R
MahogonySnail,
Before I respond to your posts, I would like to see your response to this post (modified) that I made before.
Before I respond to your posts, I would like to see your response to this post (modified) that I made before.
I am going to start with the "6 points that prove post trib rapture" you've presented as I see that I have never really responded to them. I will modify the format of your quotes just for space purposes. I do not mean anything harmful in doing that.
I agree with you that “the 2nd coming is after the tribulation and there is a gathering of the elect at that time.” The scripture clearly makes this quite clear that this is the case. The misunderstanding here, however, is not so much about the gathering of the elect, but about their identity. Who are they? The elect are those who accepted Christ during the tribulation and the Jews (that is all Jews who rejected Christ during the church age who were not raptured with the church). The church, in this passage, is not part of the elect. The reason is because the church will not partake in the tribulation period. A close study of Daniel will reveal this to be true.
#I - The seven years (or the 70th week), the last week of Daniel’s prophesy of the seventy weeks, tribulation period have nothing to do with the church but everything to do with Israel. We must ask why the tribulation period? Where did it come from? To whom it was addressed to? Why? The book of Daniel gives us the answers to these questions.
Daniel 9:1-2 It was the first year of the reign of Darius the Mede, the son of Ahasuerus, who became king of the Babylonians. 2 During the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, learned from reading the word of the Lord, as revealed to Jeremiah the prophet, that Jerusalem must lie desolate for seventy years.
Daniel found out by reading the Word of God from the book of Jeremiah that Jerusalem “must lie desolate for seventy years. As a result, he began fasting and pleading to God so that He would rescind this Judgment upon Jerusalem. Daniel began praying in verse and all the way to verse 19 just to see if He can mediate for his (Daniel’s) people, Israel.
God sent Gabriel to answer Daniel’s prayer. He said “A period of seventy sets of seven has been decreed for your people and your holy city to finish their rebellion, to put an end to their sin, to atone for their guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to confirm the prophetic vision, and to anoint the Most Holy Place.” (verse 24).
Here, clearly the angel reinstated what was previously stated to Daniel and that even though the Lord heard his plea for his people, Israel, the judgment set upon her was would happen no matter what.
The angel Gabriel went on and said “Now listen and understand! Seven sets of seven plus sixty-two sets of seven will pass from the time the command is given to rebuild Jerusalem until a ruler—the Anointed One—comes. Jerusalem will be rebuilt with streets and strong defenses, despite the perilous times. 26 “After this period of sixty-two sets of seven, the Anointed One will be killed, appearing to have accomplished nothing, and a ruler will arise whose armies will destroy the city and the Temple. The end will come with a flood, and war and its miseries are decreed from that time to the very end. 27 The ruler will make a treaty with the people for a period of one set of seven, but after half this time, he will put an end to the sacrifices and offerings. And as a climax to all his terrible deeds, he will set up a sacrilegious object that causes desecration, until the fate decreed for this defiler is finally poured out on him” (verses 25-27).
So as you can see from the scriptures above, Gabriel told Daniel that after the first 69 (Seven sets of seven plus sixty-two sets of seven --- 7 + 62 = 69), the Messiah will come.
Now there remains the 70th set of seven (verse 27) that has yet to happen. This last week is the seven years of tribulation period that we discussing about. As you can see in verse 27, the “ruler” will make a treaty with the people for seven years.
NOTE: For anyone reading this post that needs a more thorough explanation of the 70 sets of 7s, please use any good bible commentary. I took a quick look and found a suitable one that you may use if you’re interested. Click Here
Notice that the 70th set of seven should have come immediately after the 69th? However, we notice that there is a gap between the 69th and the 70th and what lies between the two is the church age, which we are currently living in. This shows that the reason why the 70th set of seven has not happened yet is because the Church is holding it back. The church needs to be removed before the 70th set of seven begins.
#III - The Church is absolutely absent from the tribulation period. Is this a coincidence? Far from it, it is simply because it is not there.
Those who hold the post tribulation view insist that those “saints” that are found in several places during the tribulation period has to be the church. However, given the fact that the tribulation period was not set for the church but for Israel, the fact that before the opening of the 7th seal 144,000 were sealed with God’s seal on earth, the fact that there will be many who turn to Christ during the tribulation period, we know that these saints are 1) the 144,000, 2) Israelites/Jews, and 3) those who have accepted Christ during the seven years tribulation.
