Hell's Population Crock

[john832]

You might consider the spiritual interpretation along with figurative language.

Endless Torture Ideology does not provide consistency with Jesus making all things new - Rev 21:5

Uh, that is what I said isn't it?

 

[john832]

Socrates, is it safe to assume that you believe in annihilationism?

If it is not obvious to you by now, let me make it perfectly plain that I believe in annihilationism.

Do you believe in universal salvation as Sophia just suggested?

Please let me know. Thanks.

If there was such a thing as universal salvation, why would there be a hell? Everyone would be saved and no one would be destroyed. Universal salvation is a damnable heresy.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Yes, I need to go back to school to teach you.

Zoe is that endless, immortal life, that Jesus is, which is now in time and space - The Aionious.

The word that means "endless" in greek is "akatalytos", as found in Hebrews 7:16.

Please, can you provide something more challenging and substantive?

Nice try (not really).

You've taught me nothing but that you're ignorant.

Now, would you like to answer the question that I actually asked, namely this:

If the word "aionios" ALWAYS "describes limited time periods", which is what you're seeking to imply, then how do you explain the following:

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Matthew 25:46)

The underlying Greek words which are here translated as "everlasting" in relation to punishment and "eternal" in relation to life ARE BOTH ONE AND THE SAME. YES, THE UNDERLYING GREEK WORD IN BOTH INSTANCES IS "aionios"...which you're implying ALWAYS pertains to "limited time periods". Is the ETERNAL life which Christian inherit "limited"?

 

[Socrates]

Nice try (not really).

You've taught me nothing but that you're ignorant.

Now, would you like to answer the question that I actually asked, namely this:

If the word "aionios" ALWAYS "describes limited time periods", which is what you're seeking to imply, then how do you explain the following:

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Matthew 25:46)

The underlying Greek words which are here translated as "everlasting" in relation to punishment and "eternal" in relation to life ARE BOTH ONE AND THE SAME. YES, THE UNDERLYING GREEK WORD IN BOTH INSTANCES IS "aionios"...which you're implying ALWAYS pertains to "limited time periods". Is the ETERNAL life which Christian inherit "limited"?

Did not try - I did it. You just don't enjoy being "taken to school" - it can be a bit humbling.

Eternal Punishment is Kolasin Aionion in greek - means, correction of the ages - cause and effect.

I answered the Life of Jesus in previous post:

Zoe is that endless, immortal life, that Jesus is, which is now in time and space - The Aionious.

The word that means "endless" in greek is "akatalytos", as found in Hebrews 7:16.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Again, let's reference Jude 1:7...

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Are Sodom and Gomorrah still burning? No but there punishment continues. They were eternally destroyed (eternal damnation).

G2920

κρίσις
krisis
kree'-sis
(Subjectively or objectively, for or against); by extension a tribunal; by implication justice (specifically divine law): - accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.
Total KJV occurrences: 48

There is nothing in this word that suggests CONTINUING punishment. The word means justice, judgment, condemnation.

You might want to familiarize yourself with the first century writings of Philo who said the following (you need to scroll down the page to the section on Abraham and to section XXVII or 27 of the same to find my quote) in relation to the fires of Sodom and Gomorrha WHICH WERE STILL BURNING/SMOLDERING IN HIS DAY or at the time when Jude was writing:

