The 24 elders.

[flob]

I don't see 24 elders in chapter 1.
The earliest mention I see of rapture is in 3:10 (pre-trib).
And then the indication of it in 7:9-17.
And not again until 2 are resurrected then taken up in 11:11-12 (end-trib)
and the stronger part of God's people are taken up in 12:5 (pre).

The reason I find that the 24 elders are angels and not men is because the church does not have
24 elders. Nor has any rapture taken place by 5:9-10. In fact, I understand that 4--6:8 is pretty much
John's view beginning from the Lord's taking-up. His ascension.
I have a friend who feels that 'Come up here' to John in 4:1-2 is a symbol of the first rapture.
But I disagree as that's unnecessary and not the 'plain' way Revelation is written

 

[Chica]

The 24 elders are mentioned five times in the Book of Revelation as follows: 4:4, 10; 5:8; 11:16; and 19:4.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

John MacArthur makes a strong case that the 24 elders represent a completed body of redeemed humanity, which at this point in future history could only be the church.

First, the reference to the twenty-four thrones on which the twenty-four elders sat indicates that they reign with Christ. Nowhere in Scripture do angels sit on thrones, nor are they pictured ruling or reigning. Their role is to serve as "ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation" (Heb. 1:14; cf. Matt. 18:10). The church, on the other hand, is repeatedly promised a co-regency with Christ (2:26–27; 3:21; 5:10; 20:4; Matt. 19:28; Luke 22:30; 1 Cor. 6:2–3; 2 Tim. 2:12).

Presbuteroi (elders) is never used in Scripture to refer to angels, but always to men. It is used to speak of older men in general, and the rulers of both Israel and the church. There is no indisputable use of presbuteroi outside of Revelation to refer to angels. (Some believe that "elders" in Isaiah 24:23 refers to angels, but it could as well refer to humans.) Further, "elder" would be an inappropriate term to describe angels, who do not age.

While angels do appear in white (e.g., John 20:12; Acts 1:10), white garments more commonly are the dress of believers. That is particularly true in the immediate context of Revelation. Christ promised the believers at Sardis that they would "be clothed in white garments" (3:5). He advised the apostate Laodiceans to "buy from Me ... white garments so that you may clothe yourself" (3:18). At the marriage supper of the Lamb, His bride will "clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean" (19:8). White garments symbolize Christ’s righteousness imputed to believers at salvation.

That the elders wore golden crowns on their heads provides further evidence that they were humans. Crowns are never promised in Scripture to angels, nor are angels ever seen wearing them. Stephanos (crown) is the victor's crown, worn by those who successfully endured the trial, those who competed and won the victory. Christ promised such a crown to the loyal believers at Smyrna: "Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life" (2:10). "Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things," wrote Paul. "They then do it to receive a perishable wreath [stephanos], but we an imperishable" (1 Cor. 9:25). He wrote of that imperishable crown again in 2 Timothy 4:8: "In the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing." James wrote of "the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him" (James 1:12), and Peter of "the unfading crown of glory" (1 Pet. 5:4). Holy angels do not personally struggle with and triumph over sin; thus, the overcomer's crown, the crown of those who successfully ran the race and finished victorious, would not be appropriate for them.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It is clear to me that the 24 elders must be a reference to humans, not angels. The angels are represented in verse six by the four living creatures. The throne-room scene of chapter four depicts God on His throne and representatives of His domain, which is all of creation, are depicted there. The church is present also represented

 

[flob]

John MacArthur's weak case fails to guess who they are.

 

[jb]

Who are the Elders? Rev 4v4,10, 5v5-8,14, 19v4, 7v11,13, 11v16, 14v3

Some have said that the elders are the raptured Church, or a company of Christians in Heaven. The Authorised Version of Rev 5v9,10, makes the elders Christians, however, several versions follow the Greek texts which put “men” for “us,” “them” for “us,” and “they” for “we.” The alternative reading makes it clear that the elders are singing a song about another group of people and not a song about themselves. The matter cannot finally be settled by an appeal to the Greek text, both versions have good authority, one has to study the relevant Scriptures to decide which is correct. That the elders are singing a song about another group of people is clearly seen from the following facts:

a) There are only 24 elders and the raptured Church does not consist of only 24 Christians

This number 24 is no more symbolical than the number of the living creatures, or the number of angels. Rev 5v11. God does not use a symbolic number, when he tells of the number of Christians who go through the great tribulation, He says that they are “a great multitude which no man could number.” Rev 7v9-14.

b) The song is sung by the living creatures as well as the elders and they are certainly not raptured saints

c) In Rev 7v9-11, 11v16-18, 19v4,7, 14v3, a clear distinction is made between the elders and Christians

