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I am not sure which translation you are using but can you share with me where the Bible says that the number that couldn't be numbered were all martyred
Mar"tyr (?), n. [AS., from L. martyr, Gr. ma`rtyr, ma`rtys, prop., a witness; cf. Skr. smṛ to remember, E. memory.] 1. One who, by his death, bears witness to the truth of the gospel; one who is put to death for his religion; as, Stephen was the first Christian martyr. Chaucer.</I>
please be careful in changing the Word of God to prove your point
R
Clearly, it would be a mistake to assume that the Holy Spirit will be completely removed from the earth because we know that to be impossible. The Holy Spirit is omnipresent and therefore cannot be completely removed from the earth.
I do believe the Holy Spirit will be both present and active in the tribulation period and play a role in the saving of the ones who will believe in God in that time. However, we must differentiate the role of the Holy Spirit within the church age and in the tribulation period. First, let us remember that the Holy Spirit was given as a “gift” to the church. He indwells the believers and He is never to leave them. It is the Church, being indwelled by the Holy Spirit, that is holding such evil that the man of lawlessness will unleash. In the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit came upon the people of God and could leave also leave them for David prayed in the book of Psalms to the Lord not take His Spirit from him (Psalms 51:11). Second, the believers within the church age makes up the “body of Christ.” The reason why the church is absent during the tribulation period in Revelation is because the body of Christ, the Church, is not there. The saints in revelation are tribulation saints, which is another group of believers, and not the body of Christ.
The Holy Spirit was present in the Old Testament, but as you already know His ministry in the OT is very different during the church age. It will be like this as well in during the tribulation period. With the absence of the Body of Christ, the Church, the Holy Spirit will revert to the way He used to work in the Old Testament or work differently. He will not be carrying His unique ministry He had with the church or convincing the world of sin.
Furthermore, the evidence of God will be so apparent in the tribulation period, like it was with the Israelites in the OT, that it will not require much faith to believe in God as it does in the church age.
Read the whole chapter of Joel 2. I want to emphasize on verse 31-32 “The sun will become dark, and the moon will turn blood red before that great and terrible day of the Lord arrives. But everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved, for some on Mount Zion in Jerusalem will escape, just as the Lord has said. These will be among the survivors whom the Lord has called.”
I do believe that the Holy Spirit will aid people in believing in Christ. However, as I already pointed out, His unique ministry within the church is and will totally be different since He will be dealing with a complete new type of believers.
I do believe the Holy Spirit will be both present and active in the tribulation period and play a role in the saving of the ones who will believe in God in that time. However, we must differentiate the role of the Holy Spirit within the church age and in the tribulation period. First, let us remember that the Holy Spirit was given as a “gift” to the church. He indwells the believers and He is never to leave them. It is the Church, being indwelled by the Holy Spirit, that is holding such evil that the man of lawlessness will unleash. In the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit came upon the people of God and could leave also leave them for David prayed in the book of Psalms to the Lord not take His Spirit from him (Psalms 51:11). Second, the believers within the church age makes up the “body of Christ.” The reason why the church is absent during the tribulation period in Revelation is because the body of Christ, the Church, is not there. The saints in revelation are tribulation saints, which is another group of believers, and not the body of Christ.
The Holy Spirit was present in the Old Testament, but as you already know His ministry in the OT is very different during the church age. It will be like this as well in during the tribulation period. With the absence of the Body of Christ, the Church, the Holy Spirit will revert to the way He used to work in the Old Testament or work differently. He will not be carrying His unique ministry He had with the church or convincing the world of sin.
Furthermore, the evidence of God will be so apparent in the tribulation period, like it was with the Israelites in the OT, that it will not require much faith to believe in God as it does in the church age.
Read the whole chapter of Joel 2. I want to emphasize on verse 31-32 “The sun will become dark, and the moon will turn blood red before that great and terrible day of the Lord arrives. But everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved, for some on Mount Zion in Jerusalem will escape, just as the Lord has said. These will be among the survivors whom the Lord has called.”
I do believe that the Holy Spirit will aid people in believing in Christ. However, as I already pointed out, His unique ministry within the church is and will totally be different since He will be dealing with a complete new type of believers.
O
What I realize is that not only is it not referring to the Holy spirit but that it couldn't be. God tell us He will never leave us nor forsake us, so either God is a liar, or this he who lets could not possibly be the Holy Spirit.
The thought that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit is a result of more pretrib lies and propaganda.
The thought that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit is a result of more pretrib lies and propaganda.
I,m tryin ta learn here and I,m seeing NO proof of of a rapture what so ever in scripture, and arguing that its there,without any scriptural backing aint proovin it either y'all........NONE of you have shown( through scripture) your backing for any taking away before the mellinium........All I can find in the scripture is that Jesus comes back at the 7th trump and changes EVERYONE..........sinner and saved alike........So wheres the taking out of the saved before the LAST trump........at the last trump ALL are changed
T
Only the righteous are changed when Christ comes... the wicked will drop dead from the brightness of His glory.
