The Rapture Theory

onwingsaseagles · Feb 10, 2009

If you believe God then you will understand this.

6 points that prove post trib rapture (scripture included)

#1 Matt 24:29-31 and mark 13:24-27 say that the 2nd coming is after the tribulation and that there is a gathering of the elect at that time.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

#2 1st Thess 4:15-17 and 1st cor 15:20-23 say that the resurrection of the just/rapture is at the 2nd coming.
1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.

1st Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they they are Christ at his coming.

#3 1st Cor 15:51-53 says that the rapture is at the last trump but matt 24:29-31 says that there is a trump sounded after the tribulation, the rapture can not be b4 this trump therefore can not be until after the trib is over.
1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

#4 Luke 17:26-30 says that the same day we are taken out is the same day Jesus returns to destroy the wicked (which he does at the end of the trib not the start) this is confirmed in 2nd thess 1:6-10.
Luke 17:26-30
26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed.

2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that no not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.

#5 John 6:39,40,44,and 54 all say Jesus said that he would raise us up at the last day (not 7yrs b4 ).
John 6:39, 40, 44 , and 54
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should loose nothing, but raise it up at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
54 Whosoever eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

#6 Rev 20 :4-6 says that the 1st resurrection is after the trib we know this because it includes tribulational martyrs as well as others that refuse to worship the beast or take his mark during the trib.There can be no resurrection of dead saints at a pretrib rapture b4 the 1st resurrection.
Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands,; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousands years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Therefore the pretrib rapture as well as the mid trib is biblically impossible.

If you believe your professor, then you will try and deny God's word.

onwingsaseagles · Feb 10, 2009

I have given plenty of biblical proof, that not only is the post trib view obvious, but that all other views are biblically impossible. Either you believe in the pretrib rapture or you believe God's word, you can not do both. God's word tells us that the second coming is after the tribulation, that the resurrection of the just, as well as the rapture of the living saints, are both at the second coming. It tells us that the first resurrection is at the end of the tribulation and that the rapture comes after the resurrection. Further more the Bible tells us that the rapture is at the last trump and on the last day. We are also told for our need to endure until the very end.

So for you to continue to hold onto the pretrib view, you must insist that immediately after the tribulation actually means right before it starts. You also have to say that the first resurrection is not really the first resurrection, that the last trump isn't really the last trump, and that the same day means seven years apart. Sound funny when put that way, but believe or not there are those that teach just that, when confronted with the truth.

Call me crazy but I believe the Bible means what it says. When it says immediately after the tribulation, I believe it. When it says first resurrection, I believe it is talking about the first resurrection. When it says the last trump, I believe there will be no more trumpets sounded after that one. When the Bible says the rapture is on the same day as the second coming and that Jesus does not return until after the tribulation, I have no choice but to take God's word for it.

Derek · Feb 10, 2009

As a third party here I side with Rosinsky. I have read through all the post with an open mind to both sides because I do not have the knowledge that you both have about the bible. This is a topic that I really want to figure out for myself. Onwings, after reading what you have written, you really do have to stretch to make your verses somewhat prove a point, and I do say somewhat. You dance around a lot of facts and get defensive in your reply's which kind of show that you may be unsure of yourself. Not to pick on you but Rosinsky's points are clear and make sense. The scripture he gives to back up the pre trib doctrine are simple to understand unlike yours that require a ton of explanation and like i said, you really have to stretch to connect the dots. You say to go back and read this forum with an open heart which is a good idea. If you are truly after the truth and not scared of being wrong maybe you should too. Pray for the truth, from the heart before you reread it, if you really are right then you have nothing to loose, right?

onwingsaseagles · Feb 10, 2009

Derek said:

There is not one verse in the whole Bible that says the rapture is before the tribulation. There are many verses that says it is after. No one with an open mind could see things the way you do. And I am not defensive because i am unsure. It does upset me a little when satan blinds the eyes of so called christians to the truth of God.

Plese with all calmness I ask you to explain this passage.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

onwingsaseagles · Feb 10, 2009

This is a question to Derek or Rosinsky. do you or do you not realize that when Jesus returns He is going to destroy the wicked with fire?
Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

No that being said Jesus as well as Paul both tell us that the same day that Jesus comes to destroy the wicked, (which is at the end of the tribulation not before it) is the very same day He is going to rapture or ''deliver'' the saints.

Luke 17:26-30
26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed.

2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that no not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.

