Hell's Population Crock

[Socrates]

Basement theologians don't attend churches.

Yes, some of them have Come out of Babylon ( Rev 18:4).

 

[kaylagrl]

Nope. Does not say that.

Rev 21:5 Behold, I make ALL THINGS NEW!! - what part of ALL THINGS do you not understand?


Matthew 12: 20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.
21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.

I was talking about another Scripture you posted not this one.
Rev 21...Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’[b] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur.This is the second death.”

Still talks about the lake of fire.So what are you meaning by "all things new?" New heaven and earth is what the verse is saying.What is your meaning?

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Understand more than you know - you should do your Hebrew and Greek Words Bible Study - do I have to do all your homework for you?

Let us start with the Old Testament. When our Bibles say that something is "forever" or "eternal" or "everlasting" in the Old Testament, the word that the Hebrew writers used was "olam" (Strong's #5769). If we trace the Bible's usage of this word we will see that it does not really mean forever. Jonah wrote about his time in the great fish, "The earth with her bars closed behind me forever (olam)" (Jonah 2:6). Yet he was only there for three days (Jonah 1:17). When a Hebrew slave loved his master he would have his ear bored with an awl and would then "serve him forever (olam)" (Exod. 21:6). Of course this could only mean for the rest of his life. God said about Solomon's temple that He would put His name there forever (olam) (1 Kin 9:3), but this temple burned to the ground 400 years later. Israel was not allowed to let a Moabite or Ammonite into the congregation forever (olam) (Deut. 23:3), but in the same verse this is explained to mean "for ten generations." Isaiah wrote that certain places in Israel shall become desolate forever (olam) (Isa 32:14), but the next verse says, ? until the Spirit is poured out from on high and the wilderness becomes a fruitful field.? The Levitical priesthood was said to be an eternal (olam) priesthood (Ex 40:15), but the Bible then tells us that it was superceded by the Melchizedek priesthood (Heb 7:11-18). The Sinai covenant was called an everlasting (olam) covenant (Lev 24:8), but the New Testament says it is obsolete and ready to vanish away (Heb 8:13). Sabbaths and ritual sacrifices were to be observed as a statute forever (olam) (Lev. 6:18; 16:31; 2 Chr. 2:4; Exod. 31:16-17), but then we read that they were but ?fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation? (Heb. 9:10). So when we read in Dan. 12:2 that "some shall rise to shame and everlasting (olam) contempt," never-ending punishment is not what is being taught. God will punish until His people are corrected and repent. The word "olam" should be translated "indefinitely" or "age-lasting." This would clear up many contradictions in our English language Bibles.
Now let us turn to the New Testament where most of the so-called eternal punishment verses are located. We have about a dozen references to eternal punishment here. For instance we are told that some shall go to the "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41), some shall go to "eternal punishment" (Matt. 25:46) or suffer "eternal destruction" (2 Thess 1:9) or go into the lake of fire "forever and ever" (Rev. 20:10). In all of these dozen or so verses the length of the punishment is described by the Greek word "aion" (Strongs #165) or its adjective form "aionios" (#166). These words are used over and over again in the New Testament to describe limited time periods . Again, it is very easy to prove this by tracing their usage with a concordance. But first let me point out that we get our English word "eon" from the Greek "aion." An eon is an age, a long but limited period of time.
Now the word "aion" is translated as "age" (sometimes as "world") in dozens of passages in most Bibles. Here are some examples: "I am with you even to the end of the age (aion)" (Matt. 28:20), "the harvest is the end of the age (aion)" (Matt. 13:39), "the god of this age (aion) has blinded .." (2 Cor. 4:4), "the mystery that has been hidden from ages (aions) and generations" (Col. 1:26), "in the ages (aions) to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace" (Eph. 2:7), "might deliver us from this present evil age (aion)" (Gal. 1:4), "by whom also He made the ages (aions)" (Heb. 1:2). Now try putting the sense of eternity into these verses and see how ridiculous it is: "the harvest is the end of the eternity ," "the god of this eternity ," "the mystery hidden from eternities and generations," "in the eternities to come ," "from this present evil eternity ," etc. And yet this is the very same word on which the doctrine of eternal punishment stands!
The words "olam" and "aion" have precisely the same meaning. They mean indefinite time, not never-ending time . They should be consistently translated as "age" or "age-lasting." The wicked are thrown into an age-lasting fire. The lake of fire lasts for an age of ages, not forever and ever. The phrase "forever and ever" is nonsense. What is the need for the second "ever" if the first one means never-ending. It's like saying, "forever plus a day." The proper translation is "for an age of ages" or "to the age of the age." This describes a long but not infinite amount of time. The Bible is remarkably consistent in the original Hebrew and Greek languages in which it was written. In Matt. 25:46 the word translated "punishment" is "kolasis" in the Greek and means "to reform by pruning or chastising." Some go away not to "everlasting punisment" but to "age-lasting chastisement." God's punishments are not meaningless and vindictive, but fatherly punishments that correct sinners and bring about righteousness. [Note: Matt. 25:46 is translated in the following way in these Bibles: "these shall go away to punishment age-during" (Young's Literal Translation), "these shall go away into the Punishment of the Ages" (Weymouth's NT), "these shall be coming away into chastening eonian" (Concordant Literal Version), "these shall go away into age-abiding correction (Rotherham's Emphasized Bible), "these last will go away into aeonian punishment" (20th Cent. NT).]

