The Rapture Theory

MahogonySnail · Feb 14, 2009

I'm not sure what the comparisons between old testament and new are supposed to show.. do you believe that those saved after the removal of the church and Spirit in the rapture, are under the Old Testament Laws?

If the Spirit is removed in the rapture... tell me how people are going to be converted and saved without the Spirit?

MahogonySnail · Feb 14, 2009

If the Spirit is still necessary for people to be saved on the earth after the rapture.. then clearly, the Spirit has not been removed from the earth.

Rosinsky · Feb 14, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

I will give a more detailed response to your very good points tomorrow as I am getting tired and need to head to bed.

But for now, let's take a quick look in the Old Testament in the book of Genesis 6:3 to see that something like this had happened before.

Genesis 6:3 - And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

As humanity became corrupted, God said His spirit shall not remain in man any longer. Immediately after that, he ended this era (or that age period) through Noah and the flood, and he raised a new era after the Lord where His spirit began to work within mankind again but very differently.

As I said, I will post a more detailed response to your questions tomorrow.

God Bless!

NoahsDad · Feb 14, 2009

Rosinsky said:

Please disregard my previous post. After pasting it into Microsoft word and removing the scriptures I was able to get a sense of what you were trying to convey (at least I think I do).

What does this verse say to me? It says that Paul recognized two issues that he needed to clarify for the believers in the church of Thessalonica: (1) The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and (2)The gathering of the believers to Jesus Christ. This reveals that there were two events and Paul was about to provide clarity regarding them.

" Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him."

You cannot understand this verse without tying it with the coming verse. Only then do we see its context.

Verse 2-3 says: That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

Obviously, the believers were concerned that they had been left behind [and that they were in the tribulation period]. Knowing that the church was going through many trials and persecution, it's no wonder that they were concerned that they were already in the tribulation period specially since there were certain individuals were preaching that the day of the Lord had already came.

Paul in verse three makes a very clear statement. He combines the two events into one in saying that "day" shall not come... This goes to show that the day of the Lord is not a "day" in it's literal sence of 24 hours but rather a period of time consisting of at least two events.

It is important to note that Paul did not refute the implication of the notion that the day of christ had already came.an]. If the day of the Lord had already began and the Thessalonians were not gathered or raptured, then it meant that they were in the tribulation period.

I agree... here, Paul is stating that the day will not come until [the] Antichrist takes control.

That does not make much sense to me. So you don't believe in of the meaning of the word? That same word was used to "rapture" Phillip in Acts 8:39

You are missing one of the fundamental keys to this passage. Let's recap, first Paul had to clarify a misunderstand of the Day of the Lord. Paul said that that day will not come until the man of lawlessness is revealed. Now, we see that Paul is saying that this man of lawlessness is being restrained by a mysterious "he." Who is this he that is so powerful that he restrains the "great rebellion against God, the man of lawlessness who will bring destruction and "exalt himself and defy everything that people call god and every object of worship?" That's not all, but this man of lawlessness will also "sit in the temple of God, claiming that he himself is God."

Certainly not the the pagan Roman Emperors as per Gil Commentary (From Moho's post).

We know that this "HE" must be stepped out of the way so that the man of lawlessness might be revealed. This He can be no other than the Holy Spirit who is powerful enough to hold such evil. With the removal of the Holy Spirit which is here only because of the Church, He will only be removed because the church is no longer present.

This is consistent with Paul's message in approaching the Thessalonians' concerns.

think what you will................
Holla

NoahsDad · Feb 14, 2009

Oh by the way ro. Strive means to fight with NOT live with............even in the english sense of the word

zander · Feb 14, 2009

All i see is immaturity and the desire to be right. Most of you can go ahead and try to be right. I know what i believe and why i believe it. Slant as you may, twist as you may. justify as you may. I don't need to be right. Disrespecting one because you believe you are right and want to prove them wrong, is not the way to win people to truth. My guide is my relationship with God and the sensitivity it brings to his Spirit. Only through that Spirit can you discern the truth of God's word. So you that may blah blah blah go ahead and blah blah blah you are closed minded. In my humble opinion your motive is far from a righteous one it's a prideful one. So you go be right. I'm not casting my pearls amungst swine and i would encourage the few of you that have posted to any rapture threads that are respectful in your thoughts on this no matter how right you think you are to resist being drug into such immature comments. God bless Oh and btw i am going to give my opinion on the unnecessary and disruptful topic of the rapture in the forums to robo and other op's it's obvious people can't be mature in discussing things they don't agree with one another on, i do not believe it is Christ like to bash someone for their beliefs no matter how wrong we think they are and how right we think we are.

A bro in Christ

PS. It might have been a lil more sensitive to others to post it as "Is the Rapture a Theory?"

Not pointed twords you ND even though i personally wouldn't have started another one on this subject.

NoahsMom · Feb 14, 2009

Spoken like a true brother in christ...................

onwingsaseagles · Feb 14, 2009

Baptistrw said:

I don't care what they claim to be if they teach the pretrib rapture they are false teachers.

onwingsaseagles · Feb 14, 2009

The only reason anyone would hold on to the pretrib rapture after careful study is because they want to be lied to. Anyone who honestly wants the truth would come to a post trib conclusion, scripture is clear on the matter.

NoahsDad · Feb 14, 2009

I dont see a "clear " rapture at all in the texts..........the only thing I caqn see to back the fact that there could be a rapture or a safe way out of the tribulation is the story of noah.............and that was during the flood so that would lead one to conclude the Mid-Trib theory...........but as I said in my studies I dont see where God said Hes taking out anyone except the tares..........so I recon if you concider yourself a tare ...........you go ahead and be raptured..............

onwingsaseagles · Feb 14, 2009

NoahsDad said:

What about the translation of the living into their heavenly bodies at the resurrection of the just? That is what I call ''The rapture'' when doyou think that event occurs.