Philo: On Abraham

XXVII. (137) But God, having taken pity on mankind, as being a Saviour and full of love for mankind, increased, as far as possible, the natural desire of men and women for a connexion together, for the sake of producing children, and detesting the unnatural and unlawful commerce of the people of Sodom, he extinguished it, and destroyed those who were inclined to these things, and that not by any ordinary chastisement, but he inflicted on them an astonishing novelty, and unheard of rarity of vengeance; (138) for, on a sudden, he commanded the sky to become overclouded and to pour forth a mighty shower, not of rain but of fire; and as the flame poured down, with a resistless and unceasing violence, the fields were burnt up, and the meadows, and all the dense groves, and the thick marshes, and the impenetrable thickets; the plain too was consumed, and all the crop of wheat, and of everything else that was sown; and all the trees of the mountain district were burnt up, the trunks and the very roots being consumed. (139) And the folds for the cattle, and the houses of the men, and the walls, and all that was in any building, whether of private or public property, were all burnt. And in one day these populous cities became the tomb of their inhabitants, and the vast edifices of stone and timber became thin dust and ashes. (140) And when the flames had consumed everything that was visible and that existed on the face of the earth, they proceeded to burn even the earth itself, penetrating into its lowest recesses, and destroying all the vivifying powers which existed within it so as to produce a complete and everlasting barrenness, so that it should never again be able to bear fruit, or to put forth any verdure; and to this very day it is scorched up. For the fire of the lightning is what is most difficult to extinguish, and creeps on pervading everything, and smouldering. (141) And a most evident proof of this is to be found in what is seen to this day: for the smoke which is still emitted, and the sulphur which men dig up there, are a proof of the calamity which befell that country; while a most conspicuous proof of the ancient fertility of the land is left in one city, and in the land around it. For the city is very populous, and the land is fertile in grass and in corn, and in every kind of fruit, as a constant evidence of the punishment which was inflicted by the divine will on the rest of the country.

I have some pressing matters which I need to attend to for a few hours, so I won't be able to participate anymore in this thread until later...

 

[Socrates]

I Corinthians 15

[SUP]22[/SUP] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
[SUP]23[/SUP] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
[SUP]24[/SUP] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
[SUP]25[/SUP] For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
[SUP]26[/SUP] The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
[SUP]27[/SUP] For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
[SUP]28[/SUP] And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 

[kaylagrl]

If it is not obvious to you by now, let me make it perfectly plain that I believe in annihilationism.



If there was such a thing as universal salvation, why would there be a hell? Everyone would be saved and no one would be destroyed. Universal salvation is a damnable heresy.

Thank you! I may not always agree but as I said you are always straight forward about what you believe.I appreciate your answers.I believe in eternal damnation,just for the record. I believe that is what the Bible says.Either way its most important not to go to hell/hades whatever in the first place and find out.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Did not try - I did it. You just don't enjoy being "taken to school" - it can be a bit humbling.

Eternal Punishment is Kolasin Aionion in greek - means, correction of the ages - cause and effect.

I answered the Life of Jesus in previous post:

Zoe is that endless, immortal life, that Jesus is, which is now in time and space - The Aionious.

The word that means "endless" in greek is "akatalytos", as found in Hebrews 7:16.

You still didn't answer my question and I doubt that you even know where the school is located.

Again, by what you posted earlier, you sought to imply that "aionios" ALWAYS "describes limited time periods", yet this same word is used to describe BOTH "EVERLASTING" punishment and "ETERNAL" life. Seeing how you believe that the "EVERLASTING" ("aionios") punishment is only "limited", then wouldn't the "ETERNAL" ("aionios") life be "limited", too?

Btw, do yourself a favor and drop the false bravado. I've shown great constraint with you thus far, but I'll sweep the floor clean of both you and your heresy if need be. It's your call.

I'll be back later...

 

[john832]

...said the voice of the dragon.

This same Jesus prayed:

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." (John 17:12)

How does that fit in with your heresy?

Also, if you backed up just one chapter from your cherry-picked "quote", then you would have read the following words of Jesus, too:

John chapter 5

[28] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
[29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Unlike you, Jesus understood that there are TWO RESURRECTIONS...one unto life and the other unto damnation. Yes, unlike you, Jesus was more than familiar with that which Daniel had written:

Daniel chapter 12

[1] And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
[2] And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
[3] And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

What is it about "shame and everlasting contempt" that you don't understand?

There are actually three resurrections.

 

[john832]

Wow,wow wow!! You dont believe hell is eternal? So I know any Scripture I list to the contrary you will have an answer for right? Ive seen this thread pop up a lot and had to read the first few comments.