"And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:" 2 Thess 2:8
"And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh." Rev 19:21
"And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:" 2 Thess 2:8
"And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh." Rev 19:21
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall ALL be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Now if This verse is only refering to ONLY the saved or "righteous" \
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and Godliness
\Then Why does Isaiah say this about the self same day.........
Isa 2:11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
Isa 2:12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
And in another place
Amo 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
Amo 5:19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.
Amo 5:20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
THIS dont look like a rapture to me.....it looks like what Jesus said in Mat.13
Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
WORLD=
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.
G104
ἀεί
aei
ah-eye'
From an obsolete primary noun (apparently meaning continued duration); "ever"; by qualification regularly; by implication earnestly: - always, ever.
G5550
χρόνος
chronos
khron'-os
Of uncertain derivation; a space of time (in genitive case, and thus properly distinguished from G2540, which designates a fixed or special occasion; and from G165, which denotes a particular period) or interval; by extension an individual opportunity; by implication delay: - + years old, season, space, (X often-) time (-s), (a) while.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall ALL be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Now if This verse is only refering to ONLY the saved or "righteous" \
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and Godliness
\Then Why does Isaiah say this about the self same day.........
Isa 2:11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
Isa 2:12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
And in another place
Amo 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
Amo 5:19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.
Amo 5:20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
THIS dont look like a rapture to me.....it looks like what Jesus said in Mat.13
Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
WORLD=
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.
G104
ἀεί
aei
ah-eye'
From an obsolete primary noun (apparently meaning continued duration); "ever"; by qualification regularly; by implication earnestly: - always, ever.
G5550
χρόνος
chronos
khron'-os
Of uncertain derivation; a space of time (in genitive case, and thus properly distinguished from G2540, which designates a fixed or special occasion; and from G165, which denotes a particular period) or interval; by extension an individual opportunity; by implication delay: - + years old, season, space, (X often-) time (-s), (a) while.
R
Notice that in verse 15 it says "Now this I say, brethren?" This identifies who Paul was speaking to and who he refered to as "we."
So when it says in verse 51 that "we shall all be changed," the all here is refering to the "we" (meaning the brethren in verse 50). So clearly, Paul was really saying that all believers (we) will be changed.
Here, I don't see any reference to rapture. The author is simply giving a general information on the Day of The Lord. We know that the believers were troubled, being going through severe persecution and tribulation, and wandering when the Day of the Lord will come. They were even concerned that that day will never come (verse 9).
Remember that this passage is Jesus' explanation of His parable in verses 24-30. Of course this (the verses in Matthew) does not look like rapture because it is not a rapture. This is when Jesus comes at the end of the tribulation period where he will separate the righteous and the wicked. The Righteous will be put into the "barn" while the wicked will be thrown into the "fire." This fire is talking about the great white throne Judgment when the wicked will be thrown into the lake of fire along with the enemy. Revelation 20:11-14
Notice that in verse 15 it says "Now this I say, brethren?" This identifies who Paul was speaking to and who he refered to as "we."
So when it says in verse 51 that "we shall all be changed," the all here is refering to the "we" (meaning the brethren in verse 50). So clearly, Paul was really saying that all believers (we) will be changed.
I could buy that for an explanation, except I've read the whole chapter.
now examining the verses before verse 51....we tie in the context of the next few....The whole chapter is referring to the resurection of the dead, Not the Day of the Lord ,Nor the church only.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Look at this verse here...............
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept
the context of this sentence is Past tence(Slept) meaning already asleep.
So what you are calling a rapture is already happened and been fulfilled and documented in Ephesians...............
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
And prophesied in psalms
Psa 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.
Psa 68:19 Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah.
Psa 68:20 He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto GOD the Lord belong the issues from death.(read the rest of this one youll like it)
calrified in 1st peter
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
And again Here......
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
So these verses state that the Jesus was the Frist fruits, 1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Now lets look at this verse.......we see who the first fruits are,Now these guys.......They that are Christs' at His coming...Why dont Paul say WE here?
Aint he one of Christs? if the We in verse 51 were referring to Only the brethren Why not include the church or himself here> Or perhaps the They that is being refrred to are the ones led out of captivity of death during the 3 days in the tomb,that return with Him at the Last Trump. Now that leaves us with these verses here to tie the subject all together....
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Now I believe this is referring to the 7th trump,And the mellinial kingdom.
till vv.26 .which is referring to the white throne judgement..cuz not till then is death fully dispatched or defeated.....Then again I could be wrong.
