 law God desires you to keep is placed within you, it is on your heart
If you wilfully go against your hearts desire your conscience must be seered. You cannot sin in a carefree manner happily as much as you want. Your conscience must be seered if you do so. You will have no rest, no peace until you come before your father in Heaven and bow the knee.

Can a person go against their conscience/the law on their heart over such a long period of time they deaden it?
I leave that to others to discuss, I never discuss osas on the internet.

What I don't like about hyper grace, is two noticeable things

Firstly you are not supposed to have a conscience at sin, even if it is wilfull and deliberate sin as we use the term. This is totally wrong. If we look away from our saviour and commit wilfull sin our consciences must be seered if the law is on our hearts. We can do nothing else but be conscious of sin, and have a conscience by such sin

Secondly, it is made out to be a life of easy believism, Jesus does it all, there is no stressing what the believer must do/their responsibilirty.

Jesus will do it all, if you keep looking to him and trusting him to do it, through the spirit who sanctifies us. But that is not an easy path for we live in a body of weak flesh, and we have to keep looking to Christ, denying ourselves and not turning away to the flesh. Yes, we will be given strength to help us, but that responsibility we cannot abdicate. So if all people do is to stress it is an easy ride, Jesus will do it all, in my view they are either heading for a fall, or not mature in the faith
There was a man in a church I went to when young. He was about 50. He was really nice, great big smile, used to say hello and chat when he passed, he was on fire for Christ.
He used to put a bench up at the back of the church, jump up and down on it praising God in a hyper way during singing. I think he was the closest to hyper grace/easy believism I ever witnessed in a church I have been to
Then all of a sudden he stopped coming to the church. I found out later he had been having an affair with a girl of seventeen in the church.

Christianity is not one easy ride. I remember a minister in one church I went to didn't like people wearing badges that said
Smile, Jesus loves you. He thought it gave the impression Christianity was just an easy life, no hardships or difficulties.
So when people just preach of a Christianity that is just dandy for Jesus will do it all, it makes me uneasy. For it is not always dandy, tough, hard choices have to be made to grow, and you cannot abdicate all responsibility from yourself in that process. And if you make the wrong choices you will suffer greatly for it

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yet that's how the Hyper-Grace crowd looks at it.

That's how god looks at it.

What Hyper grace thinks does not change that. Most false truths are based on some facet of truth, if we reject the truth because some heretical group uses that truth as some part of their system, we would reject all truth,

Jesus died once, We do not crucify him over and over and over like the legalist looks at it.

 

[Grace777x70]

are forgiven....have been forgiven....same thing....they are forgiven in Him....the sins are gone in God's mind

Hebrews 8:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] "FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE."

Hebrews 10:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] "AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
. we are back in that loop with this again...oh brother

Now you moved away from the past tense that your sins were forgiven to are forgiven. Sins are forgiven right here right now. It's an abiding state of forgiveness. See what I mean? You guys are not being consistent.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

He plainly said JESUS' power keeps on cleansing us each time we sin.... NOT that we keep cleaning ourselves up by our repeated acts. Many people here tell it as though Jesus can't do a thing till He sees us doing our own "powerful", pitiful "wailing for more forgiveness" act.

As if our powerful pitiful wailing could cause an all powerful God to relent as say ok, I forgive you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Not me. You guys are the ones being logically inconsistent. All sins were forgiven, yet they still have to be forgiven? That's the sign of an unstable mind.

Scripture said I was chosen before time was even began.

God is outside of time, Even the death of his son was known before he even laid the foundation of the earth. And so was the foundation of all who would be saved.

We need to realise who God is and stop making God with human characteristics, as if we can fool him into saving and later we do something he totally missed, and change our minds, or continue in sin.

That's not very smart on mans part.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I say my sins have been forgiven, thank you Jesus! Our sins HAVE been forgiven, "on account of His Name" 1 John 2:12. Which means that God’s name would come to dishonor if His forgiveness should fail.

He would have to deny himself. As scripture plainly teaches.

 

[Grace777x70]

We are all in deep trouble if future sins are not forgiven.

I'm not going to bother to show all the scriptures that state all our sins are forgiven in Christ...because it will make no difference ...people will reject scriptures for their religious beliefs and tradition and quite frankly if they want to keep them..they should be allowed to.

it is not our job to reveal Christ to others..we can help in teaching but it is the Holy Spirit that gives us the revelation of Him!

How can future sins be forgiven? This language is wrong because it makes righteousness irrelevant. If you are forgiven whether you are good or bad, why change or why even believe it is needed. The reason for following Jesus is because the Kingdom of Heaven is a world of righteousness, love, joy, justice and truth.

We aspire to become members of this kingdom into which no sin can enter. In this world nothing matters except power and self interest. We know we have to go from one place to the other, through a walk of sanctification. Part of this walk is continual confirmation of the desire to walk in righteousness and repent of sin and mistakes as we walk.

If we give up along the way we give up on heaven. This hyper-grace is all about compromise and ignoring failure, so never arriving because the goal has been given up.

I am not into condemnation, but I am into finding what is Jesus's way. Most of life is about how we have relationships and growing in grace and love in our lives so we become mature people of heaven.

What is illuminating is how this heresy has got embedded in the church without us realising it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Have been forgiven is past tense. Doesn't resolve the dichotomy.

Actually, Have been is not a correct interpretation. Most versions say "are forgiven you"

The greek word is perfect passive.

It means a thing was was completed in the past. Continues through the present, and will continue for all time

The passive means it is an act which was done by someone else. acting on you.