The 24 elders.

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Yet

Yet

Banned
#1
Jan 4, 2014
3,756
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#1
Rev. 1:5-6 ......loved us, and washed us from our sins...hath made us kings and priests unto our God....

Rev. 5:8-9 ...four and twenty elders ....sing a new song......and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people and nation...and has made us kings and priests ...

Then the seals are opened.

The 24 elders are clearly the 'church' (ekklesia).

This is more than enough to convince this old horse of a pre-trib rapture.
 
F

flob

Guest
#2
#2
lol, I know, I've heard that.
To me they're clearly angels,
not the church
 
Yet

Yet

Banned
#3
Jan 4, 2014
3,756
69
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#3
flob said:
lol, I know, I've heard that.
To me they're clearly angels,
not the church
Click to expand...
were angels redeemed out of every nation by the blood of the Lamb?
 
J

Joshua_Generation

Banned
#4
Mar 10, 2015
1,174
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#4
flob said:
lol, I know, I've heard that.
To me they're clearly angels,
not the church
Click to expand...
Angels do not wear crows anywhere in the Bible.
The term Elder is always referred to in the Bible as man, not Angel.
 
J

Joshua_Generation

Banned
#5
Mar 10, 2015
1,174
18
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#5
Yet said:
Rev. 1:5-6 ......loved us, and washed us from our sins...hath made us kings and priests unto our God....

Rev. 5:8-9 ...four and twenty elders ....sing a new song......and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people and nation...and has made us kings and priests ...

Then the seals are opened.

The 24 elders are clearly the 'church' (ekklesia).

This is more than enough to convince this old horse of a pre-trib rapture.
Click to expand...
You might want to look at 1 Chronicles 24.
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
#6
#6
Yet said:
Rev. 1:5-6 ......loved us, and washed us from our sins...hath made us kings and priests unto our God....

Rev. 5:8-9 ...four and twenty elders ....sing a new song......and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people and nation...and has made us kings and priests ...

Then the seals are opened.

The 24 elders are clearly the 'church' (ekklesia).

This is more than enough to convince this old horse of a pre-trib rapture.
Click to expand...

Truly a very "nose on your face" matter in Revelation 5 scripture that post-tribbers have to relegate to, "Don't believe your lying eyes." Then ensues paragraphs of man's denials and imaginings, to try and morph clear scripture into something else. (As if our first mistake is to believe the Bible says what it says. Go figure...)
 
V

valiant

Senior Member
#9
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
126
63
#9
Yet said:
Rev. 1:5-6 ......loved us, and washed us from our sins...hath made us kings and priests unto our God....

Rev. 5:8-9 ...four and twenty elders ....sing a new song......and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people and nation...and has made us kings and priests ...

Then the seals are opened.

The 24 elders are clearly the 'church' (ekklesia).

This is more than enough to convince this old horse of a pre-trib rapture.
Click to expand...
You are quoting from the Bible as written by the later defective church. In the earliest manuscripts it says 'you have redeemed THEM'. The elders are angels who represent the church before God.
 
Yet

Yet

Banned
#10
Jan 4, 2014
3,756
69
0
#10
I'd like to see those earlier manuscripts. Where do I go? Thanks. That's right, I'm teachable! Smile!
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
#11
#11
valiant said:
You are quoting from the Bible as written by the later defective church. In the earliest manuscripts it says 'you have redeemed THEM'. The elders are angels who represent the church before God.
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Uh huh. Last resort, change the Bible that disagrees with you. Works for the Jehovah's Witnesses. And though there are majority texts, a many, old is better? I suppose if an older fragment of some sort stated the Lord Jesus was an itinerant camel salesman, we'd have to change a lot in the Bible, for an also-ran document, despite the majority of other texts, over 1,500 years, saying something quite different. Lastly, the Lord was thwarted, failed to oversee the proper translation of His word, can create the universe, but is completely inept to write a book? Makes sense to me! I think you guys should just get together and write your own scripture, get rid of all the pesky truths that contradict your private interpretations and doctrines.
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#12
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
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#12
Yet said:
I'd like to see those earlier manuscripts. Where do I go? Thanks. That's right, I'm teachable! Smile!
Click to expand...
If you can read greek they are available online.
 
Chica

Chica

Banned
#13
Mar 12, 2015
629
9
0
#13
valiant said:
You are quoting from the Bible as written by the later defective church. In the earliest manuscripts it says 'you have redeemed THEM'. The elders are angels who represent the church before God.
Click to expand...
Please supply a list of the "earliest manuscripts". Thanks
 
Chica

Chica

Banned
#14
Mar 12, 2015
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#14
Scripture clearly states:

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

For when they shall say peace and safety; then shall sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 1Thess. 5:2,3

(v.9) For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. 1Thess.5:9

Since wrath is the tribulation occuring at the beginning of the day of the Lord, the saints of the church will be saved form it at the parousia.
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#15
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
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#15
Chica said:
Please supply a list of the "earliest manuscripts". Thanks
Click to expand...
Here is a sample of Papyrus 66 written circa 200 AD showing the account of the woman caught in adultery was missing.

papy66big.jpg

Are you sure you want a list? Can you read even this?
 
Chica

Chica

Banned
#16
Mar 12, 2015
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#16
crossnote said:
Here is a sample of Papyrus 66 written circa 200 AD showing the account of the woman caught in adultery was missing.

View attachment 121926

Are you sure you want a list? Can you read even this?
Click to expand...
Can you read it? If not then you would just have to trust someone that it says what it says. Right?
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#17
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
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#17
Chica said:
Can you read it? If not then you would just have to trust someone that it says what it says. Right?
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That's the case with all translations and lexicons, you have to trust what you are told each word means. I can read some of it but what does that prove? Manuscript scholars have debated for years which fragments and early manuscripts should be included and there are good men on both sides.
The outcome makes only minor differences in the text, where instead, close examination of the context usually is the best approach.
 
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InSpiritInTruth

InSpiritInTruth

Banned
#18
Jan 7, 2015
6,057
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#18
Here is something interesting the Lord showed me years ago with the number 24 in the book of Numbers chapter 31.

The Lord told Moses in Numbers 31:1-5"And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the Lord of Midian.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Of every tribe a thousand, throughout all the tribes of Israel, shall ye send to the war.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]So there were delivered out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand of every tribe, twelve thousand armed for war."

And then the Lord said here after the war...

Numbers 31:28
"And levy a tribute unto the Lord of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep:"

If you divide 12,000 by 500=24

There's a lot of cool stuff in Numbers. :)
 
Chica

Chica

Banned
#19
Mar 12, 2015
629
9
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#19
crossnote said:
That's the case with all translations and lexicons, you have to trust what you are told each word means. I can read some of it but what does that prove? Manuscript scholars have debated for years which fragments and early manuscripts should be included and there are good men on both sides.
The outcome makes only minor differences in the text, where instead, close examination of the context usually is the best approach.
Click to expand...
So for Valiant to say:

valiant said:
You are quoting from the Bible as written by the later defective church. In the earliest manuscripts it says 'you have redeemed THEM'. The elders are angels who represent the church before God.
Click to expand...
Probably doesn't carry a lot of weight, and this coming from a person that skipped out on a dicussion on Daniel 9:25-27.
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#20
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
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#20
Chica said:
So for Valiant to say:



Probably doesn't carry a lot of weight, and this coming from a person that skipped out on a dicussion on Daniel 9:25-27.
Click to expand...
I would agree. One side has the 'oldest' and the other side has the 'majority' of manuscripts. Both schools have their reasons why their case is the best. I only shrug, but it is a tactic some use to try and win a point :)
 
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