Derek · Feb 10, 2009

onwingsaseagles said:

Its my understanding that the "tribes that mourn" are those who realize they made the wrong decision, thats why they mourn, and they see the Lord coming in great glory. And then the angels gather them with a great sound of a trumpet. Im not a theologeon but thats what my study bible says, if you think its wrong then I dont know what to tell you onwings. But think about it...if we are the tribes that mourn before we see the Son of Man coming, why do we mourn? Would you mourn when you see the Son of Man coming? Not me. And besides, I thought it is suposed to happen in the night like a thief, this verse says they see the Son of Man coming. Isnt that contradicting?

Derek · Feb 10, 2009

onwingsaseagles said:

So I had to look up tribulation and it said a time of suffering, could this be now onwings? There is much suffering going on now right? And isnt it said that it will be in the days like Noah, when everyone is joyful and getting married? Do you think these could be the last days? Anyways, what I read from these verses is that we will be raptured before God sends wrath on the earth, just like Lot was and just like Noah was. If we are going through tribulation now and then raptured and then God sends wrath on the earth, then I see your point. If we are not in tribulation now which means it will get a lot worse, well then just like Noah and Lot, God will bring us out before that tribulation sets in, right?

onwingsaseagles · Feb 10, 2009

Derek said:

A couple of decent questions, firstly at the end of the Tribulation most Christians will be dead, those mourning are not believers but unbelievers and believe me they will have every reason to mourn, they are about to go up in flames. 1st Revelation 1:7 tells us that every eye will see Him, how ever it is like a theif in the night as in they will not be expecting His return check out theses verses that come shortly after the reference in Matthew 24:29-31 verses 36-40
Matthew 24:36-40
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left

Many people claim that because we do not know the day or hour that is must occur before the tribulation but we have just been told it takes place immediately after the tribulation only 4 to 5 verses earlier. Now what we are taking a look at is the fact that just like in Noah's day the wicked will not know Christ is coming until He comes and destroys them just like the flood destroyed those in Noah's day. Hoewever Just as Noah knew the flood was coming and was prepared so will we the church know Jesus Christ return is near and we will be prepared. As Luke tells us in Hisd gosple, when the Tribulation reaches its heights of terror then we ''the church'' will know are redemption (the 2nd coming of Chriist and or rapture of the saints) is drawing near.
Luke 21:25-28
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

onwingsaseagles · Feb 10, 2009

onwingsaseagles said:

Derek said:

The tribulation that Jesus returns after will be the worse time of tribulation ever
Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

As I shown in a previous post the comparison to Noah's day has to do with the total unawareness of the wicked that the end was near.

As far as escaping the wrath no one would disagree with that. The problem is there is a large misconception created by the pretrib doctrine is that the tribulation is simonimous to the 7 year tribulation. this is simply not true. The wrath of God is poured out at the end of the tribulation when Jesus returns and He does ''rescue'' us on that very day not 7 years prior.
Luke 17:26-30
26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed.

Notice it say the very same day Lot was removed Fire reign down and destroyed them all, and thus will it be when the Son of man returns. There really could not be a more perfect picture of the truth of the post trib rapture. The very same day Jesus returns at the end of the Tribulation to destroy the world He removes the righteous on that day not 7 years prior.

sweetnshy · Feb 11, 2009

onwingsaseagles said:

Well you didn't really answer my question...all you did was tell me that the rapture is post-trib not pre-trib, which I already know you believe. I'm asking how you think we'll be protected if we're still here during the tribulation. I know that some post-tribbers think it will be like in Exodus when the plagues affected everyone except for God's people, so do you think it will be like that? Or something else? Or do you not think we'll be protected at all and have an entirely different perception on what Rev. 3:10 means when it says we'll be kept from the time that "tries" those on earth?

And by the way.......I'm not trying to argue with you or challenge your beliefs or anything like that. I seriously just want to know your perspective on that verse.

onwingsaseagles · Feb 11, 2009

sweetnshy said:

I got ya, #1 yes we will not be affected by the plagues, also read Revelation 12, it speaks of the woman that flies into the wilderness for 3.5 years where she will be protected by God, this is a reference to believers being fed and kept safe, during the 3.5 year reign of the anti christ.

sweetnshy · Feb 11, 2009

cool, thanks

Thaddaeus · Feb 11, 2009

onwingsaseagles said:

1th 4:13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.1th 4:14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.1th 4:15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.1th 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:1th 4:17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.1th 4:18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Here is the set of verses which support a pre-trib( which I am) First we have to note that this is being addressed to the brethren Notice verse 14 the ones caught up are not the tares but rather the ones that sleep in Jesus. then in verse 16 the Dead in Christ, go back to Lazarus, Jesus once referred to him as sleeping then to help the disciples He said Lazarus was dead. but here in these verses it is clear that the ones *1 (in Christ )are the ones that are called up ( are the brethren ) we go up to them in the clouds.

