The Sad Lives Of Legalists And Sinless Perfectionists

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
K

Karraster

Guest
#61
One day everybody is going to know that the Almighty Father does not change, and that His instructions are eternal. Yeah, the scriptures points to the Lamb to buy us back from breaking the blood covenant, but Messiah did not come to abolish Father's instructions. He is the completion of the instructions, Christ is the {end of} the "law" (kjv says "end of" but that don't mean over with, rather filled it up) Look at the verse that uses the same words (end of) where it speaks of our faith. Does that mean our faith ended? NO>
 
K

Karraster

Guest
#62
The Christian world is obsessed with sin. It's all we talk about. Most of our preaching and teaching is directed toward getting people to quit sinning. To use the analogy of the starving man, most Christian teaching is like a person following a starving man around saying, "You stay out of the garbage! Do you hear me? Don't eat the garbage!" Look, when you're truly hungry, you'll eat anything - even garbage.

But I promise you: If you get that man into the cafeteria line, and he begins experiencing what real food is like, he won't be nostalgically dreaming about the garbage out back.

But here is what legalists and sinless perfectionists do: They claim to offer believers good food, but in fact, point them back to garbage, and then condemn them for eating it. They place people back under the yoke of the Law through a works-righteousness religion. To them, it is performance that counts. How you live your life.

But think about this: If merely shaping up our actions were what God desired, then the Pharisees would have been His favorites!

Those type of Christians are better known for what they are against than for what they are for. The meanest, most unloving people on earth are legalists. And like the Pharisees, they are capable of feeling extremely righteous even in the act of stabbing a brother in the back.

People are attracted to Christ by the message of His total love and acceptance and of salvation by grace; then, once they're in the family of God, legalists/sinless perfectionists swoop down and level the believer with demands of performance and conformity. But the Bible says you can't have it both ways.

"And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace." (Romans 11:6)

Legalists love to claim that works and the Law are separate things - but they are not. Both the Law and works are a means to gain the acceptance of God through performance. A standard of living.

Law/works are the realm of what you earn. Grace is the realm of receiving a free gift. How could you ever mingle the two? You can't work for a gift, or it's not a gift. Even a payment of $1 takes it out of the realm of a gift. A gift is not a gift unless it is totally free.

Because of the mingling of Law and grace, multitudes of Christians are living in daily fear, frustration, and guilt. Believing that God is far away in disapproval, they are never free to discover Christ living in and through them.

We look into the mirror of the Law and see that we are lawbreakers and therefore under it's curse. Desperately we cry out to God, "How can I be saved?' and the answer comes: "Believe in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." Once we have come to this point, what further role does the Law have in our lives? NONE! It has done it's job! Its purpose was to drive us to Christ, and it has done so.

"Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the Law." (Galatians 3:25)

Under the Law 'the wages of sin is death' (Romans 6:23); but 'There is therefore now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus' (Romans 8:1)

That's one reason why the commands in the New Testament are not laws. The second reason is that we are not obeying those New Testament commands in order to be accepted by God. Under Law, a man works to be accepted by God. Under grace, a man serves because he is already accepted by God.

The legalist will always say that an emphasis on grace will lead to more sinning. But that's not what the Bible says:

"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It [the grace of God] teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope - the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ." (Titus 2:11-13)

The grace and love of God is the true motivation for the Christian life.

Legalists who believe that God likes them when they are good, but hammers them when they are bad, in turn, treat other people the exact same way!

If you have ever wondered why Christians' lives and morality often don't rise above the world's level, that is the reason.

Aside from God's unconditional love and acceptance, we have little power or motivation for true obedience. We must first receive God's unconditional love and acceptance for us, before we will ever learn to love Him in return. "We love Him because He first loved us." (1 John 4:19)

It is that message that transforms hearts and lives - not one of endless rules, regulations, and performance. Those who try to live according to the legalist standard will discover that real, abundant life is not found there - in fact, he will probably be even more miserable than when he was lost.

