The Sad Lives Of Legalists And Sinless Perfectionists
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Peter asked Christ about forgiveness of sin.
He asked how many times should one forgive another of a sin against him, wondering was that number "7 times". But Christ corrected him saying one is to forgive someone's sin against them 70 x 7 (490 times). From the context of Peter's question we probably should assume that it was concerning the *same* sin. So Christ said one is to forgive (for the same sin) 490 times before condemning a person.
Now while it will appear Christ was being poetic regarding having great mercy through forgiveness (leading the casual reader of this account to believe God/Christ will *continuously* forgive one of their sin so long as it’s confessed...or that even future sins have already been forgiven), I’d like to draw everyone’s attention to the prophetic time God gave Israel in Daniel 9:24.
---
"Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place."
As the prophecy goes, God gave a countdown of 70 x 7 (490 times) to the children of Israel to:
- Finish transgressing
- Stop sinning
- Atone for wickedness (cover)
- Establish everlasting righteousness (goodness)
- Confirm the vision & prophecy
- Anoint the Most Holy
---
...In other words, God gave his chosen people the same time limit that Christ taught Peter to give one who sins against him. This provides us with a testimony of 2 witnesses (one from the OT and one from the NT) proving a few truths:
1. God is long suffering of our sins against him, having great mercy and willing to forgive a great deal...but
2. There is a *limit* to God’s great mercy, when his forgiveness *ends* and his judgment begins for the transgression
3. There is an implied expectation - by God - that the offender can and must *stop* committing the sin within the timeframe of His mercy...else why give a time limit at all?
As God prophesied for Israel, so did Christ instruct Peter.
One can’t continue to sin the same transgressions indefinitely and expect to continue to be forgiven for it, as such is treating God’s grace and mercy as license to continue in that sin. Sin is expected to stop. Future sin that we commit after God’s mercy has ended is not forgiven...it is judged.
Our God is one of great mercy...but he is also a holy God of just judgment.
We all are aware of the book of revelation and its prophecies concerning God’s judgment. But I think many of us are overlooking the stark warning Christ gives *his churches* prior to the drama of judgment unfolding. Peter says judgment *begins* at God’s house with us (1 Peter 4:17).
If we were forgiven for our *future* sins, why would he give a warning to *his churches* to repent and avoid future sins against him or else face his judgment? Again, if future sins are already forgiven then it logically follows there’s no *future* sin these churches can *ever* be judged for by God right, and Christ’s was wasting his breath through chapters 2 + 3?
Yet we can't take away from what has been written here in this prophetic book per Revelation 22:19.
---
Rev 2:1-5
Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write... I know thy works... Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee...Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Rev 2:8-10
And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write... I know thy works... be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Rev 2:12-16
And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write... I know thy works... But I have a few things against thee... Repent; or elseI will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
Rev 2:18-23
And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write... I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee... And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Rev 3:1-4
And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write... I know thy works... I have not found thy works perfect before God. Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent... Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
Rev 3:7-10
And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write... I know thy works... thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word... Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation...
Rev 3:7-10
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write... I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot... I will spue thee out of my mouth... As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
---
As Christ's future churches, the current time we're living through right now before judgment is "the space to repent".
Seven times Christ says to *his* seven (prophetic) churches of the end times that he sees their “works”. And to many of them he tells them to "repent". Many of his churches are sinning but are expected not to be; expected to be "perfect" as he says. Note the key words & phrases: "fornication", "defiled garments", "repent of deeds"...these are clues Christ is referring to sin. If sin wasn't expected to end; if we aren't able to stop, why would Christ unfairly set us up by giving these warnings? More to the point, two of his churches *are* successful (Smyrna & Philadelphia). Again a testimony of two or more establishes a truth.
For a few of his churches he says he will strip away their light or fight them or kill them. To others he says he will give them a crown of life or a seat at his throne if they continue in their faithfulness to what he said to do.