Matt.25....41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Is heaven eternal? So is hell according to the Bible.

Matt.18...And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire."

• "And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (2 Thessalonians. 1:9).

So according to the Bible hell is eternal as much as life in heaven is eternal.Dont know how you could come to a different conclusion.

Let's look at eternal fire...

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Still burning? Or is the result eternal?

As far as heaven, no one ever goes there...

Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

Christ returns to the earth, rules for 1000 years until all are brought into total subjection...

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Then as verse 28 shows, the Father comes down to the earth with New Jerusalem...

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

We don't go there, God actually comes here.

 

[Socrates]

You still didn't answer my question and I doubt that you even know where the school is located.

Again, by what you posted earlier, you sought to imply that "aionios" ALWAYS "describes limited time periods", yet this same word is used to describe BOTH "EVERLASTING" punishment and "ETERNAL" life. Seeing how you believe that the "EVERLASTING" ("aionios") punishment is only "limited", then wouldn't the "ETERNAL" ("aionios") life be "limited", too?

Btw, do yourself a favor and drop the false bravado. I've shown great constraint with you thus far, but I'll sweep the floor clean of both you and your heresy if need be. It's your call.

I'll be back later...

Since you persist in ignoring the Hebrew and Greek words for the translational argument that you present, you will remain in the "blackness of darkness" concerning the Creator of the Universe being ALL IN ALL.

If you feel that you have offered great restraint, you are going to learn a new definition of restraint.

 

[john832]

That Scripture refers to the Jews as Gods chosen people.I dont see where you think that is a get out of hell free card.

No, this scripture refers to putting the earth back to the condition it was prior to Gen 3...

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

 

[kaylagrl]

Let's look at eternal fire...

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Still burning? Or is the result eternal?

As far as heaven, no one ever goes there...

Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

Christ returns to the earth, rules for 1000 years until all are brought into total subjection...

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Then as verse 28 shows, the Father comes down to the earth with New Jerusalem...

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

We don't go there, God actually comes here.

Is there eternal life?

 

[kaylagrl]

No, this scripture refers to putting the earth back to the condition it was prior to Gen 3...

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

I already spoke about that.I referred to the wrong verse between two threads.He was using an OT verse that was speaking to the Jews.I have yet to find what I was talking about.I'll repost if I do.

 

[Socrates]

Is there eternal life?

Jesus is Life, Yes, He is Endless.

The greek words you refer to in the phrase "Eternal Life" is Zoe Aionious - The Life of the Ages.

 

[kaylagrl]

Jesus is Life, Yes, He is Endless.

The greek words you refer to in the phrase "Eternal Life" is Zoe Aionious - The Life of the Ages.

So if there is eternal life why then not eternal damnation?

 

[john832]

Is there eternal life?

Of course, but we do not currently possess it. We are mortal and only God is immortal...

1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

The converse of death is life...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Notice the word for eternal here is not age lasting G165 it is...

G166

αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
Total KJV occurrences: 71

And means eternal, perpetual. Eternal life is a gift that God give us through Christ at the resurrection...

1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Notice we SHALL bear? Future tense.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

When? At the last trump, the return of Christ.

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

We will put on immortality at the resurrection.

This verse is quoted often...

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Ever notice the previous verse is not quoted with it?

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Christ shows here when we receive eternal life. At the resurrection.

 

[john832]

So if there is eternal life why then not eternal damnation?

The opposite of eternal life is eternal death, not eternal life in some other place.

 

[john832]

I already spoke about that.I referred to the wrong verse between two threads.He was using an OT verse that was speaking to the Jews.I have yet to find what I was talking about.I'll repost if I do.

My mistake and I do apologize. I was working my way through this thread and missed that.

 

[kaylagrl]

My mistake and I do apologize. I was working my way through this thread and missed that.

No problem,easy to miss when there are large threads.