The legalist is like a Cop. He isn't interested in why you were speeding; he doesn't care whether or not you did it on purpose; nor is he interested in hearing about all the other days that you did abide by the law. All he knows is that you broke the law, and here is your penalty.

The attitude of those who live by the Law is anger and indignation, and the goal is justice via punishment; The attitude of those who live by grace is love, and their goal is the benefit and development of the person.

Legalists/sinless perfectionists are never humble. They are proud and arrogant. Quick to condemn, slow in showing mercy.

That's why grace is only available to the humble. Because only the humble will receive it. The humble will always find God to be gracious and compassionate. He will open the floodgates of His love to any man, woman, boy, or girl who comes to Him in humble faith. - Bob George
I urge you to study the miracles of Jesus. He was always smacking down the religious leaders for their takanot and ma'sim. (which added or took away from the Almighty's instructions) He was always upholding Father's Word. How is today any different? Who is doing what Messiah taught? Are we adding? Are we taking away?
 
Jul 1, 2015
584
9
0
#63
Again, it is not the believer doing the work, but it is God doing the "good work" in the believer.
God Himself is the judge of what is good and bad, i.e., what is of the Spirit and what is of the flesh. Those who think they do not do sin need to look more closely and ask the Lord to reveal if there be any wicked way in them...and stay there long enough to hear what He says.

Very dangerous to do "good works" and then say it is God doing it: that is prideful. Better by faith to do our best to walk in the Spirit while having no confidence in the flesh...and then signs will follow when God sees that faith, and the power of God can be manifest. God is then glorified, rather than ourselves, and that is good.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
#65
What a dreadful and false accusation.
He does that quite a bit....attributes thoughts, sayings and implications all the time to those who he doesnt agree with........he really likes to say the people say it is ok to sin and live a lifestyle of sin........makes me sick!
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
2,295
167
63
#66
Yeah, the scriptures points to the Lamb to buy us back from breaking the blood covenant, but . . . . . .
And with that big but you have just negated the Gospel . . .

-JGIG
 
Jul 1, 2015
584
9
0
#67
He does that quite a bit....attributes thoughts, sayings and implications all the time to those who he doesnt agree with........he really likes to say the people say it is ok to sin and live a lifestyle of sin........makes me sick!
I have never heard anyone who is genuinely saved say that it is ok to sin. I wonder if what he is doing is projecting onto everyone else what he will not face up to himself...

I love to read about Peter. He took the long road to find out that what Jesus said about him was true...and it broke him utterly. But what an apostle he was as a result, with all his flaws, even having to be told off by Paul for his attitude....yet many thousands were saved by his preaching.

I really don't think we can engage in any meaningful service without knowing and understanding that powerful and personal grace of God which sees our failures past present and future....and STILL made a way for us through Jesus' death. That sure is some love.
 
K

Karraster

Guest
#68
One day everybody is going to know that the Almighty Father does not change, and that His instructions are eternal. Yeah, the scriptures points to the Lamb to buy us back from breaking the blood covenant, but Messiah did not come to abolish Father's instructions. He is the completion of the instructions, Christ is the {end of} the "law" (kjv says "end of" but that don't mean over with, rather filled it up) Look at the verse that uses the same words (end of) where it speaks of our faith. Does that mean our faith ended? NO>
And with that big but you have just negated the Gospel . . .

-JGIG
I don't think so. Now you can quote half of a sentence I posted and make it "appear" that I did..but ya knew that now..didncha?
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
2,295
167
63
#69
One day everybody is going to know that the Almighty Father does not change, and that His instructions are eternal. Yeah, the scriptures points to the Lamb to buy us back from breaking the blood covenant, but Messiah did not come to abolish Father's instructions. He is the completion of the instructions, Christ is the {end of} the "law" (kjv says "end of" but that don't mean over with, rather filled it up) Look at the verse that uses the same words (end of) where it speaks of our faith. Does that mean our faith ended? NO>
And with that big but you have just negated the Gospel . . .