Again these are his believers he’s talking to. And it can’t be said that this message is *before* he died on the cross and prior to the dispensation of grace...clearly. This is obviously after the cross, resurrection, and distribution of his Holy Spirit to the believer. This is a New Testament warning. The last warning.
So a belief that future sins are already forgiven contradicts Christ telling his churches that he'll judge them for those sins if they don't repent from them. The difference is we now have the power to stop through grace and his most Holy Spirit.
He asked how many times should one forgive another of a sin against him, wondering was that number "7 times". But Christ corrected him saying one is to forgive someone's sin against them 70 x 7 (490 times). From the context of Peter's question we probably should assume that it was concerning the *same* sin. So Christ said one is to forgive (for the same sin) 490 times before condemning a person.
Now while it will appear Christ was being poetic regarding having great mercy through forgiveness (leading the casual reader of this account to believe God/Christ will *continuously* forgive one of their sin so long as it’s confessed...or that even future sins have already been forgiven), I’d like to draw everyone’s attention to the prophetic time God gave Israel in Daniel 9:24.
---
"Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place."
As the prophecy goes, God gave a countdown of 70 x 7 (490 times) to the children of Israel to:
- Finish transgressing
- Stop sinning
- Atone for wickedness (cover)
- Establish everlasting righteousness (goodness)
- Confirm the vision & prophecy
- Anoint the Most Holy
---
...In other words, God gave his chosen people the same time limit that Christ taught Peter to give one who sins against him. This provides us with a testimony of 2 witnesses (one from the OT and one from the NT) proving a few truths:
1. God is long suffering of our sins against him, having great mercy and willing to forgive a great deal...but
2. There is a *limit* to God’s great mercy, when his forgiveness *ends* and his judgment begins for the transgression
3. There is an implied expectation - by God - that the offender can and must *stop* committing the sin within the timeframe of His mercy...else why give a time limit at all?
As God prophesied for Israel, so did Christ instruct Peter.
One can’t continue to sin the same transgressions indefinitely and expect to continue to be forgiven for it, as such is treating God’s grace and mercy as license to continue in that sin. Sin is expected to stop. Future sin that we commit after God’s mercy has ended is not forgiven...it is judged.
Our God is one of great mercy...but he is also a holy God of just judgment.
We all are aware of the book of revelation and its prophecies concerning God’s judgment. But I think many of us are overlooking the stark warning Christ gives *his churches* prior to the drama of judgment unfolding. Peter says judgment *begins* at God’s house with us (1 Peter 4:17).
If we were forgiven for our *future* sins, why would he give a warning to *his churches* to repent and avoid future sins against him or else face his judgment? Again, if future sins are already forgiven then it logically follows there’s no *future* sin these churches can *ever* be judged for by God right, and Christ’s was wasting his breath through chapters 2 + 3?
Yet we can't take away from what has been written here in this prophetic book per Revelation 22:19.
---
Rev 2:1-5
Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write... I know thy works... Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee...Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Rev 2:8-10
And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write... I know thy works... be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Rev 2:12-16
And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write... I know thy works... But I have a few things against thee... Repent; or elseI will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
Rev 2:18-23
And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write... I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee... And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Rev 3:1-4
And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write... I know thy works... I have not found thy works perfect before God. Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent... Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
Rev 3:7-10
And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write... I know thy works... thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word... Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation...
Rev 3:7-10
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write... I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot... I will spue thee out of my mouth... As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
---
As Christ's future churches, the current time we're living through right now before judgment is "the space to repent".
Seven times Christ says to *his* seven (prophetic) churches of the end times that he sees their “works”. And to many of them he tells them to "repent". Many of his churches are sinning but are expected not to be; expected to be "perfect" as he says. Note the key words & phrases: "fornication", "defiled garments", "repent of deeds"...these are clues Christ is referring to sin. If sin wasn't expected to end; if we aren't able to stop, why would Christ unfairly set us up by giving these warnings? More to the point, two of his churches *are* successful (Smyrna & Philadelphia). Again a testimony of two or more establishes a truth.
