O
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R
I have to pause and response to these accusations.
Most post-tribulationists have stopped using this argument because it has been found to be false.The accurate year of fall between 3 to 7 AD, Not 370 AD. In his sermon titled"On the Last Times, The Antichrist, and the End of the World, or Sermon on the End of the World," we find a very similar concept of the rapture of the church that is consistent with the pre-tribulational view. Regarding the rapture of the church, he says this:
We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging... Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourseles for the meeting of the Lord Jesus Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world?... For all the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.
That's not all... later on around 1260 AD, in the treatise called "The history of Brother Dolcino," we find this paragraph about Brother Dolcino's belief.
Again, [Dolcino believed and preached and taught] that within those three years Ddolcino himself and his followers will preach the coming of the Antichrist. And that the Antichrist was coming into this world within the bounds of the said three and a half years; and after he had come, then he[dolcino] and his followers would be transferred dinto paradise, in which are Enock and Elijah, And in this way they will be preserved unharmed from the persecution of Antichrist. And that then Enoch and Elijah themselves would descend on the earth for the purpose of preaching [against] Antichrist. Then they would be killed by him or by his servants, and thus Antichrist would reighn for a long time. But when the Antichrist is dead, Dolcino himself, who then would be the holy pope, and his preserved followers will descend on the earth, and will preach the right faith of CHrist to all, and will convert those who will be living then to the true faith of Jesus Christ..
These two quotes are not the only ones, there are ample evidences that show that the rapture of the church before the tribulation is not a recent "invention" like some post-tribulationist would like to believe in an effort to discredit the post tribulational view.
The Post-tribulational view require picking and chossing scriptures while denying others and dismissing some fundamental teachings of Jesus Christ. Not only that, this view leave many unanswered questions (I will raise those questions as we continue to discuss this topic).
On the contrary, the Pre-tribulational view is the most scriptural, logical, and consistent view of all. It puts God's promises and Jesus' fundamental teachings into perspectives.
Most post-tribulationists have stopped using this argument because it has been found to be false.The accurate year of fall between 3 to 7 AD, Not 370 AD. In his sermon titled"On the Last Times, The Antichrist, and the End of the World, or Sermon on the End of the World," we find a very similar concept of the rapture of the church that is consistent with the pre-tribulational view. Regarding the rapture of the church, he says this:
We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging... Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourseles for the meeting of the Lord Jesus Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world?... For all the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.
That's not all... later on around 1260 AD, in the treatise called "The history of Brother Dolcino," we find this paragraph about Brother Dolcino's belief.
Again, [Dolcino believed and preached and taught] that within those three years Ddolcino himself and his followers will preach the coming of the Antichrist. And that the Antichrist was coming into this world within the bounds of the said three and a half years; and after he had come, then he[dolcino] and his followers would be transferred dinto paradise, in which are Enock and Elijah, And in this way they will be preserved unharmed from the persecution of Antichrist. And that then Enoch and Elijah themselves would descend on the earth for the purpose of preaching [against] Antichrist. Then they would be killed by him or by his servants, and thus Antichrist would reighn for a long time. But when the Antichrist is dead, Dolcino himself, who then would be the holy pope, and his preserved followers will descend on the earth, and will preach the right faith of CHrist to all, and will convert those who will be living then to the true faith of Jesus Christ..
These two quotes are not the only ones, there are ample evidences that show that the rapture of the church before the tribulation is not a recent "invention" like some post-tribulationist would like to believe in an effort to discredit the post tribulational view.
The Post-tribulational view require picking and chossing scriptures while denying others and dismissing some fundamental teachings of Jesus Christ. Not only that, this view leave many unanswered questions (I will raise those questions as we continue to discuss this topic).
On the contrary, the Pre-tribulational view is the most scriptural, logical, and consistent view of all. It puts God's promises and Jesus' fundamental teachings into perspectives.
R
I don't not mind disagreement. However, I do mind statements without backing them up. I post a very long detailed explanation of what the bible says. I would expect that you at least try to put up an argument against it if you indeed disagree.
This is what I need you to do, take me out of the picture and respond to the points that I have made. Provide your arguments, either logical or biblical, for your conclusion. Only within these grounds can we have a healthy debate. If you continue to act this will, I will simply withdraw from this discussion. Not because your view is accurate, but simply because it is impossible to have a healthy discussion with you.
