The Sad Lives Of Legalists And Sinless Perfectionists

[JGIG]

Christ died for the sins of the entire world. That doesn't mean everyone is forgiven. A new person who comes to Christ has to admit they are a sinner and ask Jesus to forgive them. If they sin again, they have to confess and or forsake that sin. Otherwise they are not forgiven.

You still have not addressed the issue of what is required for forgiveness: Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness (Heb. 9:22).

You preach that confession/repentance = forgiveness.

It doesn't.

Christ's Blood/belief in Him/His Work = forgiveness.

To teach what you are teaching, you have to say that Christ will be crucified over and over and over, His Blood shed over and over and over repeatedly to continue to provide forgiveness for the ongoing sins of believers.

That is putting Christ to open shame:

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

​

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (from Heb. 6)​

That's why the writer of Hebrews says that it is IMPOSSIBLE for believers to be brought back to repentance for salvation - because the Work of Christ worked. The sin issue was completely dealt with (see also Heb. 7:25). Because we are SO SECURE in Christ, it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to restored to repentance unto salvation, because for believers to do so would be to crucify Christ all over again to apply His Blood afresh to themselves, putting Him to an open shame of being crucified over and over and over and over . . . . . .

That is the heresy of what you are teaching.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Not really. I do not want to seek after any attention by anyone. I do not want to boast or be famous or have a huge church. I prefer to do my works in secret before the Father where only He will see me. Yes, there are works we are to do before others... like preaching the Word, etc. But my primary mission is to please God and not any man. For what I believe is not the popular view. Also, I strive never to come off as hating anyone. I want to merely let folks know that God does not tolerate sin (Even amongst His people). Read Matthew 13:41. Does it sound like those in Christ's Kingdom will get away with doing iniquity or sin (According to that verse)?

This stream of conversation had to do with a man giving his boots to another man who needed them.

Someone observed this and testified to the sacrificial, loving act.

Jason asserted that the word should have been done in secret, according to Scripture. I will submit to you that that Scripture does not necessarily mean in isolation, away from all other people.

Do you think that a street ministry giving out coats and blankets to those in need during cold weather are sinning because they are doing so in public where anyone can see?

No, that passage has to do with boasting about one's OWN works. Now look back at your post, Jason. Who is boasting about himself?

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

You are also seeing evil where none was intended. I am merely pointing out that if it were possible it would be better to give in secret. Do you disagree with the Word of God? Also, do you think I am against His giving? No. Of course not. Nowhere did I ever say that.

But see, it really doesn't work like that because a person can easily get the wrong idea that they can sin and still be saved if you tell them that their future sin is forgiven them. It is essentially giving them a license to sin.

God does not allow His people to think that they can sin and still be saved. Grace doesn't work like that.

^^^^ THIS. ^^^^

This is why you need to be in real fellowship in a real local body of face-to-face believers.

Nearly everything you post is theoretical, not real. It influences your world view, your theology, your posts.

I have a feeling that your theology works for you because you isolate yourself from real people.

Real people, yea even believers, are MESSY.

They don't fit into theological formulas. They need Grace. LOTS of Grace. They sin. Believers in healthy fellowships confess one to another, pray for each other, encourage each other about who they are in Christ and the forgiveness they ALREADY HAVE in Him, pick themselves up (often with help from other real people), dust off, and move on, having gone to the Throne of Grace with freedom and confidence in their times of need (James 5:16, Heb. 4:14-16).

That WORKS. That allows for unity and freedom from sin/sinning in the Body.

Word of the day: REAL

-JGIG

 

[just-me]

You still have not addressed the issue of what is required for forgiveness: Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness (Heb. 9:22).

You preach that confession/repentance = forgiveness.

It doesn't.

Christ's Blood/belief in Him/His Work = forgiveness.

To teach what you are teaching, you have to say that Christ will be crucified over and over and over, His Blood shed over and over and over repeatedly to continue to provide forgiveness for the ongoing sins of believers.

