The Sad Lives Of Legalists And Sinless Perfectionists

[Jason0047]

And you are describing NO Christians I know.

I have talked with folks both online and in person who believe that you can mow down a crowd of people with a sub machine and still be saved. So your world view is not what makes reality.

 

[Budman]

Then explain it to me nice and slow instead of insulting me.

You know Jason, I've noticed a pattern with you. You jump into every thread that promotes forgiveness of all sin through Christ, and the joy that results, and you bring the hammer down - hard. You seem to despise simple, saving faith. You bring with you your huge chest of works and law, and attempt to smother the flame of that simple joy.

Day after day, week after week, month after month you rip and tear into those who possess a quiet, confident faith in the salvation Christ offers. One that requires no works to receive or maintain. And when people start fighting back aggressively, using your own tactics against you, you act all "hurt" and "insulted" - demanding apologies all around.

And after you've destroyed a thread with your caustic legalism, you simply move on to the next, and the next, and the next. Leaving a proud trail of bitterness and frustration.

And yes - I truly believe you are proud of the chaos you cause. Thinking with your Pharisaical mind, that you're doing a wonderful service for Christ.

You rage against perceived slivers in the eyes of other, while completely ignoring the hypocritical forest of wood in your own.

You may now report me to a moderator for being "mean" to you.

 

[Willie-T]

So you think Peter was always discriminating against believers his whole life up until that point? The Scriptures really do not say now do they? Besides, the fact that Peter did not continue to discriminate after he was rebuked proves that God was convicting Peter of that sin thru another brother so that he would repent of it and then receive forgiveness. The apostles did not live in habitual unrepentant sin as a way of life. Yes, they might have stumbled on occasion but they did not live a life a sinner and or promote others to be that way, either (With the thinking that one was saved). For Titus 2:11-12 says that the Grace of God teaches us that we are to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and live righteously in this present world. Do you believe that??

And this is exactly how most Believers act today. Are you deciding that if Peter only discriminated for a week or two, that a Believer today who struggles with something for, oh say.... 16 days, is Hellbound as a perpetual sinner?

 

[Jason0047]

Jesus (Col 2:14) blotted out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Now then, if the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, like the first verse posted, which was contrary to Peter, has been taken out of the way, being nailed to the cross, can we not believe that the same thing is given to us, through being born again, trusting Jesus to have paid that price in full?

When you say are debt is paid in full, are you saying that a believer can sometimes sin and still be saved while they are sinning? How exactly does that work? Would not God be condoning sin and evil by rewarding his people with Heaven for evil that they have done in this life? How do you exactly understand Morality? Do you know what Morality is?

 

[tourist]

I have talked with folks both online and in person who believe that you can mow down a crowd of people with a sub machine and still be saved. So your world view is not what makes reality.

One that is saved would not do such a thing unless they were mentally ill.

 

[Jason0047]

And this is exactly how most Believers act today. Are you deciding that if Peter only discriminated for a week or two, that a Believer today who struggles with something for, oh say.... 16 days, is Hellbound as a perpetual sinner?

While a believer can receive grace and mercy, this is only in view of if they confess and forsake sin. If they are still in their sins and they are just trying to cover them up they will not prosper and nor will they receive mercy.

 

[Willie-T]

When you say are debt is paid in full, are you saying that a believer can sometimes sin and still be saved while they are sinning? How exactly does that work? Would not God be condoning sin and evil by rewarding his people with Heaven for evil that they have done in this life? How do you exactly understand Morality? Do you know what Morality is?

YES! It works by "Grace."

 

[Jason0047]

One that is saved would not do such a thing unless they were mentally ill.

David in a sense committed murder and he was forgiven. Granted, he did not stay a murder, though. That is the point.

 

[Willie-T]

While a believer can receive grace and mercy, this is only in view of if they confess and forsake sin. If they are still in their sins and they are just trying to cover them up they will not prosper and nor will they receive mercy.

How can it be "Grace" if you have earned it, and it is, then, due to you as wages? (Little Biblical thing, there.)

 

[Jason0047]

YES! It works by "Grace."

Okay, so what kind of sins could the believer be doing and yet still be saved? Could they have murdered someone? Could they have slept around with a bunch of girls? Push someone down a flight of steps? Burn down half the city? What sins are acceptable and not acceptable that a person can do all while they are being saved?

 

[Willie-T]

David in a sense committed murder and he was forgiven. Granted, he did not stay a murder, though. That is the point.