For a few of his churches he says he will strip away their light or fight them or kill them. To others he says he will give them a crown of life or a seat at his throne if they continue in their faithfulness to what he said to do.
Again these are his believers he’s talking to. And it can’t be said that this message is *before* he died on the cross and prior to the dispensation of grace...clearly. This is obviously after the cross, resurrection, and distribution of his Holy Spirit to the believer. This is a New Testament warning. The last warning.
So a belief that future sins are already forgiven contradicts Christ telling his churches that he'll judge them for those sins if they don't repent from them. The difference is we now have the power to stop through grace and his most Holy Spirit.
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I think they genuinely want to 'get it right', and really do want to honor and obey God.
They're just putting their focus on themselves and what they think they must do instead of on Christ and what He already did.
The difference is dead works (fruit) of the flesh vs. live works (Fruit) from the Spirit.
And anytime we put our focus on ourselves to produce fruit we're going to spiral into self-righteous navel-gazing, or in the absence of self-examination, we'll turn to examining those around us, which we see a lot of. And that's a very busy life.
Christ tells us to rest in Him; His burden is easy and His yoke is light. He has works (Fruit) prepared for us already; we just need to walk/abide with/in Him and we'll walk right into them!
-JGIG
They're just putting their focus on themselves and what they think they must do instead of on Christ and what He already did.
The difference is dead works (fruit) of the flesh vs. live works (Fruit) from the Spirit.
And anytime we put our focus on ourselves to produce fruit we're going to spiral into self-righteous navel-gazing, or in the absence of self-examination, we'll turn to examining those around us, which we see a lot of. And that's a very busy life.
Christ tells us to rest in Him; His burden is easy and His yoke is light. He has works (Fruit) prepared for us already; we just need to walk/abide with/in Him and we'll walk right into them!
-JGIG
Did not Paul say examine yourselves on whether or not ye be in Christ unless ye be reprobates? (2 Corinthians 13:5). Paul also said if any man teaches contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, they are proud and they know nothing.
Many times I have said that it is Christ that does the good work within me, yet this goes ignored and I am labeled as a Works Salvationist whereby I earn my salvation like I am climbing some sort of ladder. Nothing could be further from the truth. Folks here do not want to admit that fruit from the Spirit MUST be evident in their life or they do not have the LORD living within them and therefore, they are not saved. For GOD is their salvation. He is the source of their redemption. It is the LORD who works in us His good work (Which is a part of a believer's Sanctification). One cannot abide in unrepentant sin because it is showing they have turned away from God or they never really repented of their sins in the first place.
Many times I have said that it is Christ that does the good work within me, yet this goes ignored and I am labeled as a Works Salvationist whereby I earn my salvation like I am climbing some sort of ladder. Nothing could be further from the truth. Folks here do not want to admit that fruit from the Spirit MUST be evident in their life or they do not have the LORD living within them and therefore, they are not saved. For GOD is their salvation. He is the source of their redemption. It is the LORD who works in us His good work (Which is a part of a believer's Sanctification). One cannot abide in unrepentant sin because it is showing they have turned away from God or they never really repented of their sins in the first place.
Who are you talking about, Jason?
These are theories your espousing.
You are denying the transforming power of God to change those who put their faith in Christ and receive new hearts and become new creations.
It may take a lifetime in this world full of cares, or even wait until the new Heaven and Earth, but God WILL manifest His glory in those who trust in Him!
Yet you deny this truth with nearly every post, saying how wicked and evil Christians are.
Sigh.
How is it that you only see self-purification in those passages when those passages keep trying to tell you it's all about Christ and His Fruit . . .
-JGIG
These are theories your espousing.
You are denying the transforming power of God to change those who put their faith in Christ and receive new hearts and become new creations.
It may take a lifetime in this world full of cares, or even wait until the new Heaven and Earth, but God WILL manifest His glory in those who trust in Him!
Yet you deny this truth with nearly every post, saying how wicked and evil Christians are.
Sigh.