That is putting Christ to open shame:

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

​

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (from Heb. 6)​

That's why the writer of Hebrews says that it is IMPOSSIBLE for believers to be brought back to repentance for salvation - because the Work of Christ worked. The sin issue was completely dealt with (see also Heb. 7:25). Because we are SO SECURE in Christ, it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to restored to repentance unto salvation, because for believers to do so would be to crucify Christ all over again to apply His Blood afresh to themselves, putting Him to an open shame of being crucified over and over and over and over . . . . . .

That is the heresy of what you are teaching.

-JGIG

Confession and repentance accompanies forgiveness. As we know, "blood" is the life of the flesh. (Leviticus 17:11) "For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul."

Now we also know that the flesh (carnality) is enmity against God. (Ephesians 2:15) "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; (Levitical ordinances that are legalistic by the flesh minus the Spirit) for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;"

Confession, is the first step toward forgiveness, and the sinners acknowledgement of their sinful flesh (revealed by the light of truth), the flesh being sustained by blood.

Then with a sincere heart, the sinner desires to kill those fleshly desires we are all born with. (Romans 12:1, Luke 9:23, and Matthew 10:38) "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me."

So Jesus took our sins, and shed His blood to kill our flesh instead of us having to offer our own blood so our flesh would die. Being cleansed by His blood demands a willingness on our part to follow Him, and to acknowledge our transgressions with a constant desire to separate ourselves from what God is already is separated from, and that is our sinful flesh.

"John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins." (Mark 1:4)

Sincere confession comes first, followed by the cleansing blood of Christ, leading to a new life with our Savior in a daily repentance. That's salvation.

Picking up our cross and following Christ Jesus, is daily confession, and repentance as His Word reveals our transgressions against Him. If we fail to reciprocate in His love for us, we really aren't saved at all.

 

[JGIG]

Think of the person you love the most in this world. Lets call them x. A government official comes to you and tells you if you harm(or kill) x you will not receive the punishment due under the law of your land. The penalty has been removed from you. Would that knowledge encourage you to harm the person you loved most in this world? Of course it wouldnt. What is the first and greatest commandment?

Right! And it's not even the commandment that you're thinking of or that's motivating you - it's love for that person!

Love is what God writes on our hearts when we believe and enter into Christ!

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Confession and repentance accompanies forgiveness. As we know, "blood" is the life of the flesh. (Leviticus 17:11) "For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul."

Now we also know that the flesh (carnality) is enmity against God. (Ephesians 2:15) "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; (Levitical ordinances that are legalistic by the flesh minus the Spirit) for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;"

Confession, is the first step toward forgiveness, and the sinners acknowledgement of their sinful flesh (revealed by the light of truth), the flesh being sustained by blood.

Then with a sincere heart, the sinner desires to kill those fleshly desires we are all born with. (Romans 12:1, Luke 9:23, and Matthew 10:38) "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me."

So Jesus took our sins, and shed His blood to kill our flesh instead of us having to offer our own blood so our flesh would die. Being cleansed by His blood demands a willingness on our part to follow Him, and to acknowledge our transgressions with a constant desire to separate ourselves from what God is already is separated from, and that is our sinful flesh.

"John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins." (Mark 1:4)

Sincere confession comes first, followed by the cleansing blood of Christ, leading to a new life with our Savior in a daily repentance. That's salvation.

Picking up our cross and following Christ Jesus, is daily confession, and repentance as His Word reveals our transgressions against Him.

I posed this challenge earlier:

Post for us all the passages from the Gospels where Christ required confession and repentance from those He forgave.

We'll wait.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

No. Jesus' disciples were believers. They were already spreading the gospel to Israel. Then Jesus said after his resurrection to preach the gospel to all nations. This was not a different gospel. Jesus did not say... I am going to give you something completely different to preach to the nations. You are doing theological evasion of what the text says. Jesus taught the same thing Paul taught. For Paul said if any man teaches contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, they are proud and they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). In other words, Paul is saying to me that if any one teaches contrary to the words of Jesus (Which sure sounds like what you are doing here), then Paul is saying they are proud and they know nothing. Is that what you are saying?