*1
Joh 6:56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, DWELLeth in me, and I in him.

now here is where we have to determine that this (PRE-TRIB) event is separate. from the gathering up time that Daniel prophesied.

Da 12:1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.Da 12:2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
here it is clear that the saved and the lost are raised up at the same time some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt. so in 1 thes. 4 only those that are asleep in Christ are raised. but in daniel 12 the wheat and the tares, are awked are raised up

now one more point it is clear in 1 Thes. that the only ones that are called up are the ones dead in Christ. those that are not in Christ are not mentioned as being raised up so they are left behind but daniel both are raised up, so if 1 Ths. 4 is post trib. then could you please explain 2pe 3:10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the ELEMENTS shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. and also remember the promise of a new heaven and a new earth.Rev. 21:1Mt 24:39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.Mt 24:40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.Mt 24:41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.Mt 24:42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

If there is no pre-trib rapture then the ones left behind in matt are left behind for what? but just to be burned up. well here is the point there is a time when some arcalled up and some left but in rev. Re 20:12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.Re 20:13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.Re 20:14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

All the dead was raised up . has to be two separate times. So as God has in times past delivered Hids people from the wrath So will God raised me up pre-trib, if you want to go throught it go ahead , but as far as me and my house
we are out of here!!!!!!

onwingsaseagles · Feb 11, 2009

Sure your post was a little herky jerky and hard to keep up with but I do know you posted 1st thess 4:13-18
1st Thess 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Then you asked if 1st Thess is post trib explain 2nd Peter 3:10?
2nd Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
This is easy

#1 We know 1st Thess 4 is post trib because verse 15 tells us it occurs at the coming of the Lord which is a post trib event
#2 as far as 2nd Peter 3 we are raptured just before He sends the fire down just like it says in Luke 17:28-30 and 2nd Thess 1:7-9
Luke 17:28-30
28L ikewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2nd Thess 1:7-9
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

So to sumorize as Jesus descends at His post trib return He first removes the righteous and then destreoy the earth along with the wicked by fire.

MahogonySnail · Feb 11, 2009

There's a few simple reasons why the pre-trib view is wrong, without needing to go into what scripture says :

1) it was not common in the church prior to the 1800's, the overwhelming majority of great bible people in the past have been post-tribbers.
2) there is little record of it in early church writings, except for the writings of Ephraem the Syrian in about 370 AD. Not sure if there are any others.
3) a plain and simple reading of the bible does not lead to a pre-trib conclusion. Pre-tribbers need to read in between the lines a lot and "cut and paste" a lot of scriptures together to come up with a logical story.
4) due to lack of biblical support, the pre-trib movement needs to rely upon fictional books and movies (eg left behind series) in order to indoctrinate or brainwash its followers into believing it.

MahogonySnail · Feb 11, 2009

Here's a list of the great bible people who believed in post-trib rapture:

http://worldview_3.tripod.com/tribchurch.html

Outstanding Bible Teachers in subsequent generations of Church history, who taught that the Church would encounter the persecution of the Antichrist here on earth before the Second Coming, include : John Calvin, Martin Luther, John Knox, John Bunyan, Isaac Newton, George Whitefield, Charles Spurgeon, Charles Hodge, Henry Alford, J.Sidlow Baxter, F.F. Bruce, Thomas Chalmers, Adam Clarke, Jonathan Edwards, Jim Elliott, W.J. Erdman, Robert Gundry, Carl F. Henry, Matthew Henry, John Huss, Orson Jones, C.S. Lovett, J.Gresham Machen, Peter Marshall, Walter Martin, Gary Matsdorf, G.Campbell Morgan, Leon Morris, George Mueller, Ian Murray, B.W. Newton, John Newton, H.J. Ockenga, Bernard Ramm, Alexander Reese, A. Saphir, Demos Shakarian, A.B. Simpson, Oswald J. Smith, Jim Spillman, R.C. Sproul, Charles Spurgeon, Corrie TenBoom, S.P. Tragelles, William Tyndale, B.B. Warfield, Charles Wesley, R.F. Youngblood, -----and premillennial posttribulationists also include : Bengel, Brooks, Cameron, Delitzsch, Derstine, DeWette, Ellicott, Ewald, Frost, Godet, Godwin, Joyner, Kellogg, Moorehead, Orelli, Robertson, Rothe, Ryle, Spener, Stier, Trench, Volck, Van Ostersee, West, Whiston, Zahn, and many more. -----In looking at the whole history of the Christian Church, the overwhelming majority of great Bible-teachers have believed that the Church would encounter Antichrist, and that the rapture and the Second Coming would happen at the same time ...after the tribulation.