How is it that you only see self-purification in those passages when those passages keep trying to tell you it's all about Christ and His Fruit . . .
-JGIG
No, Jason, not a type of sin that is forgiven and one type of sin that is not forgiven. No place in that passage can one reach that conclusion, and that interpretation completely contradicts Romans 6:23 -
This passage has nothing to do with forgiveness, but about EARTHLY CONSEQUENCES. Some sins lead to death - physical death on this Earth, like driving drunk, some sins don't, like cheating on your taxes.
The wages of all sin is death for the UNBELIEVER, but for the BELIEVER (to whom this passage is written), there are sins which lead to physical death on this Earth and some that don't.
No it's not. There is not ONE WORD about this passage being about folks who are struggling with a particular sin they are confessing:
You are COMPLETELY misreading this passage, Jason.
You simply made all of that up.
That passage indicates NONE of that.
And refusing to confess and forsake sin is not what leads to spiritual death; UNBELIEF in Christ is what leads to spiritual death.
Believe in Christ and receive the FREE gifts of forgiveness, righteousness, and New Life in Him. Become a New Creation and experience the new desires that God works into the believer.
Jason - challenge for you: Go through the NT and see how many of the people that Jesus forgave in His ministry confessed and repented beforehand.
Let us know what you find
.
Those versions do not remotely support your interpretation, either.
-JGIG
The wages of sin is death.
This passage has nothing to do with forgiveness, but about EARTHLY CONSEQUENCES. Some sins lead to death - physical death on this Earth, like driving drunk, some sins don't, like cheating on your taxes.
The wages of all sin is death for the UNBELIEVER, but for the BELIEVER (to whom this passage is written), there are sins which lead to physical death on this Earth and some that don't.
No it's not. There is not ONE WORD about this passage being about folks who are struggling with a particular sin they are confessing:
16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death. (from 1 Jn. 5)
You are COMPLETELY misreading this passage, Jason.
You simply made all of that up.
That passage indicates NONE of that.
And refusing to confess and forsake sin is not what leads to spiritual death; UNBELIEF in Christ is what leads to spiritual death.
Believe in Christ and receive the FREE gifts of forgiveness, righteousness, and New Life in Him. Become a New Creation and experience the new desires that God works into the believer.
Jason - challenge for you: Go through the NT and see how many of the people that Jesus forgave in His ministry confessed and repented beforehand.
Let us know what you find
.Those versions do not remotely support your interpretation, either.
-JGIG
"Integrated message system?" Where are you getting this stuff?
Integrate Christ and His Work into your interpretive lens and experience freedom FROM sin/sinning/focusing on sin.
Christ is what must be in view, not 'not sinning'.
-JGIG
No, not at all. I believe Ezekiel 36:26-27. For I believe God transforms a person's heart and spirit, and then He places His Spirit within them so as to keep His laws and statutes. However, that said, God does not take away our "free will." God is not a respecter of persons.
Again, understanding that the born again believer has the ability to still accept or reject God is understood when one understands who Jesus was speaking to in Matthew 6:15. Jesus said if you do not forgive, then the Father will not forgive you. If Jesus was speaking to unbelievers, this would in no way help them because they would first need to repent of their sins and accept Christ as their Savior. For if an unbeliever were to forgive everyone in their life, they would still die in their sins if they have not accepted the gospel and Christ. So we realize that Jesus is talking to the believer in Matthew 6:15. Which means... that Jesus is saying that the saint can not be forgiven if they do not forgive. For if all saints just automatically forgive, then Christ's warning would be powerless and have no real meaning. It would just be a false threat. But we know that is not the case, Jesus meant what he said and he was only talking to the believer (and not the unbeliever). For the mysteries of the Kingdom (or spiritual teachings) are not given to unbelievers (Who will just reject His Word).
