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I do and will continue to defend such people from murderers seeking his life. We are so confused about the bible that even today most believe that Sodom was destroyed because the whole city was gay! 1000's upon 1000's of them! How the hell were they or any other kids born then? Again I know what the law says. You however have the power to forgive. Simply excercise it!
Hmmm, this thread started 10 hours ago and after the initial post, its been nothing but fighting between members here with not a single peep out of the originator of this thread.
Is someone laughing at all this bickering?
Is someone laughing at all this bickering?
Agreed on!
If I was a gay, a cheater, a killer, a male prostitute I won´t say it aloud.
If I die for watching porn, for being meager, for anything... I won´t tell it to other sinners who forget they also sin (or have sinned same ways).
It is clear that you understand very little about the scriptures. Here is a segment of my teaching outline on Genesis if you are not too proud to read it.
D. A biblical profile of Sodom – Why exactly were they destroyed?
1. Isaiah 3:8-9 says of Judah and Jerusalem, “they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not.” They had become so devoid of behavioral restraints that they did not even attempt to conceal their sins.
a. No more fear of God.
b. No more fear of accountability
c. No more shame for their corrupted behavior.
2. Ezekiel 16: 48-50 says that they were:
a. Arrogant
b. Abundant in food – This fosters an attitude of self-sufficiency and self-reliance. No sense of a need for God.
c. Unconcerned – no fear of consequences
d. Haughty – proud. This is one of the things that God says he definitively hates.
e. The behaved abominably or detestably.
f. They did not help the poor and needy. No social conscience left.
3. Jude 7
a. They indulged in gross immorality.
b. They went after strange flesh. What defines “strange”? “Strange” is that which God has not approved for the purpose. See the example of the “strange fire” offered by Nadab and Abihu in Leviticus 10:1-3. Like those of Sodom and the other cities of the plains, their substitution of things that were strange cost them their lives.
4. In Romans 1, the apostle Paul outlines the four stages of social deterioration.
a. It begins with the suppression of truth. This, he describes as the rejection of the Word of God. This distills into idolatry. Consequently, God gave them over to it,18-23.
b. This then, deteriorated into Moral depravity which he defines as a dishonoring of their bodies. So, God gave them over again, 24-25.
c. This in turn produced the embrace of homosexuality. God gave them over yet again, 26-28.
d. Society then bottomed out submitting themselves to absolute depravity of both mind and body. Notice that here God does not give the over to further decline because there is no further level of decline to be had. The simply cannot decline any further. Of these he God says, “they who commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.”
D. A biblical profile of Sodom – Why exactly were they destroyed?
1. Isaiah 3:8-9 says of Judah and Jerusalem, “they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not.” They had become so devoid of behavioral restraints that they did not even attempt to conceal their sins.
a. No more fear of God.
b. No more fear of accountability
c. No more shame for their corrupted behavior.
2. Ezekiel 16: 48-50 says that they were:
a. Arrogant
b. Abundant in food – This fosters an attitude of self-sufficiency and self-reliance. No sense of a need for God.
c. Unconcerned – no fear of consequences
d. Haughty – proud. This is one of the things that God says he definitively hates.
e. The behaved abominably or detestably.
f. They did not help the poor and needy. No social conscience left.
3. Jude 7
a. They indulged in gross immorality.
b. They went after strange flesh. What defines “strange”? “Strange” is that which God has not approved for the purpose. See the example of the “strange fire” offered by Nadab and Abihu in Leviticus 10:1-3. Like those of Sodom and the other cities of the plains, their substitution of things that were strange cost them their lives.
4. In Romans 1, the apostle Paul outlines the four stages of social deterioration.
a. It begins with the suppression of truth. This, he describes as the rejection of the Word of God. This distills into idolatry. Consequently, God gave them over to it,18-23.
b. This then, deteriorated into Moral depravity which he defines as a dishonoring of their bodies. So, God gave them over again, 24-25.
c. This in turn produced the embrace of homosexuality. God gave them over yet again, 26-28.
d. Society then bottomed out submitting themselves to absolute depravity of both mind and body. Notice that here God does not give the over to further decline because there is no further level of decline to be had. The simply cannot decline any further. Of these he God says, “they who commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.”