Are you qualifying things with the length of time David went before he "repented." Hummmm, I wonder how long that was....

 

[Skinski7]

You are still too busy casting stones to see clearly. First, I was not referencing all types of sins (i.e. Especially those sins that are very serious like the ones you mentioned).

So now you are making a distinction between child molestation/murder and getting drunk. In your mind a genuine Christian can occasionally "stumble" and get drunk but they cannot occasionally "stumble" and rape and murder?

On what basis do you make such a distinction? You give drunkenness a pass but not rape or murder? Why not?

For obviously my statement would not apply to one committing suicide (For one would not know if they would come back to the dead or not so as to repent of such a sin).

I wasn't speaking about suicide which I knew you would have an objection to. Suicide would leave on on the "sin side" of the sin/repent/sin/repent cycle you allude to.

You have a drunkard who "confesses he is a sinner" and then "accepts Jesus as his saviour" getting this "substitutional provision" you believe in getting applied. Then if this believer then "stumbles" (as you like to call it) and gets drunk he will not lose the "application of the provision" if he repents.

So why doesn't the same standard apply to a serial murderer or a child molester? Is it because you think those sins are worse?

Where do you draw the line? Lying, cheating and stealing is ok? How about fornication? What about homosexuality?

You are a sin defender. You pick and choose which sins to give a pass to and which sins not to give a pass to.

Second, I said that the alcoholic was on his road to recovery in BEING SOBER. Meaning, he was on his way to putting his addiction out of his life. A stumble into sin does not mean that the person is habitually sinning and or that he is going to not receive God's grace so as to help him to stop sinning in that sin that is a challenge for him.

So the you can sin so long as it is not habitual? Is that what you are saying?

When does the sin stop then? Next week? Next year?

Is there any sin that has to stop BEFORE God will grant mercy? Can you answer that question?

Look at what you are saying. You are clearly affirming the position that a drunkard can get drunk and be saved, so long as they repent (whatever you think that means) each time.

Like I said, you are a sin defender like all the others here.

Why don't you say...

Second, I said that the child molester was on his road to recovery in NOT RAPING BABIES. Meaning, he was on his way to putting his addiction out of his life. A stumble into sin does not mean that the person is habitually sinning and or that he is going to not receive God's grace so as to help him to stop sinning in that sin that is a challenge for him.

You ought to be logically consistent. If you start to use logic you will very quickly see the foolishness of your position.

But Jesus said all sin and blasphemy can be forgiven besides speaking bad against the Spirit. We also know that a believer can be forgiven of really horrible sins by just looking at the life of David.

David repented, he did not "stumble" back into his rebellion against God. David was under condemnation when he was in his sin. The sin of David had to stop.

The Bible says...

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

Do you believe that?

However, I believe there are greater sins that are a lot more serious that the Lord will help a believer with when they first accept Him.

Accept Him?

Where does the Bible teach that? Is "accept Jesus" what they preached in Acts?

In Acts did they preach, "confess you are a sinner" and "accept Jesus" ????

NO!

Act_26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

In other words the deeds of one who has truly repented is a reflection that they truly repented. A drunkard who repents does not continue to go and get drunk, the drunkard confessed and FORSOOK drunkenness.

I believe the cases where someone who is a child molester or a murderer is not saved if they keep doing those types of sin over and over.

Over and over? So they can do it on occasion? Or they can be saved and do it one more time?

You are defending sin. You are a sin defender.

Salvation is SAVED FROM SIN, not saved in it. No child of God is our molesting children, murdering people or getting drunk. Such conduct reveals that one is still a servant of sin. Why cannot you perceive that?

Original Sin and Penal Substitution has clearly neutralised your mind from an understanding of what the scripture so plainly teaches.

God changes the heart of a man to not want to do those very serious and evil things anymore.

REPENTANCE CHANGES THE HEART.

Repentance wrought through a godly sorrow effected by the Spirit of God working conviction, righteousness and judgement.

There is no magic "wait on God to change my desires." The desires change in repentance or they never will.

2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
2Co 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

Your "confess you are a sinner" and "accept Jesus as your saviour" is a REPLACEMENT for "godly sorrow works a repentance unto salvation."

Instead of preaching repentance you preach "confess, trust and receive" and then tack on a sin/repent/sin/repent cycle in an attempt to reconcile the obedience passages found in the Bible.