Again, understanding that the born again believer has the ability to still accept or reject God is understood when one understands who Jesus was speaking to in Matthew 6:15. Jesus said if you do not forgive, then the Father will not forgive you. If Jesus was speaking to unbelievers, this would in no way help them because they would first need to repent of their sins and accept Christ as their Savior. For if an unbeliever were to forgive everyone in their life, they would still die in their sins if they have not accepted the gospel and Christ. So we realize that Jesus is talking to the believer in Matthew 6:15. Which means... that Jesus is saying that the saint can not be forgiven if they do not forgive. For if all saints just automatically forgive, then Christ's warning would be powerless and have no real meaning. It would just be a false threat. But we know that is not the case, Jesus meant what he said and he was only talking to the believer (and not the unbeliever). For the mysteries of the Kingdom (or spiritual teachings) are not given to unbelievers (Who will just reject His Word).
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The Scriptures say that the Law is a schoolmaster that brings us unto Christ. The Scriptures also say that sin is transgression of the Law. However, if we did not know we are a sinner, then there would be no need to repent and there would be no need for a Savior. For Jesus Christ was manifested to destroy the works of the devil. Jesus Christ came to save mankind from their sins. However, that just doesn't happen for man if he chooses to just go His own way instead of God's way. A person has to surrender their life to Jesus Christ. Not just one time in their life, but every day.
In other words, there is no point in accepting Jesus or looking to Jesus if one did not sin. For the Law was not made for a righteous man but for sinners and the ungodly. The Law convicts a person to throw themselves down before God and to say that they are sorry to the LORD and that they want to surrender their life to Him (So that He can do the good work in their lives). For pointing to "sin" is merely showing that one has broken God's law and that they need to get their heart right with Him so that the fruits of the Spirit can then work in their life. But one cannot serve two masters (Both God and sin). It doesn't work like that. A person must choose this day in whom they will serve. Will they serve sin or will they serve the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY. Choose this day whom ye will serve. Make your paths straight and bring forth fruits worthy of repentance.
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There were no 'believers' in Matthew 6:15.
Not in the New Covenant.
Christ's Blood had not yet been spilled.
Christ was setting the bar of perfection higher and higher in His ministry before the Cross to show people that they were as good as dead - not able to measure up in any way - and to point them to Him and His Work.
Unbelievers are not those who reject the Scriptures (His written Word - there are LOTS of unsaved folks out there who look to the Scriptures for guidance - Israel, for instance), but those who reject the Work of Christ.
-JGIG
Not in the New Covenant.
Christ's Blood had not yet been spilled.
Christ was setting the bar of perfection higher and higher in His ministry before the Cross to show people that they were as good as dead - not able to measure up in any way - and to point them to Him and His Work.
Unbelievers are not those who reject the Scriptures (His written Word - there are LOTS of unsaved folks out there who look to the Scriptures for guidance - Israel, for instance), but those who reject the Work of Christ.
-JGIG
No. Jesus' disciples were believers. They were already spreading the gospel to Israel. Then Jesus said after his resurrection to preach the gospel to all nations. This was not a different gospel. Jesus did not say... I am going to give you something completely different to preach to the nations. You are doing theological evasion of what the text says. Jesus taught the same thing Paul taught. For Paul said if any man teaches contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, they are proud and they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). In other words, Paul is saying to me that if any one teaches contrary to the words of Jesus (Which sure sounds like what you are doing here), then Paul is saying they are proud and they know nothing. Is that what you are saying?
This does not mean they can sin and still be saved or that they can abide in unrepentant sin and still be in Christ. Christ (God) is Holy and He will not tolerate a person living in rebellion against Him. The Scriptures make it absolutely clear that we USED to be sinners but now we live holy as believers doing righteous things. See Ephesians 4:17-27.
Even though we have not yet received the future redemption of our bodies, believers are still in a saved condition/possess eternal life as a present possession NOW (Ephesians 2:8; John 5:24). In regards to the word "hope," this is not a cross your fingers I hope so but can't be sure kind of hope. Unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - 1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. If we have saving faith in Christ then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things HOPED for.. (Hebrews 11:1). So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the HOPE of eternal life (Titus 3:7).