I agree with you that “the 2nd coming is after the tribulation and there is a gathering of the elect at that time.” The scripture clearly makes this quite clear that this is the case. The misunderstanding here, however, is not so much about the gathering of the elect, but about their identity. Who are they? The elect are those who accepted Christ during the tribulation and the Jews (that is all Jews who rejected Christ during the church age who were not raptured with the church). The church, in this passage, is not part of the elect. The reason is because the church will not partake in the tribulation period. A close study of Daniel will reveal this to be true.
#I - The seven years (or the 70th week), the last week of Daniel’s prophesy of the seventy weeks, tribulation period have nothing to do with the church but everything to do with Israel. We must ask why the tribulation period? Where did it come from? To whom it was addressed to? Why? The book of Daniel gives us the answers to these questions.
Daniel 9:1-2 It was the first year of the reign of Darius the Mede, the son of Ahasuerus, who became king of the Babylonians. 2 During the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, learned from reading the word of the Lord, as revealed to Jeremiah the prophet, that Jerusalem must lie desolate for seventy years.
Daniel found out by reading the Word of God from the book of Jeremiah that Jerusalem “must lie desolate for seventy years. As a result, he began fasting and pleading to God so that He would rescind this Judgment upon Jerusalem. Daniel began praying in verse and all the way to verse 19 just to see if He can mediate for his (Daniel’s) people, Israel.
God sent Gabriel to answer Daniel’s prayer. He said “A period of seventy sets of seven has been decreed for your people and your holy city to finish their rebellion, to put an end to their sin, to atone for their guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to confirm the prophetic vision, and to anoint the Most Holy Place.” (verse 24).
Here, clearly the angel reinstated what was previously stated to Daniel and that even though the Lord heard his plea for his people, Israel, the judgment set upon her was would happen no matter what.
The angel Gabriel went on and said “Now listen and understand! Seven sets of seven plus sixty-two sets of seven will pass from the time the command is given to rebuild Jerusalem until a ruler—the Anointed One—comes. Jerusalem will be rebuilt with streets and strong defenses, despite the perilous times. 26 “After this period of sixty-two sets of seven, the Anointed One will be killed, appearing to have accomplished nothing, and a ruler will arise whose armies will destroy the city and the Temple. The end will come with a flood, and war and its miseries are decreed from that time to the very end. 27 The ruler will make a treaty with the people for a period of one set of seven, but after half this time, he will put an end to the sacrifices and offerings. And as a climax to all his terrible deeds, he will set up a sacrilegious object that causes desecration, until the fate decreed for this defiler is finally poured out on him” (verses 25-27).
So as you can see from the scriptures above, Gabriel told Daniel that after the first 69 (Seven sets of seven plus sixty-two sets of seven --- 7 + 62 = 69), the Messiah will come.
Now there remains the 70th set of seven (verse 27) that has yet to happen. This last week is the seven years of tribulation period that we discussing about. As you can see in verse 27, the “ruler” will make a treaty with the people for seven years.
NOTE: For anyone reading this post that needs a more thorough explanation of the 70 sets of 7s, please use any good bible commentary. I took a quick look and found a suitable one that you may use if you’re interested. Click Here
Notice that the 70th set of seven should have come immediately after the 69th? However, we notice that there is a gap between the 69th and the 70th and what lies between the two is the church age, which we are currently living in. This shows that the reason why the 70th set of seven has not happened yet is because the Church is holding it back. The church needs to be removed before the 70th set of seven begins.
#III - The Church is absolutely absent from the tribulation period. Is this a coincidence? Far from it, it is simply because it is not there.
Those who hold the post tribulation view insist that those “saints” that are found in several places during the tribulation period has to be the church. However, given the fact that the tribulation period was not set for the church but for Israel, the fact that before the opening of the 7th seal 144,000 were sealed with God’s seal on earth, the fact that there will be many who turn to Christ during the tribulation period, we know that these saints are 1) the 144,000, 2) Israelites/Jews, and 3) those who have accepted Christ during the seven years tribulation.