MahogonySnail · Feb 11, 2009

Oh and so the kiddies can be brainwashed too, they even made a left behind computer game:

http://www.lbgstore.com/left-behind-eternal-forces-the-pc-game--the-multiplayer-enhancemen.html

Rosinsky · Feb 11, 2009

I am going to start with the "6 points that prove post trib rapture" you've presented as I see that I have never really responded to them. I will modify the format of your quotes just for space purposes. I do not mean anything harmful in doing that.

onwingsaseagles said:

I agree with you that “the 2nd coming is after the tribulation and there is a gathering of the elect at that time.” The scripture clearly makes this quite clear that this is the case. The misunderstanding here, however, is not so much about the gathering of the elect, but about their identity. Who are they? The elect are those who accepted Christ during the tribulation and the Jews (that is all Jews who rejected Christ during the church age who were not raptured with the church). The church, in this passage, is not part of the elect. The reason is because the church will not partake in the tribulation period. A close study of Daniel will reveal this to be true.

#I - The seven years (or the 70th week), the last week of Daniel’s prophesy of the seventy weeks, tribulation period have nothing to do with the church but everything to do with Israel. We must ask why the tribulation period? Where did it come from? To whom it was addressed to? Why? The book of Daniel gives us the answers to these questions.

Daniel 9:1-2 It was the first year of the reign of Darius the Mede, the son of Ahasuerus, who became king of the Babylonians. 2 During the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, learned from reading the word of the Lord, as revealed to Jeremiah the prophet, that Jerusalem must lie desolate for seventy years.

Daniel found out by reading the Word of God from the book of Jeremiah that Jerusalem “must lie desolate for seventy years. As a result, he began fasting and pleading to God so that He would rescind this Judgment upon Jerusalem. Daniel began praying in verse and all the way to verse 19 just to see if He can mediate for his (Daniel’s) people, Israel.

God sent Gabriel to answer Daniel’s prayer. He said “A period of seventy sets of seven has been decreed for your people and your holy city to finish their rebellion, to put an end to their sin, to atone for their guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to confirm the prophetic vision, and to anoint the Most Holy Place.” (verse 24).

Here, clearly the angel reinstated what was previously stated to Daniel and that even though the Lord heard his plea for his people, Israel, the judgment set upon her was would happen no matter what.

The angel Gabriel went on and said “Now listen and understand! Seven sets of seven plus sixty-two sets of seven will pass from the time the command is given to rebuild Jerusalem until a ruler—the Anointed One—comes. Jerusalem will be rebuilt with streets and strong defenses, despite the perilous times. 26 “After this period of sixty-two sets of seven, the Anointed One will be killed, appearing to have accomplished nothing, and a ruler will arise whose armies will destroy the city and the Temple. The end will come with a flood, and war and its miseries are decreed from that time to the very end. 27 The ruler will make a treaty with the people for a period of one set of seven, but after half this time, he will put an end to the sacrifices and offerings. And as a climax to all his terrible deeds, he will set up a sacrilegious object that causes desecration, until the fate decreed for this defiler is finally poured out on him” (verses 25-27).

So as you can see from the scriptures above, Gabriel told Daniel that after the first 69 (Seven sets of seven plus sixty-two sets of seven --- 7 + 62 = 69), the Messiah will come.

Now there remains the 70th set of seven (verse 27) that has yet to happen. This last week is the seven years of tribulation period that we discussing about. As you can see in verse 27, the “ruler” will make a treaty with the people for seven years.

NOTE: For anyone reading this post that needs a more thorough explanation of the 70 sets of 7s, please use any good bible commentary. I took a quick look and found a suitable one that you may use if you’re interested. Click Here

Notice that the 70th set of seven should have come immediately after the 69th? However, we notice that there is a gap between the 69th and the 70th and what lies between the two is the church age, which we are currently living in. This shows that the reason why the 70th set of seven has not happened yet is because the Church is holding it back. The church needs to be removed before the 70th set of seven begins.

#II -The book of revelation reveals that the church is in heaven while the tribulation happens on earth.

