THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
I did not write blessed is the man in whom the Lord will not impute sin...God did and I didn't justify folks by faith in Christ and His Blood...God did that... I did not set folks free from the ministry of condemnation...God did that....And He is always right and righteous to justify those who have faith in Jesus Christ...God will not call dirty what He has made clean by the blood of His Son...

Yes but He imputes that sin, only after it has been repented of and asked forgiveness.
If you continue to sin or return to sin which the scriptures say that a believer can do, and not repent, confess, and ask forgiveness of, that sin is your master.

Oh and kind of off topic, you do not that one of the reason Paul maybe hard to understand as Peter stated. Is that you know he did not write all of his epistles ???
 
K

Kerry

Guest
Being perfect as best we can is by placing our faith in the work of the cross and allowing the Holy Spirit to work in us and through us, producing good fruit.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
do you do that 24/7?



Same old stuff.

We agree, if you never obey him, your headed to hell.

But we are not talking about that, we are talking about those who HAVE had faith, WHO HAVE OBEYED CHRISt (although not perfectly) yet still nto making it to heaven.


can you love others 24/7. Think before you speak. because paul at the end of his life could not do this. why do you think you can?
Do I walk in love 24/7?
I would say yes because I do not hate anybody, and do not wish any ill will on anybody either.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
I have always had the truth when it comes to sin, and the way you stated it earlier is that if you are in Christ it is not accounted against you. The problem is that even Paul says you can return to a life of willful sin, and if you do this and not repent then you will be cut off as in no salvation. And he said in 1 Corinthians you have to show self control in all things, which means not give into sin in order to receive the gift of salvation.
I just seen this ...do you want to defend this postion? You must not sin to receive the gift of salvation.... That's so contrary to the gospel that a first year bible student could tear that to pieces.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
Well that's your theory...but the bible says sin will not have dominion over you because your not under law but under grace...and that the strength of sin is the law...
And BTW, Mitspa,
as I read the Bible and in particular prophet Paul, it is clear that as a failing principle in effecting righteousness, "law" could be any system of morality, whether from the conscience of the unbeliever, Moses, the Teachings of the Earthly Jesus, or the precepts in the epistles to the Church. No set of commandments has any power to save a man (even a Christian man) from sinning. For example, coveting or lusting (Rom 7) is not just a command of Moses, but a constant sin not dispensationally defined. The desire to do contrary to God's will is always a sin. The inability of the law of save or sanctify, does not depend upon which specific code is meant.

In Romans 7 the money wrench in the Christian life is

(I was alive apart from the law once,)
but when the law came, sin revived & I died!

Then ensues: "I am carnal, sold under sin."

Then the argument continues into Rom 8:

"what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."




 
K

Kerry

Guest
Even when that guy cut you off and took your parking spot? Come on tell the truth. That finger was twitching.
 
Mar 28, 2014
4,300
31
0
Ok now lets read the bible....:)

Ro 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

The strength of sin is the law...sin will not have dominion over you BECAUSE your not under law, but under grace...
do you take this to mean the law made you sin? I that what you believe??? if the law made you sin or as you put it produce sin...then you are not to be blamed you have to blame the law...and who gave the law God ...so blame God for making you sin.... the law simply identifies sin ....people who are not in Christ are under the control of sin....and are identified as sinners by the law...People in Christ follow the spirit and are not under the law...they are identified as saints
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Do I walk in love 24/7?
I would say yes because I do not hate anybody, and do not wish any ill will on anybody either.
so then you are without sin?

Walking in love is more than just not hating anyone, or wishing ill will on them, yuo do understand this do you not?
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
And BTW, Mitspa,
as I read the Bible and in particular prophet Paul, it is clear that as a failing principle in effecting righteousness, "law" could be any system of morality, whether from the conscience of the unbeliever, Moses, the Teachings of the Earthly Jesus, or the precepts in the epistles to the Church. No set of commandments has any power to save a man (even a Christian man) from sinning. For example, coveting or lusting (Rom 7) is not just a command of Moses, but a constant sin not dispensationally defined. The desire to do contrary to God's will is always a sin. The inability of the law of save or sanctify, does not depend upon which specific code is meant.

In Romans 7 the money wrench in the Christian life is

(I was alive apart from the law once,)
but when the law came, sin revived & I died!

Then ensues: "I am carnal, sold under sin."

Then the argument continues into Rom 8:

"what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."




I agree that many religious groups add things that are not even in the law or the New testament...to salvation....
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
so then you are without sin?

Walking in love is more than just not hating anyone, or wishing ill will on them, yuo do understand this do you not?
According to his post he didn't have sin before he got saved...did not really even need to be saved really lol
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
Do I walk in love 24/7? I would say yes because I do not hate anybody, and do not wish any ill will on anybody either.
Kenneth, it appears to me that your basic problem is self-righteousness. You do not recognize your depth of depravity and need of a Savior. So how will you ever trust the Savior, since you don't need a Savior?

And he spake also this parable unto certain who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and set all others at nought: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as the rest of men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week; I give tithes of all that I get.