And...???

For starters, I've been familiar with what you posted above for probably 20 something years, so, no, you don't need to do my homework for me.

Secondly, what you just posted defeats your own argument. IOW, the articles says:

In all of these dozen or so verses the length of the punishment is described by the Greek word "aion" (Strongs #165) or its adjective form "aionios" (#166). These words are used over and over again in the New Testament to describe limited time periods .

If the word "aionios" ALWAYS "describes limited time periods", which is what you're seeking to imply, then how do you explain the following:

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Matthew 25:46)

The underlying Greek words which are here translated as "everlasting" in relation to punishment and "eternal" in relation to life ARE BOTH ONE AND THE SAME. YES, THE UNDERLYING GREEK WORD IN BOTH INSTANCES IS "aionios"...which you're implying ALWAYS pertains to "limited time periods". Is the ETERNAL life which Christian inherit "limited"?

You need to go back to school...

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Restoring all things is talking about the Jews.Further is says "by you all nations will be blessed.Those that curse you will be cursed,those that bless you will be blessed" that is speaking of Gods chosen people.

You are so wrong on this, but that's another topic of discussion for another day...

 

[john832]

Restoring all things is talking about the Jews.Further is says "by you all nations will be blessed.Those that curse you will be cursed,those that bless you will be blessed" that is speaking of Gods chosen people.

HUH? All things is just the tribe of Judah?

 

[Socrates]

And...???

For starters, I've been familiar with what you posted above for probably 20 something years, so, no, you don't need to do my homework for me.

Secondly, what you just posted defeats your own argument. IOW, the articles says:



If the word "aionios" ALWAYS "describes limited time periods", which is what you're seeking to imply, then how do you explain the following:

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Matthew 25:46)

The underlying Greek words which are here translated as "everlasting" in relation to punishment and "eternal" in relation to life ARE BOTH ONE AND THE SAME. YES, THE UNDERLYING GREEK WORD IN BOTH INSTANCES IS "aionios"...which you're implying ALWAYS pertains to "limited time periods". Is the ETERNAL life which Christian inherit "limited"?

You need to go back to school...

Yes, I need to go back to school to teach you.

Zoe is that endless, immortal life, that Jesus is, which is now in time and space - The Aionious.

The word that means "endless" in greek is "akatalytos", as found in Hebrews 7:16.

Please, can you provide something more challenging and substantive?

 

[kaylagrl]

You are so wrong on this, but that's another topic of discussion for another day...

Yes I know you dont believe dispensationalism,you made that very clear to me before.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

A priest after the Order of Melchizedek.

YOU are?? Really?

The only One in history that description fits (other than Melchizedek, who was nothing more than a type, not an actual fulfillment of the description) is Jesus Christ. I doubt you realize it, but that statement equates you to Him. I don't think so.

Do you need scripture? If you do, look it up.

You haven't got any that will support that statement.