But never the less the subject of this chapter is resurection of the dead and not the church,nor the resurection of believers only.
we all know that all souls are eternal, unless you dont believe in an eternal hell.
in that case i dont recon you could.......
some folx dont...I do tho
So when it says in verse 51 that "we shall all be changed," the all here is refering to the "we" (meaning the brethren in verse 50). So clearly, Paul was really saying that all believers (we) will be changed.
I could buy that for an explanation, except I've read the whole chapter.
now examining the verses before verse 51....we tie in the context of the next few....The whole chapter is referring to the resurection of the dead, Not the Day of the Lord ,Nor the church only.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Look at this verse here...............
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept
the context of this sentence is Past tence(Slept) meaning already asleep.
So what you are calling a rapture is already happened and been fulfilled and documented in Ephesians...............
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
And prophesied in psalms
Psa 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.
Psa 68:19 Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah.
Psa 68:20 He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto GOD the Lord belong the issues from death.(read the rest of this one youll like it)
calrified in 1st peter
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
And again Here......
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
So these verses state that the Jesus was the Frist fruits, 1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Now lets look at this verse.......we see who the first fruits are,Now these guys.......They that are Christs' at His coming...Why dont Paul say WE here?
Aint he one of Christs? if the We in verse 51 were referring to Only the brethren Why not include the church or himself here> Or perhaps the They that is being refrred to are the ones led out of captivity of death during the 3 days in the tomb,that return with Him at the Last Trump. Now that leaves us with these verses here to tie the subject all together....
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Now I believe this is referring to the 7th trump,And the mellinial kingdom.
till vv.26 .which is referring to the white throne judgement..cuz not till then is death fully dispatched or defeated.....Then again I could be wrong.
But never the less the subject of this chapter is resurection of the dead and not the church,nor the resurection of believers only.
we all know that all souls are eternal, unless you dont believe in an eternal hell.
in that case i dont recon you could.......
some folx dont...I do tho
pre trib, post trib, mid trib... who cares. Its all irrelevant to me... What happens will happen and the LORD will give us what we need to get through. I may get hit by a bus tomorrow, slowly die of cancer next year... focus on your joy in Christ for He is sufficient. Stop living in FEAR. Start LIVING in Christ. Its good to know the Lords Revelation to be aware of what is going to happen so you are not deceived, but why all this arguing between people who ALL state that they put their faith in Christ the Lord? I just dont get it? What am I missing? Should I live in fear of what is about to happen? I think not. (Satan would love it if I did though... I could spend money on supplies, seeking out conspiracy theory's & focus on building up bunkers instead of building up my relationship with the Lord) In Childlike Faith... imoss.
Imoss.......Good points.....But Im not arguing I just really reall want to see where he rapture is ion the bible....in black and white or even red ink......
and rosinsky........the answer to your quwstion is ,I dont believe there is a rapture at all..........Not because I have seen some revelation from God ,But in my studies I,ve Never seen anything even resembling what most folx say is gunna take plae in the rapture,
But I, not trying to argue I just want to ompair scriptures to see where Im missin it ya know?
and rosinsky........the answer to your quwstion is ,I dont believe there is a rapture at all..........Not because I have seen some revelation from God ,But in my studies I,ve Never seen anything even resembling what most folx say is gunna take plae in the rapture,
But I, not trying to argue I just want to ompair scriptures to see where Im missin it ya know?
N
Im with Imoss...Im tryin to stay focused on my relationship with God. Not sayin its not good to compare and to study differences ppl have and where and why they come to that conclusion, way I figure it, if I study and show thyself aprroved Gods gonna show me exactly what he wants me to know, rapture or no rapture, as long as I got my eye on the prize its all good. I sincerely hope you all find the answeres your lookin for.
R
Oh... ok, thanks for clarifying this up.
One thing we must understand is that although we must examine words and sometimes deal with particular words in a text, words should never be the cause for our end result. Words in and of themselves are stupid things that until linked other words to bring out the true meaning of a particular text.
Now let's examine the scripture in light of the meaning of the words to bring out Paul's message.
1 Thessalonians 4:17: Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them
It says here that those who are alive will be caught up. Now as you explained above, the Greek word Harpazo, means to seize, catch up or catch away, pluck, pull or take by force. We can agree that there is a taking or pulling away of those who are alive. The word itself does not determine destination of the raptures (or the taking away) in the bible. It only states that there will be a taking away of the believers.
Let's take a look at some verses where the same word used for rapture has been used in scriptures. This word has been used 17 times in 13 verses in the New Testament. I want to select a few of those verse for clarity.
Acts 8:39 - And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
1 Corinthians 12:2 - I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
such an one caught up to the third heaven.
1 Corinthians 12:4 - How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Revelation12:5 - And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
In every single one of these verses, we see that there was a rapture, similar to the one you do not believe in, that took place.