Nope. They weren't believers until after the Resurrection:

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed. (from 1 Cor. 15)​

The disciples were proclaiming the coming Kingdom of God. That's what Christ made possible by His Work of the Crucifixion, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and His Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood.

They were pointing to what was yet to happen. Christ became and is the Reality. They had to believe in Him and His Finished Work just as you and I had to to become believers.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

And in Christ believers are righteous (Rom. 5:19, 2 Cor. 5:21).

Your point?

-JGIG

This does not mean they can sin and still be saved or that they can abide in unrepentant sin and still be in Christ. Christ (God) is Holy and He will not tolerate a person living in rebellion against Him. The Scriptures make it absolutely clear that we USED to be sinners but now we live holy as believers doing righteous things. See Ephesians 4:17-27.

That Eph. 4 passage is comparing/contrasting pagans with believers, and exhorts believers, since they are in Christ an righteous, to live worthy of who they ALREADY ARE IN CHRIST.

To continue on to the end of that passage:

30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.​

Yep. Because of who you are in Christ, go therefore and . . .

It's not, not sin to stay saved and avoid God's wrath, but you are His, sealed for the day of redemption - live like it!

And once one gets hold of who they are in Christ and their security in Him . . . Fruit starts poppin' out all over the place, NOT SIN!

-JGIG

 

[Jason0047]

Even though we have not yet received the future redemption of our bodies, believers are still in a saved condition/possess eternal life as a present possession NOW (Ephesians 2:8; John 5:24). In regards to the word "hope," this is not a cross your fingers I hope so but can't be sure kind of hope. Unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - 1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. If we have saving faith in Christ then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things HOPED for.. (Hebrews 11:1). So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the HOPE of eternal life (Titus 3:7).

Yes, there are three tenses to salvation. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (Justification); 2. we are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing Sanctification); 3. we will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (Glorification). I'm not so sure that KennethC understands this after reading his statement below from post #426.

KennethC only seems to acknowledge that eternal life is a future possession, but not a past tense/present possession.
​

Amen! Yet Romans Catholics don't agree with 1 John 5:13. They believe we can't know for sure that we have eternal life and call having assurance of salvation "the sin of presumption." I once had a Roman Catholic priest tell me that the Greek word for "know" in 1 John 5:13 is "uncertain" and we "can't know for sure."

Yes, 1 John 2:3 - Now by this we know that we know Him, (demonstrative evidence) - if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. That reminds me of James 2:14 - says he has faith but he has no works - empty profession of faith/dead faith. By the way, the word "keep" in 1 John 2:3-4 comes from the Greek word "tereo" Strongs #5083 and means to keep, to guard, to watch over, preserve. It does not mean sinless perfect obedience to all the commandments of Christ 100% of the time.

Do you believe all born again believers are saved? If so... who was Jesus talking to in Matthew 6:15?

 

[phil112]

Perhaps you folks that always sin can explain this passage to me. Do you suppose that the spirit took a break from inspiring Paul and he used an unfortunate choice of words?

Colossians 1:21-23 "........now hath he reconciled.......In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

 

[Budman]

This stream of conversation had to do with a man giving his boots to another man who needed them.

Someone observed this and testified to the sacrificial, loving act.

Jason asserted that the word should have been done in secret, according to Scripture. I will submit to you that that Scripture does not necessarily mean in isolation, away from all other people.

Do you think that a street ministry giving out coats and blankets to those in need during cold weather are sinning because they are doing so in public where anyone can see?

No, that passage has to do with boasting about one's OWN works. Now look back at your post, Jason. Who is boasting about himself?

-JGIG

I don't think I've encountered a person so full of pride as Jason is.

 

[gb9]

Perhaps you folks that always sin can explain this passage to me. Do you suppose that the spirit took a break from inspiring Paul and he used an unfortunate choice of words?

perhaps you could explain how you think you never do anything wrong. ever. ever. by thought, deed, or non-deed. as you know, to him who knows to do good, but does not , to him it is sin. so therefore, when someone says ' I do not sin" this go much much deeper than not cussing, getting drunk, watching porn. much deeper. think about that.