This is what I need you to do, take me out of the picture and respond to the points that I have made. Provide your arguments, either logical or biblical, for your conclusion. Only within these grounds can we have a healthy debate. If you continue to act this will, I will simply withdraw from this discussion. Not because your view is accurate, but simply because it is impossible to have a healthy discussion with you.
R
That's fine... now you've made a statement. Now provide arguments that prove this statement.
To disprove something is to provide logical arguments that support your statement (conclusion). You have yet to do so. So you have not disproved anything. You cannot submit an article that shows a conclusion without showing how you arrive to that conclusion.
Given the time it took you to respond to the threat shows that you did not made any effort to read into it, research, and respond accurately.
To disprove something is to provide logical arguments that support your statement (conclusion). You have yet to do so. So you have not disproved anything. You cannot submit an article that shows a conclusion without showing how you arrive to that conclusion.
Given the time it took you to respond to the threat shows that you did not made any effort to read into it, research, and respond accurately.
O
Revelation 7: 9-14
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
So here are the questions
#1 Who are these people?
#2 How, where, when, and why did they receive their white robes?
#3 How did they come out of the great Tribulation? (rapture or martyrdom)
Here is the answer to all those questions.
Revelation 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Answers
#1 Who are these people? Martyrs
#2How, when, where, and why did they receive white robes? How? through martyrdom, Where? In heaven, When ? When they got to heaven, Why? Because they gave their lives for Christ.
#3 How did they come out of great tribulation? By being beheaded for the word of God, and the testimony they held
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
So here are the questions
#1 Who are these people?
#2 How, where, when, and why did they receive their white robes?
#3 How did they come out of the great Tribulation? (rapture or martyrdom)
Here is the answer to all those questions.
Revelation 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Answers
#1 Who are these people? Martyrs
#2How, when, where, and why did they receive white robes? How? through martyrdom, Where? In heaven, When ? When they got to heaven, Why? Because they gave their lives for Christ.
#3 How did they come out of great tribulation? By being beheaded for the word of God, and the testimony they held
Where is this "ample evidence" ? Can you quote early church fathers like Ireneus , Justin Martyr, etc that show they believed in the pre-trib rapture?
Because according to quotes (posted below), they believed in post-trib:
What is this "year of fall" ? 3 to 7 AD ?
It is consistent only in hindsight (i.e. pre-tribbers looking back in the past to find something that resembles their belief). Because here it explains how the writings of Ephraem are taken out of context by pre-tribbers, and I have to agree.. it isn't a very solid argument for a whisking away of the Church
And here are some quotes from some more familiar early church writings:
And how do you explain that the majority of great bible people were post-tribbers ? I posted the list above. This must show that a pre-trib view is not as obvious in scripture as you pretend it to be.
Because according to quotes (posted below), they believed in post-trib:
What is this "year of fall" ? 3 to 7 AD ?
It is consistent only in hindsight (i.e. pre-tribbers looking back in the past to find something that resembles their belief). Because here it explains how the writings of Ephraem are taken out of context by pre-tribbers, and I have to agree.. it isn't a very solid argument for a whisking away of the Church
And here are some quotes from some more familiar early church writings:
And how do you explain that the majority of great bible people were post-tribbers ? I posted the list above. This must show that a pre-trib view is not as obvious in scripture as you pretend it to be.
O
There is no question that Rosinsky has not only been indoctrinated into the pretrib belief, but who ever taught him this false doctrine has done a very good job of manipulating his mind. Personally I think it is sad that people would do such things to other people. Ezekiel speaks of it in Ezekiel 13
Ezekiel 13:1-9
1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of he LORD;
3 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!
4 O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts.
5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.
6 They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.
7 Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken?
8 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord GOD.
9 And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD
The teachers of this false hope will pay a heavier price than the believers, although both will pay a price, and the sad thing is sometimes the student becomes the teacher unaware of the damge they are doing. I believe this is the case in reference to our deceived freind Rosinsky.
Ezekiel 13:1-9
1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of he LORD;
3 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!
4 O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts.
5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.
6 They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.
7 Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken?
8 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord GOD.
9 And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD
The teachers of this false hope will pay a heavier price than the believers, although both will pay a price, and the sad thing is sometimes the student becomes the teacher unaware of the damge they are doing. I believe this is the case in reference to our deceived freind Rosinsky.