 

[Radius]

Yes, I need to go back to school to teach you.

Zoe is that endless, immortal life, that Jesus is, which is now in time and space - The Aionious.

The word that means "endless" in greek is "akatalytos", as found in Hebrews 7:16.

Please, can you provide something more challenging and substantive?

the pride drips from your every post.

 

[kaylagrl]

HUH? All things is just the tribe of Judah?

Nah cant find the OT verse he was talking about.In that it was talking about the Jews.Cant seem to find it.Yes we will be part of the new heaven and earth.Talking between two threads here and may have responded to the wrong Scripture verse.

 

[john832]

Alright fellas...quick question or two.
Isn't the word "forever" used in the Bible, for....... God, Heaven, AND Hell??
How can it not mean "forever" when in reference to Hell?, and yet when the EXACT SAME WORD applied to "God or Heaven" it means forever-forever?

I don't expect a response.
.......We all can sometimes explain away the things we do not like in scripture.
It's a bad habit of human beings.

The word "forever" is the translation the 1611 translators assigned to the original. The orginal word is

G165

αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.
Total KJV occurrences: 128

Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

The word for world here is the exact same word...

G165 αἰών aiōn

but is translated world. Now by the sentence construction we see that it CANNOT mean forever here. The sentence says that this person will not be forgiven in this aion nor in the world to come. If it meant forever, there would be no world to come, forever has no end.

There are other interesting constructs in the N.T. also...

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Would you say that Sodom and Gomorrah are still burning? No, but the result is eternal. They are gone and gone yet they are not presently burning.

There is a vast difference between eternal punishing and eternal punishment. The Bible teaches eternal punishment but not eternal punishing.

 

[john832]

Mark 3:27-30 (KJV) [SUP]27 [/SUP]No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: [SUP]29 [/SUP]But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: [SUP]30 [/SUP]Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

Jesus declared, All the sins and blasphemies (derogatory words vs. God) of men (generic, “people”) are open to God’s gracious forgiveness (cf. 1:4) with one exception—blasphemies against the Holy Spirit. In light of the context this refers to an attitude (not an isolated act or utterance) of defiant hostility toward God that rejects His saving power toward man, expressed in the Spirit-empowered person and work of Jesus. It is one’s preference for darkness even though he has been exposed to light (cf. John 3:19). Such a persistent attitude of willful unbelief can harden into a condition in which repentance and forgiveness, both mediated by God’s Spirit, become impossible. This person is guilty (enochos, “liable to, in the grasp”) of an eternal sin (sing., the ultimate sin because it remains forever unforgiven; cf. Matt. 12:32). Judas Iscariot (cf. Mark 3:29; 14:43-46) proved the reality of these words.— The Bible Knowledge Commentary

Next.....

Again, let's reference Jude 1:7...

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Are Sodom and Gomorrah still burning? No but there punishment continues. They were eternally destroyed (eternal damnation).

G2920

κρίσις
krisis
kree'-sis
(Subjectively or objectively, for or against); by extension a tribunal; by implication justice (specifically divine law): - accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.
Total KJV occurrences: 48

There is nothing in this word that suggests CONTINUING punishment. The word means justice, judgment, condemnation.

 

[kaylagrl]

The word "forever" is the translation the 1611 translators assigned to the original. The orginal word is

G165

αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.
Total KJV occurrences: 128

Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

The word for world here is the exact same word...

G165 αἰών aiōn

but is translated world. Now by the sentence construction we see that it CANNOT mean forever here. The sentence says that this person will not be forgiven in this aion nor in the world to come. If it meant forever, there would be no world to come, forever has no end.

There are other interesting constructs in the N.T. also...

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Would you say that Sodom and Gomorrah are still burning? No, but the result is eternal. They are gone and gone yet they are not presently burning.

There is a vast difference between eternal punishing and eternal punishment. The Bible teaches eternal punishment but not eternal punishing.

So let me wrap my head around this.At least i'll get a straight answer from you,one reason I like you and your posts so much.You do believe people will burn in hell but not for eternity? Is that it? So what happens after that? Not trying to be sarcastic either.And what theology is this?