Amen! Yet Romans Catholics don't agree with 1 John 5:13. They believe we can't know for sure that we have eternal life and call having assurance of salvation "the sin of presumption." I once had a Roman Catholic priest tell me that the Greek word for "know" in 1 John 5:13 is "uncertain" and we "can't know for sure."
Yes, 1 John 2:3 - Now by this we know that we know Him, (demonstrative evidence) - if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. That reminds me of James 2:14 - says he has faith but he has no works - empty profession of faith/dead faith. By the way, the word "keep" in 1 John 2:3-4 comes from the Greek word "tereo" Strongs #5083 and means to keep, to guard, to watch over, preserve. It does not mean sinless perfect obedience to all the commandments of Christ 100% of the time.
Yes, there are three tenses to salvation. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (Justification); 2. we are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing Sanctification); 3. we will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (Glorification). I'm not so sure that KennethC understands this after reading his statement below from post #426.
KennethC only seems to acknowledge that eternal life is a future possession, but not a past tense/present possession.
KennethC only seems to acknowledge that eternal life is a future possession, but not a past tense/present possession.
Amen! Yet Romans Catholics don't agree with 1 John 5:13. They believe we can't know for sure that we have eternal life and call having assurance of salvation "the sin of presumption." I once had a Roman Catholic priest tell me that the Greek word for "know" in 1 John 5:13 is "uncertain" and we "can't know for sure."
Yes, 1 John 2:3 - Now by this we know that we know Him, (demonstrative evidence) - if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. That reminds me of James 2:14 - says he has faith but he has no works - empty profession of faith/dead faith. By the way, the word "keep" in 1 John 2:3-4 comes from the Greek word "tereo" Strongs #5083 and means to keep, to guard, to watch over, preserve. It does not mean sinless perfect obedience to all the commandments of Christ 100% of the time.
It's been my experience over time that when one has been to a 'lot of churches' and cannot find even one where they can worship, build lasting relationships, and serve with their brothers and sisters in Christ it is not the churches that are 'off'.
There are lots of fundamentalist churches out there that do just that.
Their focus is on dead works of the flesh and not Spirit-led Fruit.
Been there, seen that, moved on.
Simply loving well those around us, believers and unbelievers alike, is FAR MORE effective in maturing the Body and spreading the Gospel.
Discipling is best done by other mature believers, not by 'programs'. Structured study can be useful and is a valuable tool, but it is no substitute for coming along someone, teaching them about who they are in Christ, building relationship, teaching them about who they are in Christ, loving them well through life's circumstances, and teaching them about who they are in Christ.
You need to get out more.
Seriously.
There are vibrant, Fruitful, loving, serving, communities of believers out there.
Keep looking.
Plug in somewhere.
I have a feeling that if you do, and try to walk out your current theology, it won't work on a practical level. I have a feeling you'll find yourself very unpeaceful when around other believers. I have a feeling you will find yourself not really knowing how to love others well in intrapersonal relationships that are ongoing.
Perhaps that has been your experience already and why everywhere you go YOU feel something is 'off'.
I don't write any of this to condemn, but to encourage you to get out there and find a local body of believers in which you can worship, be willing to build relationships, and serve. There is great value in relating to/with other believers in real proximity, where you can have real interaction.
My prayer is that you will find a place where the Fruit of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control) is clearly demonstrated by flawed people who are in Christ. That will mess with your reality, but will testify to how Christ's strength is made perfect in our weakness.
Grace and peace to you,
-JGIG
There are lots of fundamentalist churches out there that do just that.
Their focus is on dead works of the flesh and not Spirit-led Fruit.
Been there, seen that, moved on.
Simply loving well those around us, believers and unbelievers alike, is FAR MORE effective in maturing the Body and spreading the Gospel.
Discipling is best done by other mature believers, not by 'programs'. Structured study can be useful and is a valuable tool, but it is no substitute for coming along someone, teaching them about who they are in Christ, building relationship, teaching them about who they are in Christ, loving them well through life's circumstances, and teaching them about who they are in Christ.