-JGIG
I don't think so. Now you can quote half of a sentence I posted and make it "appear" that I did..but ya knew that now..didncha?
That was the pivotal sentence in your post.

"Jesus did this stuff, BUT . . . ."

Regarding Christ being the end of the Law, I'll go with the long version, if you insist:

Romans 10:1-4
Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of
>>> God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, <<<
have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the
>>>end G5056 – telos <<<
of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

First, to deal with Christ as the end of the Law:


G5056 – telos

1) end
a) termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be (always of the end of some act or state, but not of the end of a period of time)
b) the end

1) the last in any succession or series
2) eternal
c) that by which a thing is finished, its close, issue
d) the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose
2) toll, custom (i.e. indirect tax on goods)


End, in this case, simply means end.

End of the Law for those in Christ.


A simple translation for the linguist guys.


But the HRM has to take meaning ‘1d’ to try to force a meaning into the text. Even then, their attempt falls short, as the Law points to Christ:


>>>>>>>>>> . . . He . . . Christ . . . <<<<<<<<



. . . is the end (the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose) of the Law, not the Law is the end of Christ!


The Law points to Christ, Christ does not point to the Law!


For those in Christ, the Law is abolished, and those in Christ
are released from the Law, having died to it!
(Rom. 10:4, Rom. 7:1-6, Eph. 2, Col. 2)

​-JGIG
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
#70
I have never heard anyone who is genuinely saved say that it is ok to sin. I wonder if what he is doing is projecting onto everyone else what he will not face up to himself...

I love to read about Peter. He took the long road to find out that what Jesus said about him was true...and it broke him utterly. But what an apostle he was as a result, with all his flaws, even having to be told off by Paul for his attitude....yet many thousands were saved by his preaching.

I really don't think we can engage in any meaningful service without knowing and understanding that powerful and personal grace of God which sees our failures past present and future....and STILL made a way for us through Jesus' death. That sure is some love.
I agree for sure.....Christ called me and saved me knowing full well every sin I would commit both past, present and future.....it blows my mind how many reject the fact that we are in a body of sin that fails the Lord daily...yet he covers our sin, hides us in his righteousness and can use us as a vessel to bring honor to his name......!
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
#72
Then why are you and every other OSAS proponent against the idea so strongly?
All this does is prove you are ignorant about what we believe and teach.....it also shows you have no clue as to what the bible teaches about believers and sin, about the born again spirit and the fallen wicked body that the spirit resides in, about Paul's teaching, Jesus, James and others........you know..the only chance you have is if you actually believed in eternal security when you acknowledged it before you fell into Satan's trap of the loss of eternal life!
 
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
#73
I have never heard anyone who is genuinely saved say that it is ok to sin. I wonder if what he is doing is projecting onto everyone else what he will not face up to himself...

I love to read about Peter. He took the long road to find out that what Jesus said about him was true...and it broke him utterly. But what an apostle he was as a result, with all his flaws, even having to be told off by Paul for his attitude....yet many thousands were saved by his preaching.

I really don't think we can engage in any meaningful service without knowing and understanding that powerful and personal grace of God which sees our failures past present and future....and STILL made a way for us through Jesus' death. That sure is some love.
When you say future sin is forgiven, you are telling people that they have a license to sin. For when you remove any kind of consequence, then gives a person the green light that there is no sin that can separate them from God and Heaven. This is wrong.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
#74
When you say future sin is forgiven, you are telling people that they have a license to sin. For when you remove any kind of consequence, then gives a person the green light that there is no sin that can separate them from God and Heaven. This is wrong.
No what is wrong is your interpretation of what we believe and or teach! Ignorance at best!
 
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
#75
All this does is prove you are ignorant about what we believe and teach.....it also shows you have no clue as to what the bible teaches about believers and sin, about the born again spirit and the fallen wicked body that the spirit resides in, about Paul's teaching, Jesus, James and others........you know..the only chance you have is if you actually believed in eternal security when you acknowledged it before you fell into Satan's trap of the loss of eternal life!
The problem is that you sometimes try and come off like the good guy by the fact that you do not condone a sin and still be saved doctrine, but yet this is defeated by the fact that you promote 1 John 1:8 as saying you will always be in some kind of sin. Which means you can sin and still be saved (Which is a license to sin). Or is that not correct?
 