 

[JGIG]

The sheep that Jesus was referring to are the one's that He is the Good Sheppard to. Jesus told a parable once about finding a lone sheep that had gone astray. Jesus also said once while talking to a group that there are others who are not of this fold and that He must gather them in.

Your explanation makes absolutely no sense. Don't worry, He will gather you in also.

You are speaking on here about the parable of the Lost Sheep in Luke 15, and in that parable it does show that the Shepard goes after them but it also says they have to repent of their way that caused them to go astray and return to Him !!!

3 So he told them this parable: 4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost.’ 7 Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance. (from Luke 15)​

Strong's G3340 - metanoeō

1. to change one's mind, i.e. to repent
2. to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins

Our whole Christian walk is a process of the renewing of our minds (Rom. 12) - continued repentance and understanding who we are in Christ. The more we truly understand that, the less we want to stray from Him.

Repentance leads to the turning away from sin, but it is not the turning away from sin itself.

And repentance is not required for Jesus to come after His lost sheep or to gently lay them on His shoulders. That parable is clear that repentance comes after rescue for that sheep, it was not a prerequisite.

Christ facilitates repentance and the renewing of our minds by His consistent love and care for us by never abandoning us, never rejecting us, even when we stray.

The Grace that Christ demonstrates toward us is so cool \o/.

-JGIG

 

[Budman]

The Scriptures make it absolutely clear that we USED to be sinners

And yet, you've admitted in many posts that you still sin. Thus, by you're own definition, you are in rebellion to Christ, and are not saved.

Now, here comes the part where you use the excuse about "unrepented of/continual sin" to justify your own behavior.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

No Apostle Paul does not speak as salvation as a past-tense receiving, and the confusion comes from placing saved and salvation as one and the same. Here is Apostle Paul and each time shows we hope to receive and seek for salvation/eternal life, and even your scripture above from Romans 8:23-25 shows that we wait patiently to receive it;

All of these from Paul show salvation/eternal life is a future possession:

1 Thessalonians 5:8
But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

1 Timothy 4:8
For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is (physical life), and of that which is to come.(eternal life)

1 Timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

1 Timothy 6:19
Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Titus 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Titus 3:7
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Colossians 1:22-23
In the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

To a certain degree you are correct. Some verses say we have salvation (Eph. 2:8, Romans 10:10 etc), and some that say it is future (as you listed above). But you can't use those verses to say that we can lose our salvation just because it's not totally realized yet.

Salvation is being rescued from death and the consequence of sin in this fallen world. Christians do still wrestle with sin and many die each year. We will not be totally rescued from sin and death until there is no more sin and death - when Christ returns and we are given new bodies.

There is an idiom in both Hebrew and Greek that is used when something will absolutely happen in the future, it can be spoken of in the past tense as if it has already happened. An example: Jude 14 says: . . .See the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy one. Other versions NASB (more literal) or ESV reads the Lord already "came" with his holy ones. The Greek text in fact reads "came". The future coming of the Lord will absolutely happen so via the biblical idiom it is spoken of in Jude as already happened - Just as our being seated in heaven with Christ is so certain that Ephesians 2:6 says we are already there with him.

Our future salvation is not in danger and God tells us that very clearly. One way is by telling us that it is guaranteed. The presence of God's gift of holy spirit born inside us is " . . a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession . ." (Eph. 1:14, 2 Cor. 1:22, 5:5) A guarantee is a guarantee. God also gives us the assurance of our salvation by words he chooses to use such as "birth" and "adoption".

Also hope is not just wishful thinking but a joyful expectation - Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; - we look with joyful expectation toward eternal life which God promised before the world began, and God cannot lie . . .Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. - We are justified by his grace and shall be made heirs according to the joyful expectation of eternal life. Because Christ was raised from the dead we have the assurance that we also, who believe, will be raised from the dead to eternal life with Christ. We have hope (joyful expectation) which brings assurance that what God says will happen will absolutely happen.

 

[mailmandan]

Do you believe all born again believers are saved? If so... who was Jesus talking to in Matthew 6:15?