Okay, question for the post-tribbers (and again, I'm not trying to challenge you or argue...I'm just trying to better understand this view). Revelation 3:10 makes it sound as though we'll be protected through the tribulation, yet other verses in Revelation indicate that anyone who does not take the mark of the beast will be killed. I don't really understand how both of those statements could be true. How can we be kept safe from harm and yet still be killed? And for that matter.........if most Christians are martyred during the tribulation, wouldn't that mean that there wouldn't be anyone (or hardly anyone) left to be raptured at the second coming?
O
First of all I answer this once before remember I told you to read Revelation 12, I will tomorrow start a thread on that to explain it furth. However you are right by the end of the tribulation there will be very few Christians left to rapture you see the rapture is not the big awesome event that it is made out to be by the pretribbers. If you read 1st Thess 4:13-18 close (which I will post for you) The rapture is a very small point. The real point Paul is making is that the dead will be raised. Our dead loveones that have gone on before us are with God now and will be returning with Him to be resurrected. That is what the blessed hope is the resurrection of the dead in Christ not the catching away of the living, that is just a side issue. Pretribber have distorted it, to be something it is not.
1st Thess 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
You see if you read verse 13 and 14 you will want Paul is telling us to comfort ourselves with in verse 18, and in verse 15 Paul tells us when this will occur ''AT the Coming Of the Lord'' (which is at the end of the Tribulation not before it) then verses 16 and 17 tell us exactly what is going to happen and in what order. This whole passage is really about the resurrection of the just not the rapture, that catching away of those that are alive and remain or have survived, is a side note at best.
1st Thess 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
You see if you read verse 13 and 14 you will want Paul is telling us to comfort ourselves with in verse 18, and in verse 15 Paul tells us when this will occur ''AT the Coming Of the Lord'' (which is at the end of the Tribulation not before it) then verses 16 and 17 tell us exactly what is going to happen and in what order. This whole passage is really about the resurrection of the just not the rapture, that catching away of those that are alive and remain or have survived, is a side note at best.
R
Those scriptures do not, and I repeat, do not say that the resurrection of the just (according to you) is at the second coming. I have already outlined to you the differences between 1 Thessalonians 4 and Matthew 24 that makes it impossible for that to be true. You've retained that these two events (the rapture and the second coming) will happen immediately after each other. Given the huge amount of discrepancies between the two, this again is impossible.
Here is a list of some of the discrepancies:
Rapture
Second Coming
The rapture happens in the twinkling of an eye; so sudden that it's too fast for the eye 1 Cor 15:52
The second coming comes slowly and people will see Him come back. Zechariah 12:10 Matt 24:30, Rev 1:7
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Jesus remained in the air 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
Jesus' feet touches the earth Zechariah 14:4, Revelation 19:11-21
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Christians goes up first and unbelievers are left behind. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
Wicked are taken first, the righteous (Tribulation saints) are left behind. Matthew 13:28-30
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The rapture's purpose is to present the Church to Himself and to the Father 2 Corinthians 11:2, Revelation. 19:6-9
The purpose of the second coming is to execute judgment on the wicked and establish His Kingdom Jude 14-15,Revelation 19:11-21, Zechariah 14:3-4
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Jesus will come FOR His Church. John 14:1-3, 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
Jesus coming WITH His Church Col 3:4, Zechariah 14:5, Jude 14, Revelation 19:14
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Only Christians will see Him 1 John 3:2, 1 Cor 15:52
Every eye will see Him Revelation 1:7
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Jesus comes with a shout(for resurrection) 1 Thessalonians 4:16
No shout mentioned Rev. 19:11-21
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A resurrection takes place 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Cor 15:51-54
No resurrection mentioned Revelation 1:7, 19:11-21, Zechariah 12:10, 14:4-5
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Can happen at any time given Revelation 3:3, 1 Thessalonians 5:4-6
Happens at end of 7 years of Tribulation Dan 9:24-27Matt 24:29-30, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-8
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No angels are sent to gather (resurrected people don't need angels to help them) 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
Angels sent forth to gather people together for judgment Matthew 13:39, 41, 49, 24:31, 25:31, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
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Spirits of those dead in Christ return with Jesus to receive their their resurrected bodies (1 Thessalonians 4:14-16)
Christians return with Jesus in already resurrected bodies riding on white horses. Revelation 19:11-21
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Jesus does not return on a white horse (1 Thessalonians 4:14-16)
Jesus returns on a white horse Revelation 19:11
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The dead in Christ only (those in Christ) 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
For obedient Israel & Gentiles Romans 11:25-27, Matthew 25:31-46
After carefully examining these discrepancies, you will see that there has to be two events at two very distinct time. Anything other than that would be total contradiction.