Notice how the elders are not able to sing the new song of the Christians of Rev 14v1-3.

d) The Church is praying and suffering on earth right until the coming of Christ after the great tribulation

See Rev 6v9-11, 8v3,4, 12v17, 13v7, 14v13, 17v6. The great tribulation ends when the seventh trumpet sounds and the dead are resurrected, this is years later than the first seal. 1Thess 4v16,17, 1Cor 15v51-53, Rev 11v15-18. In Matt 24v31, the elect which are gathered are not Jews, for Isaiah 66v19,20, informs us that the Jews are brought back to Israel by the Gentiles as an offering to the Lord. Isaiah 14v2, 45v19,20. Christians are being martyred on earth until the end of the great tribulation and do not sit on thrones until the Millennium begins, which is about seven years later than Rev 4 and 5. The Christian dead, whether they be martyred or otherwise, are resting, not reigning, until the Millennium starts. Rev 6v9-11, 14v12,13, 20v4-6, 6v9-11.

e) These elders are undoubtedly the angels that share in the government of Heaven

The word “seats” should be translated “thrones,” and Col 1v16 speaks of the thrones that are in the invisible world, the thrones of great angels that rule the heavenly world. These angelic elders have white robes and crowns of gold, and they have proved their right to them, for they remained true to God and righteousness, and resisted the rebellion that Satan started in Heaven. They overcame Satan's lies in Heaven even as we have to overcome them on earth.

Yahweh Shalom

 

[crossnote]

John MacArthur's weak case fails to guess who they are.

Write out an equivalent summary as MacArthur did and we'll send both through the CC grinder.

 

[crossnote]

The 24 elders are mentioned five times in the Book of Revelation as follows: 4:4, 10; 5:8; 11:16; and 19:4.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

John MacArthur makes a strong case that the 24 elders represent a completed body of redeemed humanity, which at this point in future history could only be the church.

First, the reference to the twenty-four thrones on which the twenty-four elders sat indicates that they reign with Christ. Nowhere in Scripture do angels sit on thrones, nor are they pictured ruling or reigning. Their role is to serve as "ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation" (Heb. 1:14; cf. Matt. 18:10). The church, on the other hand, is repeatedly promised a co-regency with Christ (2:26–27; 3:21; 5:10; 20:4; Matt. 19:28; Luke 22:30; 1 Cor. 6:2–3; 2 Tim. 2:12).

Presbuteroi (elders) is never used in Scripture to refer to angels, but always to men. It is used to speak of older men in general, and the rulers of both Israel and the church. There is no indisputable use of presbuteroi outside of Revelation to refer to angels. (Some believe that "elders" in Isaiah 24:23 refers to angels, but it could as well refer to humans.) Further, "elder" would be an inappropriate term to describe angels, who do not age.

While angels do appear in white (e.g., John 20:12; Acts 1:10), white garments more commonly are the dress of believers. That is particularly true in the immediate context of Revelation. Christ promised the believers at Sardis that they would "be clothed in white garments" (3:5). He advised the apostate Laodiceans to "buy from Me ... white garments so that you may clothe yourself" (3:18). At the marriage supper of the Lamb, His bride will "clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean" (19:8). White garments symbolize Christ’s righteousness imputed to believers at salvation.

That the elders wore golden crowns on their heads provides further evidence that they were humans. Crowns are never promised in Scripture to angels, nor are angels ever seen wearing them. Stephanos (crown) is the victor's crown, worn by those who successfully endured the trial, those who competed and won the victory. Christ promised such a crown to the loyal believers at Smyrna: "Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life" (2:10). "Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things," wrote Paul. "They then do it to receive a perishable wreath [stephanos], but we an imperishable" (1 Cor. 9:25). He wrote of that imperishable crown again in 2 Timothy 4:8: "In the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing." James wrote of "the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him" (James 1:12), and Peter of "the unfading crown of glory" (1 Pet. 5:4). Holy angels do not personally struggle with and triumph over sin; thus, the overcomer's crown, the crown of those who successfully ran the race and finished victorious, would not be appropriate for them.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It is clear to me that the 24 elders must be a reference to humans, not angels. The angels are represented in verse six by the four living creatures. The throne-room scene of chapter four depicts God on His throne and representatives of His domain, which is all of creation, are depicted there. The church is present also represented

you are suppose to cite your source...

The Book Of Revelation

 

[flob]

Write out an equivalent summary as MacArthur did and we'll send both through the CC grinder.

Lol. I have. When this particular (comparative) trivia came up in the 'When's the rapture?' thread or somewhere else.
MacArthur did some of the work for me.
For example he points that angels as well as believers or overcomers are in white.
While believers may wear literal white someday, MacArthur fails to discern that white garments in 2--3, just like a white stone,
should symbolize something. Whereas the angels seen on earth like at the Lord's resurrection were wearing literal white.