You need to reject "confess, trust and receive" and instead adhere to HEAR AND DO wrought via a GODLY SORROW THAT WORKS REPENTANCE whereby we yield to and abide in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ.

James said...

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

We don't "accept Jesus" after "confessing we are sinner."

NO!

We lay apart ALL filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness and receive with meekness the engrafted word which is able to save our souls. We HEAR AND DO.

Can you see the difference between your rhetoric and what the Bible plainly teaches?

He can take away those desires./quote]

Our desires are to be crucified in repentance.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Whereby we stop being drawn away into sin via the lusts of the flesh...

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

A drunkard doesn't "stumble" into getting drunk. A drunkard YIELDS TO TEMPTATION and sins against God. A drunkard has not crucified their old man.

This is how it works...

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Why not teach that Jason?

I am not saying that other sins unto spiritual death are not cause for concern for believers in regards to their salvation. What I am saying is not all sin is the same. Jesus said, there is a GREATER sin. 1 John 5:16-18 says there are sins that lead unto death and sins that do not lead unto death. There is unintentional sin. Hidden and secret faults (Psalm 19:12). There is unforgivable sins.

You brought up drunkenness Jason.

You stated that a drunk could get drunk and remain "saved" so long as they repented. Thus you believe that one can sin and not surely die, so long as they repent each time. That is what you taught and that is what you believe.

I am not speaking of sins of ignorance Jason. I am not speaking of hidden and secret faults. Even in regards to Psalm 19:12 a distinction is made between "hidden secrets and faults" and "presumptuous sin" (Psalm 19:13). Yet you appear to have ignored that distinction.

You know very well I am talking about willful sin here Jason and not sins of ignorance. Drunkness is not a sin of ignorance, it involves the free exercise of the will in accordance with knowledge. One does not accidentally stumble over and get drunk, one CHOOSES to drink to excess and get drunk.

Besides, do you think the Tax Collector was not forgiven in Luke 18:9-14? How was the thief on the cross forgiven?

They both repented. The issue here is not whether mercy is available for it clearly is. The issue is whether you can sin and not surely die. You have clearly stated that an individual can go and get drunk and remain forgiven so long as they repent afterwards.

 

[Willie-T]

Okay, so what kind of sins could the believer be doing and yet still be saved? Could they have murdered someone? Could they have slept around with a bunch of girls? Push someone down a flight of steps? Burn down half the city? What sins are acceptable and not acceptable that a person can do all while they are being saved?

You're Catholic, right? You classify "sins." God says one sin is OK, but another is not? (I really thought you were CoC.)

Jesus said.... even if you hate in your mind... or look with lust.

 

[Jason0047]

You know Jason, I've noticed a pattern with you. You jump into every thread that promotes forgiveness of all sin through Christ, and the joy that results, and you bring the hammer down - hard. You seem to despise simple, saving faith. You bring with you your huge chest of works and law, and attempt to smother the flame of that simple joy.

Day after day, week after week, month after month you rip and tear into those who possess a quiet, confident faith in the salvation Christ offers. One that requires no works to receive or maintain. And when people start fighting back aggressively, using your own tactics against you, you act all "hurt" and "insulted" - demanding apologies all around.

And after you've destroyed a thread with your caustic legalism, you simply move on to the next, and the next, and the next. Leaving a proud trail of bitterness and frustration.

And yes - I truly believe you are proud of the chaos you cause. Thinking with your Pharisaical mind, that you're doing a wonderful service for Christ.

You rage against perceived slivers in the eyes of other, while completely ignoring the hypocritical forest of wood in your own.

You may now report me to a moderator for being "mean" to you.

Actually no. I don't find your post offensive enough to report to a moderator. You would have to use offensive language and or slander me in a way that is totally inappropriate or you would have to constantly attack me with no real mention of the Scriptures in any way.

But even then,... I am commanded to love a person (even if they were to do such things).

Anyways, when I read your posts, I do not see any hint that we are to obey Jesus. I hope that is not what you mean. For Paul says that if any speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, they are proud and they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). For do you believe a person can sin and still be saved and refuse to repent of such sin and be okay with God?

 

[Jason0047]

You're Catholic, right? You classify "sins." God says one sin is OK, but another is not? (I really thought you were CoC.)

Jesus said.... even if you hate in your mind... or look with lust.

No, I am strongly against Catholicism and have spoken out against it on many occasions.