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
#78
That was the pivotal sentence in your post.

"Jesus did this stuff, BUT . . . ."

Regarding Christ being the end of the Law, I'll go with the long version, if you insist:
Romans 10:1-4
Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of
>>> God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, <<<
have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the
>>>end G5056 – telos <<<
of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

First, to deal with Christ as the end of the Law:


G5056 – telos

1) end
a) termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be (always of the end of some act or state, but not of the end of a period of time)
b) the end

1) the last in any succession or series
2) eternal
c) that by which a thing is finished, its close, issue
d) the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose
2) toll, custom (i.e. indirect tax on goods)


End, in this case, simply means end.

End of the Law for those in Christ.


A simple translation for the linguist guys.


But the HRM has to take meaning ‘1d’ to try to force a meaning into the text. Even then, their attempt falls short, as the Law points to Christ:


>>>>>>>>>> . . . He . . . Christ . . . <<<<<<<<



. . . is the end (the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose) of the Law, not the Law is the end of Christ!


The Law points to Christ, Christ does not point to the Law!


For those in Christ, the Law is abolished, and those in Christ
are released from the Law, having died to it!
(Rom. 10:4, Rom. 7:1-6, Eph. 2, Col. 2)

​-JGIG
Many times, the word "Law" is in reference to the Law of Moses and it was not in reference to the Law of Christ, or the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, the Royal Law, and or the Law of Faith. Paul talked many times about how we should not go back to the Old Covenant Law.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
#79
The problem is that you sometimes try and come off like the good guy by the fact that you do not condone a sin and still be saved doctrine, but yet this is defeated by the fact that you promote 1 John 1:8 as saying you will always be in some kind of sin. Which means you can sin and still be saved (Which is a license to sin). Or is that not correct?
Jason...I have explained it, so has numerous others and you still have no concept that it is the spirit which does not sin and it is bound in a fallen body which does sin....every thing you touch is marred by the body you reside in......the battle ground is the mind and no matter how you slice and dice..NO ONE can GO their whole life and NOT SIN...this in NO way shape or form equates to living a lifestyle of SIN.......the bible is clear and NUMEROUS writers attest to this, but you keep rejecting it while pulling verses out of context to try and say something that the bible does not say.....it does not teach that we are sinless...it teaches that we do occasionally fail and SIN and there are those who sell out to a lifestyle of sin.....GOD ONLY CHASTISES SONS who are LIVING IN SIN..........YOU say a child cannot live in SIN as they will LOSE SALVATION...GOD says a CHILD can be disobedient and live in SIN and WILL GET WHIPPED FOR IT and return unto the peaceable fruits of righteousness....YOU cannot LOSE SALVATION!
 
Jul 1, 2015
584
9
0
#80
When you say future sin is forgiven, you are telling people that they have a license to sin. For when you remove any kind of consequence, then gives a person the green light that there is no sin that can separate them from God and Heaven. This is wrong.
So what you are demonstrating here is that you have not understood that Jesus took the punishment for and the consequences of our sin, past present and future. It is NOT a license to sin in the future because when we are born again, that old man becames as dead as it can be eternally speaking. We cannot take that dead flesh into eternity with us and since it is dead eternally speaking it has no place in hell either. We are free from it. We are a new creation and we now are able to do things God's way. Because He first loved us we WANT to do things His way. Christ in us the hope of glory: THE hope; the ONLY hope.

As a new creation old things are passed away and all things have become new. New inheritance and a new eternal destiny. A new Father!!! Father in heaven. A new family, the children of God. How awesome is that?

Walk in the Spirit and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Cannot walk in the Spirit if you are not IN the Spirit, and you cannot be IN the Spirit unless you are born again.

Lay down those graveclothes of dead religion and let Jesus change you.