Who, sir?
Besides, becasue I know it is not me "who has done that", conversely, I cannot wonder the times any member of humankind (or Christiany) has played his/her role so judgementatively.
Althought I don´t like Paul´s, this serves to think:
Rom 2:1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, everyone who judges, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself, for you who judge are practicing the same things.
Besides, becasue I know it is not me "who has done that", conversely, I cannot wonder the times any member of humankind (or Christiany) has played his/her role so judgementatively.
Althought I don´t like Paul´s, this serves to think:
Rom 2:1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, everyone who judges, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself, for you who judge are practicing the same things.
No it isn't, but maintaining one command from an Old Testament book (homosexuality is an abomination) and refusing to maintain various instructions compelling you to stone people to death is a good example of how people like to cherry pick which parts of a book they'll follow and which they won't.
Just condemnation? Not even Jesus believed in stoning people to death. Love your enemies, remember?
Recognizing and siezing upon nonviolent instructions you can uphold within the tight restrictions modern society affords you to do so while ignoring those other violent instructions which society does not afford you room to uphold, under the guise of being lighthanded in punishment, is really just covering up the reality that you find such violent intructions as morally repugnant as everyone else does.
In that case, you might as well disregad Leviticus entirely.
V
There are misperceptions about all types of people in many of our churches. Some churches will tell the alcoholic or drug addict or disordered gambler that they "just need to surrender to God." Well, if they could "just do" that, they wouldn't be in the throes of their addiction, would they? Obviously it is possible for people living an LGBT lifestyle to have a monogamous relationship. Apparently there are people who don't know that, including your pastor.
What I found in your post that I would like more information about is this:
The issue is, are you practicing? I know many churches -- many Southern Baptist Churches which some will find incredulous -- that would not only accept you but allow you to serve, providing you were abstinent. It is the same principle as with any other sinner, but it the addict or the adulterer or whomever: Practicing the sin must be addressed, specifically, stopped. My church has gay members.
Some of them have an accountability group that meets once a week, aimed not at "changing their lifestyle" but accepting that, at this point in their lives, they cannot see a need nor do they desire to make such a change, if it is possible. They simply work towards remaining abstinent, supporting one another in that, and accepting what the Bible says about the practice of homosexuality -- that it, is it a sin. Not a greater sin than any other, not a lesser sin, but a sin nonetheless. If they want to remain in close relationship with God with no barriers, this is, for now, how they have determined that they must do so.
I would encourage you to sit down and have an honest discussion with your pastor, show him you can be abstinent and accountable -- that is, if you want to be. If not, then that opens up a different set of issues that you must resolve for yourself before you can move forward from here.
What I found in your post that I would like more information about is this:
The issue is, are you practicing? I know many churches -- many Southern Baptist Churches which some will find incredulous -- that would not only accept you but allow you to serve, providing you were abstinent. It is the same principle as with any other sinner, but it the addict or the adulterer or whomever: Practicing the sin must be addressed, specifically, stopped. My church has gay members.
Some of them have an accountability group that meets once a week, aimed not at "changing their lifestyle" but accepting that, at this point in their lives, they cannot see a need nor do they desire to make such a change, if it is possible. They simply work towards remaining abstinent, supporting one another in that, and accepting what the Bible says about the practice of homosexuality -- that it, is it a sin. Not a greater sin than any other, not a lesser sin, but a sin nonetheless. If they want to remain in close relationship with God with no barriers, this is, for now, how they have determined that they must do so.
I would encourage you to sit down and have an honest discussion with your pastor, show him you can be abstinent and accountable -- that is, if you want to be. If not, then that opens up a different set of issues that you must resolve for yourself before you can move forward from here.
C
SecularHermit - did you even read this post?