You need to get out more.
Seriously.
There are vibrant, Fruitful, loving, serving, communities of believers out there.
Keep looking.
Plug in somewhere.
I have a feeling that if you do, and try to walk out your current theology, it won't work on a practical level. I have a feeling you'll find yourself very unpeaceful when around other believers. I have a feeling you will find yourself not really knowing how to love others well in intrapersonal relationships that are ongoing.
Perhaps that has been your experience already and why everywhere you go YOU feel something is 'off'.
I don't write any of this to condemn, but to encourage you to get out there and find a local body of believers in which you can worship, be willing to build relationships, and serve. There is great value in relating to/with other believers in real proximity, where you can have real interaction.
My prayer is that you will find a place where the Fruit of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control) is clearly demonstrated by flawed people who are in Christ. That will mess with your reality, but will testify to how Christ's strength is made perfect in our weakness.
Grace and peace to you,
-JGIG
Also, salvation is in three stages.
1. Justification
(Initial Salvation - Admitting your a sinner and accepting Christ as your Savior).
2. Sanctification
(Continued Salvation - Allowing Christ's righteousness to flow thru your life; If you sin, you must confess and forsake it).
3. Glorification
(Final Salvation - This is when the Lord takes you home; This would also include the bodily resurrection, too).
Well, no........you kinda got this messed up.
Let us try this:
Salvation
Justification
Sanctification
1) Salvation: That "come to Jesus" moment when one repents, confesses and accepts Jesus as Lord and Savior, and by the Grace of God through the power of the blood of Christ is cleansed of their sins and made worthy to become heirs to the Promise.
2) Justification: God justifies us! We can not justify ourselves.
3) Sanctification: The receiving of the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit who enables us with the power/gift(s) to accomplish what God has purposed us to do for His Kingdom.
1. Justification
(Initial Salvation - Admitting your a sinner and accepting Christ as your Savior).
2. Sanctification
(Continued Salvation - Allowing Christ's righteousness to flow thru your life; If you sin, you must confess and forsake it).
3. Glorification
(Final Salvation - This is when the Lord takes you home; This would also include the bodily resurrection, too).
Well, no........you kinda got this messed up.
Let us try this:
Salvation
Justification
Sanctification
1) Salvation: That "come to Jesus" moment when one repents, confesses and accepts Jesus as Lord and Savior, and by the Grace of God through the power of the blood of Christ is cleansed of their sins and made worthy to become heirs to the Promise.
2) Justification: God justifies us! We can not justify ourselves.
3) Sanctification: The receiving of the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit who enables us with the power/gift(s) to accomplish what God has purposed us to do for His Kingdom.
Thanks, and it was a beautiful time, with the Grace and love and restorative power of Christ palpable for like 3 days!
Ugh - I'm so sorry you had that experience. Yes, there are unsafe places like that, unfortunately. There are books published out there that espouse the 'no matter what, YOU have to be a better wife' bit, even in the face of abuse, and that's complete rubbish. Not that we are not to work at being good partners for our husbands and good moms to our children, but unhealthy belief systems always put the focus on self and have some sort of formula when the focus should be on Christ, Who is the source for the Fruit in our lives.
You may already familiar with the above embedded links, but if not, they're good reads where you may find encouragement and further healing.
I'm glad it blessed you, you're welcome!
-JGIG
Ugh - I'm so sorry you had that experience. Yes, there are unsafe places like that, unfortunately. There are books published out there that espouse the 'no matter what, YOU have to be a better wife' bit, even in the face of abuse, and that's complete rubbish. Not that we are not to work at being good partners for our husbands and good moms to our children, but unhealthy belief systems always put the focus on self and have some sort of formula when the focus should be on Christ, Who is the source for the Fruit in our lives.
You may already familiar with the above embedded links, but if not, they're good reads where you may find encouragement and further healing.
I'm glad it blessed you, you're welcome!
-JGIG