As for hate in your mind: Yeah, that is not really a problem for me.

 

[Skinski7]

So you do not think God can forgive somebody who struggles with sin? They are just out of luck and are thrown to the wolves? You do not think God has the power to help them? I disagree. With God nothing is impossible. Have you stopped sinning those sins that lead unto spiritual death? If you refuse to reply to this question, I will take that as a silent admission of your own guilt before God.

There is no "struggling with sin" in salvation.

There is "resisting temptation" in salvation, there is "enduring in the faith" in salvation, but there is no "struggling with sin."

By upholding the notion of "struggling with sin" you are upholding the notion that one can be saved and still sinning (willfully). In other words you do not believe that we are saved FROM sin but saved in it instead.

What kind of salvation leaves you a wretch still in service of sin? Think about that.

Only a perversion of salvation presents a salvation which does not actually save.


The sin that leads to death is obedience unto unrighteousness. Yes I have stopped obeying sin unto death and instead obey unto righteousness.

How about you Jason?

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Have you been made free from sin wherefore you have become a servant of righteousness? Have you obeyed from the heart to the doctrine delivered to us by Jesus Christ, the doctrine of HEAR AND DO?

 

[Willie-T]

You know Jason, I've noticed a pattern with you. You jump into every thread that promotes forgiveness of all sin through Christ, and the joy that results, and you bring the hammer down - hard. You seem to despise simple, saving faith. You bring with you your huge chest of works and law, and attempt to smother the flame of that simple joy.

Day after day, week after week, month after month you rip and tear into those who possess a quiet, confident faith in the salvation Christ offers. One that requires no works to receive or maintain. And when people start fighting back aggressively, using your own tactics against you, you act all "hurt" and "insulted" - demanding apologies all around.

And after you've destroyed a thread with your caustic legalism, you simply move on to the next, and the next, and the next. Leaving a proud trail of bitterness and frustration.

And yes - I truly believe you are proud of the chaos you cause. Thinking with your Pharisaical mind, that you're doing a wonderful service for Christ.

You rage against perceived slivers in the eyes of other, while completely ignoring the hypocritical forest of wood in your own.

You may now report me to a moderator for being "mean" to you.

Wow! I may have to revise my thinking of your position, Brother.

 

[JGIG]

Originally Posted by JGIG
......................There absolutely are consequences to sinning, but all JUDGMENT for sinning has been poured out at the Cross.

Who told you that? Why don't you post a link to your source?

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (from 1 Jn. 2)​

13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. (from Col. 1)

13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, (from Col. 2)​

12 “All things are lawful for me,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful for me,” but I will not be dominated by anything. 13 “Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food”—and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, andthe Lord for the body. 14 And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power. 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.” 17 But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. 18 Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body. (from 1 Cor. 6)

It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife.2 And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.
3 For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. 4 When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. (from 1 Cor 5)
​

It's flat wrong. Christ paid the price for our sin. Judgement is a future event.

What is the judgement for sin?

Death.

Who took that judgement?

Christ.

Where? When?

At the Cross, 2000 years ago.

The Bible says this:

28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. (from Heb. 9)​

God has enough assets in His account, thanks to Christ, to pay for everyones sins. But each individual has to have God redeem those sins.

Forgiveness is not on an installment program. Those who believe in Christ are assured of this:

7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. (from Eph. 1)​

There is no "redeem-His-Blood-as-you-go" indication there.

It is very possible, indeed the word talks about this very thing, that God will say, "Y'know, I have the ability to redeem you but you keep going back to sin. One of the conditions, and Christ told you this, was that you had to stop sinning and turn over a new leaf. You have no intention of doing that and I am not going to purchase a basket full of rotten apples with the precious price I would have to pay".

And what Scripture are you gleaning that last paragraph from???

God's not going to purchase a basket full of rotten apples??

Really?

So one has to be 'not rotten' before God will 'pay' for them?

Soooo contrary to what Scripture actually says . . .

6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.

7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. (from Rom. 5)​

-JGIG

 

[Willie-T]

No, I am strongly against Catholicism and have spoken out against it on many occasions.

As for hate in your mind: Yeah, that is not really a problem for me.

That wasn't the point. I was showing you that Jesus considered ANY thinking not in alignment with His was a problem for us..... DESPITE what "actions" we might be able to keep in check.

 

[Magenta]

[video=youtube;EfGDvDGE7zk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfGDvDGE7zk[/video]