MahogonySnail · Feb 14, 2009

Yes it's not clear... but I think the analogy with wheat is that the wheat will be harvested and gathered... it's not left in the ground:

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

MahogonySnail · Feb 14, 2009

here's a website that explains the origins of the word "rapture", well it's not in the bible, but I guess it encapsulates an idea of what Christians believe will happen ..hmm interesting

http://www.bibleanswerstand.org/nuggets_12.htm

NoahsDad · Feb 14, 2009

Rev 20:1 And (1) I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key (2) of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
(1) Now follows the third part of the prophetic history, which is of the victory by which Christ overcame the dragon, as I noted in (Rev_7:1). This part must necessarily be joined with the end of the twelfth chapter and be applied to the correct understanding of it. This chapter has two parts, one of the dragon overcome, to (Rev_20:2-10): the other of the resurrection and last judgment to (Rev_20:11-15). The story of the dragon is twofold: First of the first victory, after which he was bound by Christ, to the sixth verse (Rev_20:1-6). The second is of the last victory, by which he has thrown down into everlasting punishment, there to the fifteenth verse (Rev_20:7-15). This first history happened in the first time of the Christian Church, when the dragon thrown down from heaven by Christ, went about to molest the new birth of the Church in the earth, (Rev_12:17, Rev_18:1). For which cause I gave warning, that this story of the dragon must be joined to that passage. (2) That is, of hell, where God threw the angels who had sinned, and bound them in chains of darkness to be kept till ****ation, (2Pe_2:4)
hmmmmm............the foot notes from the 1570 version of the holy bible make no mention of a rapture here........

NoahsDad · Feb 14, 2009

Rev 4:1 After (1) this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
(1) Hereafter follows the second part of this book, altogether prophetical foretelling those things which were to come, as was said in (Rev_1:19). This is divided into two histories: one common to the whole world, till Chapter 9 and another unique to the Church of God, till Chapter 22. These histories are said to be described in several books (Rev_5:1, Rev_10:2). Now this verse is a passage from the former part to this second: where it is said, that heaven was opened, that is, that heavenly things were unlocked and that a trumpet sounded in heaven, to stir up the apostle, and call him to the understanding of things to come. The first history has two parts: one the causes of things done and of this whole revelation in this next chapter, another of the acts done in the next four chapters. The principal causes according to the economy or dispensation of it, are two: One the beginning, which none can approach, that is, God the Father, of whom is spoken in this chapter. The other, the Son, who is the secondary cause, easy to be approached, in that he is God and man in one person; (Rev_5:5-9).
WOW in 1570 they thaught Jesus was God and man in 1 person too..........hmmmmm still no rapture..........

zander · Feb 14, 2009

Like i said before, don't let yourselves be drug into disrespectful, immature, closed minded, prideful, convo. zan is done with this thread. casting pearls amungst swine that think they are Bible experts. How's that for a conclusion

NoahsDad · Feb 15, 2009

onwingsaseagles said:

well see Im unfortunatly "simple minded" meaning that I have to read something about 100 times in different contexts before I can understand it.
One thing that I've noticed tho ,Is that Paul taught as much from the Old Testiment to the gentiles as Jesus did to the children of Israel.
So when I read something that Paul calls a mystery, I look it up in the OT
Just like in the verses that seem to point to the changing of our bodies into spiritual bodies.
so heres what I've found so far

Heres the verse I'm thinking that you are referring to (hope i'm right)
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

HERE is the OT reference I found

Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
OK Heres the reference I found for the 2nd part of the text.....(grave where is thy victory .....etc
Isa 25:7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
Isa 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
Isa 25:9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.
Isa 25:10 For in this mountain shall the hand of the LORD rest, and Moab shall be trodden down under him, even as straw is trodden down for the dunghill.
Isa 25:11 And he shall spread forth his hands in the midst of them, as he that swimmeth spreadeth forth his hands to swim: and he shall bring down their pride together with the spoils of their hands.
Isa 25:12 And the fortress of the high fort of thy walls shall he bring down, lay low, and bring to the ground, even to the dust.
Now look at the First verse of this reference ..............it mentions something about a veil ..............Lets see if Paul mentions that.
2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Tere it is!!!!!But in this context He's talking more about the heart than a physical changing all together.....Im going to keep looking to see if it ties into the second coming.Or as I think the mellinium.....Dont get me wrong here, I by NO stretch of the imagination, think or believe, that the millenium is now or that we aint gunna be changed ....Im saying that I just aint found all the refferences yet.

NoahsDad · Feb 15, 2009

Tere it is!!!!!But in this context He's talking more about the heart than a physical changing all together.....Im going to keep looking to see if it ties into the second coming.Or as I think the mellinium.....Dont get me wrong here, I by NO stretch of the imagination, think or believe, that the millenium is now or that we aint gunna be changed ....Im saying that I just aint found all the refferences yet.

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
OK heres Jesus in the OT and
But wait the rest of this dont mention any taking away ......look
Dan 7:15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.
Dan 7:16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
Dan 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
matter of fact the interpretation sais that the Saints take the kingdom for ever and ever
OK heres the anti-Christ in the same chapter
Dan 7:19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
Dan 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
SEE? There it is refferenced to revelation......Now Im on the right track.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
Nope still no takin out ..........Dont see it.......Maybe you could help me find it?

onwingsaseagles · Feb 15, 2009

Well Noah it seems we agree that there is a resurrection of the just, at which time we that are alive will also be changed, and we agree it will not be befre the tribulation, but here is a passage that tell us it is after the Tribulation and before the Millennium.
Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

NoahsDad · Feb 15, 2009

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Ok this isn't the mellinium?
and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
or is it?

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