MacArthur also is incorrect that angels don't rule. They are the principalities and powers mentioned in Ephesians and Daniel, whether the fallen ones or not. In fact Lucifer before his fall was portrayed in Isa 14 and Ezek 28 as occupying a high position in the universe of God's creation before man. So too now.............they are waiting to be replaced by man. Per 1 Corinthians 6. Yes, they're servants also. As MacArthur, once, accurately points out, the church is Promised to co-reign with Christ. Meaning, we do not, physically, now. (Instead, His kingdom is not of this world.)
Contrary to MacArthur's hypothesis, Isa 24:3 does appear to angelic elders. Since angels, as well as saints, accompany Him on His return. I agree with MacArthur that 'elder' angels is hard to grasp, since they don't age, and it's sort of hard imagining one wiser than another. And yet Lucifer did have a higher position.........as well as being described as superior, wiser, to the other angels, until pride came up in him.
MacArthur also uses odd terminology, as if he's inventing his disagree-ers' argument, then tearing it down, as if he himself were not the one who invented it. He says that angels aren't promised crowns. That's not the argument. The argument is, that as rulers within God's hierarchy of angels, they already Have crowns. Likewise his unsubborned (sp) argument that angels don't struggle against sin... Who said they do?
But all this is on the negative, or 'not,' side. I just wanted to grant MacArthur his opinion, and ask him to carry it out more intelligently on the affirmative side: Who Are the 24 elders of the church universal?
Even the concept strikes me as grotesque and Catholicesque. As if the universal church would, should, or does have a human hierarchy. Who............pray tell..............are these '24 human representatives of the church'? Billy Graham, like someone said, lol? No disrespect to him. I hope he would reject any kind of popery too. And if they're unidentifiable........then what precisely is the point? The church in the heavens and in rapture doesn't need any false symbols. It is 'plain' enough in the examples given, Rv 3; 7; 12; 14; 17; 19

 

[crossnote]

Lol. I have. When this particular (comparative) trivia came up in the 'When's the rapture?' thread or somewhere else.
MacArthur did some of the work for me.
For example he points that angels as well as believers or overcomers are in white.
While believers may wear literal white someday, MacArthur fails to discern that white garments in 2--3, just like a white stone,
should symbolize something. Whereas the angels seen on earth like at the Lord's resurrection were wearing literal white.

MacArthur also is incorrect that angels don't rule. They are the principalities and powers mentioned in Ephesians and Daniel, whether the fallen ones or not. In fact Lucifer before his fall was portrayed in Isa 14 and Ezek 28 as occupying a high position in the universe of God's creation before man. So too now.............they are waiting to be replaced by man. Per 1 Corinthians 6. Yes, they're servants also. As MacArthur, once, accurately points out, the church is Promised to co-reign with Christ. Meaning, we do not, physically, now. (Instead, His kingdom is not of this world.)
Contrary to MacArthur's hypothesis, Isa 24:3 does appear to angelic elders. Since angels, as well as saints, accompany Him on His return. I agree with MacArthur that 'elder' angels is hard to grasp, since they don't age, and it's sort of hard imagining one wiser than another. And yet Lucifer did have a higher position.........as well as being described as superior, wiser, to the other angels, until pride came up in him.
MacArthur also uses odd terminology, as if he's inventing his disagree-ers' argument, then tearing it down, as if he himself were not the one who invented it. He says that angels aren't promised crowns. That's not the argument. The argument is, that as rulers within God's hierarchy of angels, they already Have crowns. Likewise his unsubborned (sp) argument that angels don't struggle against sin... Who said they do?
But all this is on the negative, or 'not,' side. I just wanted to grant MacArthur his opinion, and ask him to carry it out more intelligently on the affirmative side: Who Are the 24 elders of the church universal?
Even the concept strikes me as grotesque and Catholicesque. As if the universal church would, should, or does have a human hierarchy. Who............pray tell..............are these '24 human representatives of the church'? Billy Graham, like someone said, lol? No disrespect to him. I hope he would reject any kind of popery too. And if they're unidentifiable........then what precisely is the point? The church in the heavens and in rapture doesn't need any false symbols. It is 'plain' enough in the examples given, Rv 3; 7; 12; 14; 17; 19

Sorry, that won't due. Setting up another's straw and then knocking them down.
Can you write your own summary of straw without doing a running critique of another?

 

[crossnote]

John MacArthur's weak case fails to guess who they are.

This simply is not true. You may judge his case as weak but he does state who he believes they are in his study bible...

"Here elders represent the church, which sings the song of redemption (5:8–10). Rev 4:4 "