 

[john832]

when the Bible speaks of eternal life for those that are in Christ...is that temporary too? is the same greek word used for both eternities for unsaved and saved alike?

No it is a gift but it is something you do not currently possess. Don't base your salvation on the translators renderings, base it on truth you can discover with study, prayer and fasting.

 

[Socrates]

the pride drips from your every post.

Some may say, "assertive", those on the defensive, always have to make it personal, because they cannot attack the message.

Yes, the righteous are as bold as a lion.

 

[john832]

Why should I trust what you bring brother? Why should we?

You should not. A wise man once said "Don't believe me, believe your Bible." So if you want the truth on the subject, don't base your belief on one verse, read the scriptures, put them together and see what all of them say. Study into the meaning of the words but do not necessarily trust commentaries, they are the work of men and they do not agree with one another. Which commentary is right?

 

[john832]

So let me wrap my head around this.At least i'll get a straight answer from you,one reason I like you and your posts so much.You do believe people will burn in hell but not for eternity? Is that it? So what happens after that? Not trying to be sarcastic either.And what theology is this?

What happens to those cast into hell?

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The word for death is...

G2288

θάνατος
thanatos
than'-at-os
From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively): - X deadly, (be . . .) death.
Total KJV occurrences: 119

It means they die, they do not go on living in a place of terrible torment, they die.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Not life in some other place of torment, the wages of sin is death. And again, the word for death here is...

G2288

θάνατος
thanatos
than'-at-os
From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively): - X deadly, (be . . .) death.
Total KJV occurrences: 119

What did God say about life and death...

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Not burn forever in hell but rather they would die.

Can a soul die?

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

And the word for destroy here is...

G622

ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
Total KJV occurrences: 92

It cannot mean life in some other place of torment, it means destruction. What is the ultimate fate of the wicked?

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

They are cast into the Lake of Fire Rev 20:13-15 and burned to death. Burned to ashes and are gone forever.

What theology is this? The theology of the Bible. I do not look to other men to give me some explanation of the scriptures, I believe what they plainly teach.

Sorry this is long but you asked a serious question and deserve a serious answer.

 

[john832]

Jason, you are trying to teach something that is not Biblical. God's word is perfect and normally when there is a word with multiple meanings you just have to read the Hebrew or the Greek and you will find the truth. God cannot change or else He is a liar.

Yes God is perfect but the 1611 translators are a different story.

 

[Socrates]

What happens to those cast into hell?

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The word for death is...

G2288

θάνατος
thanatos
than'-at-os
From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively): - X deadly, (be . . .) death.
Total KJV occurrences: 119

It means they die, they do not go on living in a place of terrible torment, they die.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Not life in some other place of torment, the wages of sin is death. And again, the word for death here is...

G2288

θάνατος
thanatos
than'-at-os
From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively): - X deadly, (be . . .) death.
Total KJV occurrences: 119

What did God say about life and death...

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Not burn forever in hell but rather they would die.

Can a soul die?

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

And the word for destroy here is...

G622

ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
Total KJV occurrences: 92

It cannot mean life in some other place of torment, it means destruction. What is the ultimate fate of the wicked?

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

They are cast into the Lake of Fire Rev 20:13-15 and burned to death. Burned to ashes and are gone forever.

What theology is this? The theology of the Bible. I do not look to other men to give me some explanation of the scriptures, I believe what they plainly teach.

Sorry this is long but you asked a serious question and deserve a serious answer.

You might consider the spiritual interpretation along with figurative language.

Endless Torture Ideology does not provide consistency with Jesus making all things new - Rev 21:5

 

[john832]

Out of curiosity, for how long do you believe the actual fire of the lake of fire will burn?

Is it burning already?

Where is the lake of fire situated?

When will it go out?

Thanks.

How long does it burn? The Bible does not tell us, what it does tell us is that it does not burn forever.

It is not burning now...

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Occurs after the Millennium and after the Last Great Day.

Where is the Lake of Fire? Don't need to repost the same scriptures, read the above. The entire earth is cleansed with fire before the New Heavens and the New Earth and New Jerusalem.

When does it go out? After the earth is cleansed...

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Read verse 4 again. Notice that now their is no more death, sorrow, crying or pain because that has passed away?