1 Thessalonians 4:17: ...in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord
Now we see the destination of the catching away, or rapture. So we see that there was a catching away of those that believed by Christ in the clouds. I know that you are making the agreement that this cloud could mean a great quantity by comparing it with Hebrew 12:1. First, Hebrew 12:1 and 1 Thessalonians 4:17 are two mutually exclusive verses that have no relationship whatsoever with each other. Furthermore, the Greek word used for both are two totally different verse. Lastly, a very close study of the use of the Greek word that is used for clouds in verse 17 shows that it has always been used to represent the clouds as we know it.
For further evidence of the destination of the rapture, verse 17 continues to say:
1 Thessalonians 4:17: ...to meet the Lord in the air
Those who are alive, along with the risen dead, will rapture in the clouds to meet with the Lord... where? in the air. The definition of air in and of itself does not help us here. It is only when you put the word "air" in its context that you have the proper meaning of the word and its used in the text. So the Christians, alive and the risen dead, will be raptured in the clouds and the purpose for that was to meet with Jesus in the air. Why? "so we shall always be with the Lord."
It is understandable that there may be disagreements on the timing of this rapture, but there should not be one as far as whether or not a rapture had taken place. Clearly, the context itself shows that there will be a rapture that takes place.
, and so we shall always be with the Lord
As I already pointed out above, though this is possible, it is not what will happen. The verse itself prove this to be false. Furthermore, the greek word used in Hebrew 1 here is Nephos as opposed to the one used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 (Nephele). The word Nephos has only been used once in the whole New Testament and in its one place of usage means a multitude. Beside, here it says "a could of witnesses." Clearly, this means a great multitude. In contrast, verse 17 in Thessalonians 4 says we will be raptured in the coulds to meet Jesus in the air.
This is simply because at that time, when Jesus comes at the end of the tribulation period, there will be no rapture. Scriptures do not say there is one. Jesus will come with those who had been raptured.
One thing we must understand is that although we must examine words and sometimes deal with particular words in a text, words should never be the cause for our end result. Words in and of themselves are stupid things that until linked other words to bring out the true meaning of a particular text.
Now let's examine the scripture in light of the meaning of the words to bring out Paul's message.
1 Thessalonians 4:17: Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them
It says here that those who are alive will be caught up. Now as you explained above, the Greek word Harpazo, means to seize, catch up or catch away, pluck, pull or take by force. We can agree that there is a taking or pulling away of those who are alive. The word itself does not determine destination of the raptures (or the taking away) in the bible. It only states that there will be a taking away of the believers.
Let's take a look at some verses where the same word used for rapture has been used in scriptures. This word has been used 17 times in 13 verses in the New Testament. I want to select a few of those verse for clarity.
Acts 8:39 - And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
1 Corinthians 12:2 - I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
such an one caught up to the third heaven.1 Corinthians 12:4 - How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Revelation12:5 - And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
In every single one of these verses, we see that there was a rapture, similar to the one you do not believe in, that took place.
1 Thessalonians 4:17: ...in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord
Now we see the destination of the catching away, or rapture. So we see that there was a catching away of those that believed by Christ in the clouds. I know that you are making the agreement that this cloud could mean a great quantity by comparing it with Hebrew 12:1. First, Hebrew 12:1 and 1 Thessalonians 4:17 are two mutually exclusive verses that have no relationship whatsoever with each other. Furthermore, the Greek word used for both are two totally different verse. Lastly, a very close study of the use of the Greek word that is used for clouds in verse 17 shows that it has always been used to represent the clouds as we know it.
For further evidence of the destination of the rapture, verse 17 continues to say:
1 Thessalonians 4:17: ...to meet the Lord in the air
Those who are alive, along with the risen dead, will rapture in the clouds to meet with the Lord... where? in the air. The definition of air in and of itself does not help us here. It is only when you put the word "air" in its context that you have the proper meaning of the word and its used in the text. So the Christians, alive and the risen dead, will be raptured in the clouds and the purpose for that was to meet with Jesus in the air. Why? "so we shall always be with the Lord."
It is understandable that there may be disagreements on the timing of this rapture, but there should not be one as far as whether or not a rapture had taken place. Clearly, the context itself shows that there will be a rapture that takes place.
, and so we shall always be with the Lord
As I already pointed out above, though this is possible, it is not what will happen. The verse itself prove this to be false. Furthermore, the greek word used in Hebrew 1 here is Nephos as opposed to the one used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 (Nephele). The word Nephos has only been used once in the whole New Testament and in its one place of usage means a multitude. Beside, here it says "a could of witnesses." Clearly, this means a great multitude. In contrast, verse 17 in Thessalonians 4 says we will be raptured in the coulds to meet Jesus in the air.
This is simply because at that time, when Jesus comes at the end of the tribulation period, there will be no rapture. Scriptures do not say there is one. Jesus will come with those who had been raptured.