Here is a list of some of the discrepancies:
Rapture
Second Coming
The rapture happens in the twinkling of an eye; so sudden that it's too fast for the eye 1 Cor 15:52
The second coming comes slowly and people will see Him come back. Zechariah 12:10 Matt 24:30, Rev 1:7
------------------------------------
Jesus remained in the air 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
Jesus' feet touches the earth Zechariah 14:4, Revelation 19:11-21
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Christians goes up first and unbelievers are left behind. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
Wicked are taken first, the righteous (Tribulation saints) are left behind. Matthew 13:28-30
------------------------------------
The rapture's purpose is to present the Church to Himself and to the Father 2 Corinthians 11:2, Revelation. 19:6-9
The purpose of the second coming is to execute judgment on the wicked and establish His Kingdom Jude 14-15,Revelation 19:11-21, Zechariah 14:3-4
------------------------------------
Jesus will come FOR His Church. John 14:1-3, 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
Jesus coming WITH His Church Col 3:4, Zechariah 14:5, Jude 14, Revelation 19:14
------------------------------------
Only Christians will see Him 1 John 3:2, 1 Cor 15:52
Every eye will see Him Revelation 1:7
------------------------------------
Jesus comes with a shout(for resurrection) 1 Thessalonians 4:16
No shout mentioned Rev. 19:11-21
------------------------------------
A resurrection takes place 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Cor 15:51-54
No resurrection mentioned Revelation 1:7, 19:11-21, Zechariah 12:10, 14:4-5
------------------------------------
Can happen at any time given Revelation 3:3, 1 Thessalonians 5:4-6
Happens at end of 7 years of Tribulation Dan 9:24-27Matt 24:29-30, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-8
------------------------------------
No angels are sent to gather (resurrected people don't need angels to help them) 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
Angels sent forth to gather people together for judgment Matthew 13:39, 41, 49, 24:31, 25:31, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
------------------------------------
Spirits of those dead in Christ return with Jesus to receive their their resurrected bodies (1 Thessalonians 4:14-16)
Christians return with Jesus in already resurrected bodies riding on white horses. Revelation 19:11-21
------------------------------------
Jesus does not return on a white horse (1 Thessalonians 4:14-16)
Jesus returns on a white horse Revelation 19:11
------------------------------------
The dead in Christ only (those in Christ) 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
For obedient Israel & Gentiles Romans 11:25-27, Matthew 25:31-46
After carefully examining these discrepancies, you will see that there has to be two events at two very distinct time. Anything other than that would be total contradiction.
R
This is one of the most ridiculous argument against the the rapture. Like I have said before, throughout the bible, we have seen trumpets used for various purposes. Mainly for the beginning and the end of something.
Furthermore, we need to look into the Jewish culture. Please do some research on the Jewish feast called "the feast of trumpets" and the words "tekiah gedolah" which means "the last trump." This feast is a Jewish practice where the partakers of blow a series of short trumpet blast lasting about 3 seconds in lengths (some argue that they had different lengths but that's not relevant at this time), except for the last one. The last trumpet blow, which is the longest one of all, is called "the last trump." Judaism connected this "last trump" with the ressurection of the dead, and so does Paul.
There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that connects 1st Corinthians 15 to Matthew 24. The only relationship that they do have is that they are trumpets and they made sounds.
Furthermore, we need to look into the Jewish culture. Please do some research on the Jewish feast called "the feast of trumpets" and the words "tekiah gedolah" which means "the last trump." This feast is a Jewish practice where the partakers of blow a series of short trumpet blast lasting about 3 seconds in lengths (some argue that they had different lengths but that's not relevant at this time), except for the last one. The last trumpet blow, which is the longest one of all, is called "the last trump." Judaism connected this "last trump" with the ressurection of the dead, and so does Paul.
There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that connects 1st Corinthians 15 to Matthew 24. The only relationship that they do have is that they are trumpets and they made sounds.
R
I think you might be right on this multitude not being the church. After a close study of the clues in within the chapter again, the details do not seem to be consistent with the church. I am seeing that you might be right. I will do some research at the library tomorrow and get back to you on this.
Whether the multitude is or isn't the church, my main argument in that post stands! I would like you to respond to that long post when you have a chance.
Whether the multitude is or isn't the church, my main argument in that post stands! I would like you to respond to that long post when you have a chance.