Link > http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/105135-gay-confused-4.html#post1831618
Link > http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/105135-gay-confused-4.html#post1831618
Why? Because it doesn't align with your rigid belief?
Nothing about being gay. This is our current condition. We live in a country that has 18 million empty homes with only 3 million homeless. Why are they still that way? Because we are exactly as listed! If Sidon had 18 million homes empty in their day, they would not have done what they did. These things that are mentioned is a spiritual battle. Sexual immorality has nothing to do with the flesh that profits nothing. This is about the wisdom from above, and that which is from below or earthly that we choose to fornicate with. An example of this sexual immorality is blessing God, but cursing men made in God's image.
Nothing about being gay. This is our current condition. We live in a country that has 18 million empty homes with only 3 million homeless. Why are they still that way? Because we are exactly as listed! If Sidon had 18 million homes empty in their day, they would not have done what they did. These things that are mentioned is a spiritual battle. Sexual immorality has nothing to do with the flesh that profits nothing. This is about the wisdom from above, and that which is from below or earthly that we choose to fornicate with. An example of this sexual immorality is blessing God, but cursing men made in God's image.
i think you missed the part about His law being inscribed on this awesome new heart i got for Christmas?
(thanks God!)
at some point in your life you learned not to put your hand into a flame. maybe it was experience or maybe you just respected what someone told you. because there is a doctor in the house, do you think you can pick up coals and put them in your pocket without being burned? having an aspirin doesn't mean there is no such thing as pain anymore. so if we can be forgiven in grace, sin remains sin.
(thanks God!)
at some point in your life you learned not to put your hand into a flame. maybe it was experience or maybe you just respected what someone told you. because there is a doctor in the house, do you think you can pick up coals and put them in your pocket without being burned? having an aspirin doesn't mean there is no such thing as pain anymore. so if we can be forgiven in grace, sin remains sin.
I don't put my hand in a flame, and that's because I physically observed and experimented with that flame, stuck my hand in and it burned. But I don't see how abstract philosophical ruminations on sin can be physically observed or experienced like a hand in a fire can.
Maybe if I jump in bed with a bloke and begin to smell singeing hair then your analogies will make sense.
Maybe if I jump in bed with a bloke and begin to smell singeing hair then your analogies will make sense.
Agreed on, brother (if I deserve the priviledge and permission to call you so) but, on the other side, somewhat possitive, I think our actual reactions on the BIBLICAL FORUM -as dealing that issue in the church- in front on a world who longs for a friendly hand to sort that problem out, seemed hopeless, unloving, etc.
I don´t have sodomites as friends, I have talked to lesbians, prostitues, etc. and I know how they feel being rejected.
My mom has a neighbor (with AIDS, by the way) and the times I have spoken to him about God and the Lord Jesus have convinced me they need Jesus same way we humans need and, as I have known talking to some of my Christians friends my own country, only God knows it all.
Excuse me Oldhermit (sirs or ladies) if I offended any of you with my reaction.
"Iron sharpens iron"
I don´t have sodomites as friends, I have talked to lesbians, prostitues, etc. and I know how they feel being rejected.
My mom has a neighbor (with AIDS, by the way) and the times I have spoken to him about God and the Lord Jesus have convinced me they need Jesus same way we humans need and, as I have known talking to some of my Christians friends my own country, only God knows it all.
Excuse me Oldhermit (sirs or ladies) if I offended any of you with my reaction.
"Iron sharpens iron"
You are clearly not reading these texts so I will post the Rom. 1 text and point out some things you may not have noticed in the text.
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them."
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them."
I am reading the text, I simply understand them. Do we need money to live? Is that world the truth or is it suppressed? Again in proper understanding, ADAM represents ALL of mankind both male and female. They are the "man!" The woman is the spirit or wisdom that comes from Adam (mankind) as his helpmeet. So men (mankind) abandoned the natural function of a woman (wisdom as a SILENT helpmeet) and burned with desire toward one another such as what's happening on this thread.