Revelation 7:9-10 [FONT=&quot]After[/FONT] this I saw a vast crowd, too great to count, from every nation and tribe and people and language, standing in front of the throne and before the Lamb. They were clothed in white robes and held palm branches in their hands. 10 And they were shouting with a mighty shout, “Salvation comes from our God who sits on the throne and from the Lamb!”
Here we see that after the angel had shouted “Wait! Don’t harm the land or the sea or the trees until we have placed the seal of God on the foreheads of his servants,” holding the opening of the 7th seal to place God’s seal on the forehead of God’s people, the 144,000 Jews, on the earth, John saw a great multitude of people before the throne. Who is this crowd? Given that they are before the throne in heaven before the opening of the seventh seal, the diversity and the magnitude of the crowd, we know that this crowd is the Church. So while the tribulation is going on the earth, the church is already in heaven rejoicing with the Lord Jesus Christ. The fact, they were dressed in white robes means that they have been washed by the blood of the lamb. It is impossible for the church to be part of that elect that Matthew 24 speaks of.

#III - The Church is absolutely absent from the tribulation period. Is this a coincidence? Far from it, it is simply because it is not there.

Those who hold the post tribulation view insist that those “saints” that are found in several places during the tribulation period has to be the church. However, given the fact that the bible shows that the church is already in heaven and the fact that the tribulation period was not set for the church but for Israel, the fact that before the opening of the 7th seal 144,000 were sealed with God’s seal on earth (they were not present within the crowd as the crowd was in heaven and the 144,000 was on earth), those saints cannot be the church. They are 1) the 144,000, 2) Israelites/Jews, and 3) those who have accepted Christ during the seven years tribulation.

onwingsaseagles · Feb 11, 2009

Rosinsky said:

First of all, I have never claimed that the elect was the church because it is irrelevant to my point, because in point 2 I have given biblical proof that the resurrection of the just as well as the rapture is at the 2nd coming of the Lord which you have just agreed is post trib. Further more the fact of the matter is that the elect is the church, The pretrib false teachers must claim as you have to continue to support their false doctrine, which is ridiculous for a born again christian to do. Change the obvious meaning of words just so they do not have to form their doctrine around what the Bible actual teaches.

Slepsog4 · Feb 11, 2009

10 CLUES TO UNLOCK THE BOOK OF REVELATION

Clue #1 — It reveals its style of writing.
The clues are found in: 1:1, 12, 16-20
The first clue is: the book is written in symbols that are explained in Scripture.

Clue #2 — It tells when the events in the book take place.
The clues are found in: 1:1; 22:6
The second clue is: the events were to begin and stand complete shortly from John’s standpoint in time.

Clue #3 — It denotes its author.
The clue is found in: 1:1-2
The third clue is: the book was written by the Apostle John.

Clue #4 — It informs of its theme.
The clues are found in: 2:10; 6:9-10; 7:14; 11:2, 7; 12:17; 13:7, 10, 15; 14:13; 18:24; 19:2; 20:4.
The fourth clue is: the theme and contents of the book is persecution of Christians; the avenging of God; and the victory of Christians.

Clue #5 — It uncovers the identity of the Dragon.
The clue is found in: 12:9
The fifth clue is: the Dragon is Satan.

Clue #6 — It unveils the identity of the 1st Beast.
The clues are found in: 13:2; 17:7-10
The sixth clue is: the 1st Beast is the Roman Empire.

Clue #7 — It uncloaks the identity of the 2nd Beast.
The clues are found in: 13:12
The seventh clue is: the 2nd Beast is some governmental agency which enforced emperor worship during the reign of the 8th Caesar of Rome and persecuted Christians who would not do so.

Clue #8 — It manifests the identity of the Harlot.
The clue is found in: 17:18
The eighth clue is: the woman is the city of Rome.

Clue #9 — It unmasks the identity of Babylon.
The clues are found in: 18:10, 16, 18-19, 21; 18:3, 24; 17:5
The ninth clue is: Babylon is the city of Rome.

Clue #10 — It discloses when the book was written.
The clues are found in: 1:9-11 (see clues 4 & 6-9 above); 17:10
The clues are:
John saw and wrote the vision while on Patmos concerning persecution by Domition, the 8th Caesar (who reigned from 81 to 96 AD).
John wrote during the reign of Vespasian, the 6th head (who reigned from 69-79 AD).
This indicates the book was likely written early, possibly just prior to the fall of Jerusalem (70 AD).

The Rapture Theory

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