Those who are born of God are saved and do not practice sin - 1 John 3:9. "Lost born again believer" is an OXYMORON. The "them" in Matthew 5:2 is perhaps ambiguous but is usually taken to mean the disciples, but by the end, it is 'the crowds' who Jesus 'was teaching'. Were the crowds just 'overhearing' teaching directed at the disciples? Were the disciples and the crowds both being addressed all along? Was there a gradual shift in audience from Matthew chapter 5-7, or a point in the teaching when Jesus starts addressing the wider audience? Continued unforgiveness is the mark of an unbeliever and forgiveness would be the mark of a true believer. We should forgive others because God, through Christ, has forgiven us (Ephesians 4:32). It is inconceivable that someone who has truly experienced God's forgiveness would continually refuse to grant forgiveness to others. Are you trying to turn Matthew 6:15 into a "lose your salvation" scenario for believers who refuse to forgive and a "maintain your salvation" scenario for believers who continue to forgive?

 

[JGIG]

Keep reading in Romans 8 for Apostle Paul shows no condemnation for those who walk by the Spirit and not by the flesh, not that there is no condemnation ever again. For those who know the truth in Jesus but continue to live by the flesh (sin) are still held under the law.

Check the Greek on vs. 1 in Rom. 8 - " . . . for those who walk after the spirit and not after the flesh" does not appear in the Greek in vs. 1:

A. THOSE WHO ARE IN CHRIST JESUS CAN BE ASSURED THAT THEY WILL NOT BE CONDEMNED AT THE JUDGMENT (8:1).

Romans 8:1: “Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.”

If you have not memorized that simple verse, do it! You will need it over and over again, every time you sin.

By the way, the King James Version wrongly includes the phrase from verse 4, “who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.” That rightly belongs at the end of verse 4, but it was probably inserted after verse 1 by a copyist who was worried that the bold statement of verse 1 as it stands would lead readers into licentiousness.

But it lacks sufficient manuscript support.

Verse 1 ends with the wonderful phrase that Paul uses so often, “in Christ Jesus.”
(from Bible.org, source)​

Then the passage you are using where it says that Jesus said He will not loose one was only in reference to the original 12 Apostles, as it says I will not loose one "except" for the son of perdition (Judas).

John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

That was prayed by Christ before the Cross; none of the disciples were yet believers/saved. Christ's Blood had not yet been spilled; the Resurrection not yet accomplished.

Then you mention Hebrews 10:14 and the actual context in the Greek for sanctification is a continuous process, not that it has already taken place. For Apostle Paul and the Apostle John both show that only by walking in the Spirit (Light) does one continue to be cleansed from all unrighteousness (sins). Romans 8 parallels 1 John 1:7-2:2

Context:

10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.​

11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool.

14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. (from Heb. 10)​

Jesus does not abandon us in our humanness and say, "Okay, I did the Cross thing, the rest is up to you or you're OUT!"

No, by His sacrifice (one time, for all sins, past, present, future), he has made (past tense, already accomplished) us perfect forever (not until the next time we sin, but forever safe in Him), even as He teaches us by His Grace to be holy (set apart). See also Titus 2:11-14.

-JGIG

 

[Jason0047]

You still have not addressed the issue of what is required for forgiveness: Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness (Heb. 9:22).

You preach that confession/repentance = forgiveness.

It doesn't.

Christ's Blood/belief in Him/His Work = forgiveness.

To teach what you are teaching, you have to say that Christ will be crucified over and over and over, His Blood shed over and over and over repeatedly to continue to provide forgiveness for the ongoing sins of believers.

That is putting Christ to open shame:

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

​

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (from Heb. 6)​

That's why the writer of Hebrews says that it is IMPOSSIBLE for believers to be brought back to repentance for salvation - because the Work of Christ worked. The sin issue was completely dealt with (see also Heb. 7:25). Because we are SO SECURE in Christ, it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to restored to repentance unto salvation, because for believers to do so would be to crucify Christ all over again to apply His Blood afresh to themselves, putting Him to an open shame of being crucified over and over and over and over . . . . . .

That is the heresy of what you are teaching.

-JGIG

What must one do to have the blood cleanse them according to 1 John 1:7?

What must one do to be forgiven of sin according to 1 John 1:9?

Doesn't that sound alot like Proverbs 28:13?

 

[mailmandan]

To a certain degree you are correct. Some verses say we have salvation (Eph. 2:8, Romans 10:10 etc), and some that say it is future (as you listed above). But you can't use those verses to say that we can lose our salvation just because it's not totally realized yet.

Amen! He also can't use those verses to negate verses which speak of having eternal life/salvation in past/present tense (John 5:24; Ephesians 2:8).

Salvation is being rescued from death and the consequence of sin in this fallen world. Christians do still wrestle with sin and many die each year. We will not be totally rescued from sin and death until there is no more sin and death - when Christ returns and we are given new bodies.

Amen! We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (Justification); we are being saved from the power of sin (ongoing Sanctification); we will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (Glorification). Those who teach salvation by works and/or eternal IN-security can easily mix this up.

There is an idiom in both Hebrew and Greek that is used when something will absolutely happen in the future, it can be spoken of in the past tense as if it has already happened. An example: Jude 14 says: . . .See the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy one. Other versions NASB (more literal) or ESV reads the Lord already "came" with his holy ones. The Greek text in fact reads "came". The future coming of the Lord will absolutely happen so via the biblical idiom it is spoken of in Jude as already happened - Just as our being seated in heaven with Christ is so certain that Ephesians 2:6 says we are already there with him.

Amen! In Romans 8:30, we read - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. "ALL" of them.Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty. As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out - Called (ekalesen) --Justified (edikaiwsen) --Glorified (edoxasen). All first aorist active indicatives of common verbs (kalew, dikaiow, doxazw). But the glorification is stated as already consummated (constative aorists, all of them), though still in the future in the fullest sense. "The step implied in edoxasen is both complete and certain in the Divine counsels."

Our future salvation is not in danger and God tells us that very clearly. One way is by telling us that it is guaranteed. The presence of God's gift of holy spirit born inside us is " . . a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession . ." (Eph. 1:14, 2 Cor. 1:22, 5:5) A guarantee is a guarantee. God also gives us the assurance of our salvation by words he chooses to use such as "birth" and "adoption".

Amen! - guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee/who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee is crystal clear to me. Also, Ephesians 4:30 says that we are sealed for/unto the day of redemption. Praise God! Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

Also hope is not just wishful thinking but a joyful expectation - Ti

tus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; - we look with joyful expectation toward eternal life which God promised before the world began, and God cannot lie . . .Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. - We are justified by his grace and shall be made heirs according to the joyful expectation of eternal life. Because Christ was raised from the dead we have the assurance that we also, who believe, will be raised from the dead to eternal life with Christ. We have hope (joyful expectation) which brings assurance that what God says will happen will absolutely happen.

Amen! In regards to the word "hope," this is not a cross your fingers I hope so but can't be sure kind of hope. Unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - 1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. If we have saving faith in Christ then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things HOPED for.. (Hebrews 11:1).

 

[Gr8grace]

Perhaps you folks that always sin can explain this passage to me. Do you suppose that the spirit took a break from inspiring Paul and he used an unfortunate choice of words?

This verse is not about sin. It is about continuing in the faith and not moving away from the HOPE(Assurance/certainty of our faith)

A few verses deal with the idea of continuing in sin, the majority of verses deal with reverting back to religion and false faith(Human good/evil)

An example of a believer who has lost true faith is one who thinks salvation can be lost. They are reconciled(Position in Christ) but they are not grounded and settled in the faith. They revert to their own righteousness(Filthy rags) and will not be presented holy,blameless and unreproveable.......they relied on their own righteousness and walked away from the true faith(Faith alone in Christ alone.)

They will have SHAME at the judgement seat of Christ. Saved, but as if through fire......by the skin of their teeth.

Colossians 1:21-23 "........now hath he reconciled.......In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;