But the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote his breast, saying, God, be merciful to me a sinner. I say unto you, This man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be humbled; but he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

I pray that the LORD opens your eyes (as with Isaiah in Isa 6) to see yourself.
 
Last edited:
M

Mitspa

Guest
do you take this to mean the law made you sin? I that what you believe??? if the law made you sin or as you put it produce sin...then you are not to be blamed you have to blame the law...and who gave the law God ...so blame God for making you sin.... the law simply identifies sin ....people who are not in Christ are under the control of sin....and are identified as sinners by the law...People in Christ follow the spirit and are not under the law...they are identified as saints
I take it to mean what it says...that the strength of sin is the law...:)
 
C

ChristIsGod

Guest
how many times does this passage have to be posted today (this is about the 4th or 5th time that I can remember, probably even more) before people listen to the bolded highlighted words above?


news flash. Unless your perfect, with no sin, this verse says the law will condemn you!


Last I heard, Only jesus fulfilled that aspect. thus that verse condemns us all according to the law. and even without the law. (as romans 1 will also testify too)

Those verses are posted in hopes that someday you will read context, context, context - to use your reply in another thread - ie. not you pulling one verse that you consistently misinterpret. You miss the best of Paul's writings by doing so to All of his writings, I fear.

No Paul is NOT writing about those that "trust in the law" in those verses 2:5-16.

Your chosen beliefs have clouded your eyes and understanding to more than half of what Paul has written and out of those 12 verses, you both have only seen one that you have both misinterpreted because you're pulling it out of the context of that one dialogue, within that chpt.

Hm, hm, hm. That's the whole of the problem with having an opinion that blinds one to 3/4ths of the New Testament. Your belief is doing just that. You have your very limited verses that you post over and over and over again and leave actually more than 3/4ths out.

I'm saying this because I DO care and though I tire of the name calling - such as "arrogant" when I post these types of verses that commend obedience and being told that I am "boasting" though I posted Romans 8 more times than I can count, even this day to Mispa ... yet - the names and slurs will continue as long as I continue to post Sola Scriptura. I told Mispa that this morning. Even Just Sola Scriptura gets accusations and name throwing to begin.

So be it.

"I'm" not The Word of GOD and it won't be me that we'll all have to stand before to give an account of what we've done with the Word of God ..... it'll be The Word of GOD made flesh and Who said that not one word of what proceeded from the mouth of GOD will ever cease to stand and we stand or fall according to what we've done with HIM - The Word of God made flesh.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
I just seen this ...do you want to defend this postion? You must not sin to receive the gift of salvation.... That's so contrary to the gospel that a first year bible student could tear that to pieces.

Once again first of all you have to understand the difference in sin and the willful sinner as the bible does make a distinction between the two.
Paul is saying that if you can not maintain self control and give into sin again to where it becomes the master in your life again, as in it controls your actions day to day then you will not receive salvation.
Only if they are brought back in repentance and turn away from those things again will salvation be restored to them as David says in Psalm 51;


[h=1]Psalm 51:12-14
Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee. Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.[/h]
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
so then you are without sin?

Walking in love is more than just not hating anyone, or wishing ill will on them, yuo do understand this do you not?

Nobody is without sin, that would be a lie to say one is......
 
Mar 28, 2014
4,300
31
0
Who don't sin? you? what believer at some point don't commit sin? What are you trying to claim?
if we sin we know where to go and what to do...
1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Hebrews 4:15-16King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.


1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
Yes but He imputes that sin, only after it has been repented of and asked forgiveness.
If you continue to sin or return to sin which the scriptures say that a believer can do, and not repent, confess, and ask forgiveness of, that sin is your master.

Oh and kind of off topic, you do not that one of the reason Paul maybe hard to understand as Peter stated. Is that you know he did not write all of his epistles ???
If He don't impute it why would he want you to confess it? No we confess for our own conscience and to stay in a place of truth with God...God gives grace to the humble but resist the proud...we often need to go to the throne of grace and acknowledge our weakness to draw strength from Gods grace. But its not a command its a promise to help the little children get established in Gods righteosuenss...Paul NEVER taught confession for sins ...he taught we was justified by faith even when we struggled in the flesh.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
Men must realize the depth of their depravity. It is not that men just sin a little here & there, get annoyed when cut off at a parking place, etc.

Romans 1-3 clearly describes the natural man. And it is a rotten, sorry description of those who are totally depraved.

Here is some of it:

being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, hateful to God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenant-breakers, without natural affection, unmerciful: who, knowing the ordinance of God, that they that practise such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but also consent with them that practise them.

Wherefore thou art without excuse, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest dost practise the same things. And we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against them that practise such things. And reckonest thou this, O man, who judgest them that practise such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
. . .

What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we before laid to the charge both of Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin;
as it is written,
There is none righteous, no, not one;
There is none that understandeth,
There is none that seeketh after God;
They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable;
There is none that doeth good, no, not so much as one:
Their throat is an open sepulchre;
With their tongues they have used deceit:
The poison of asps is under their lips:
Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Destruction and misery are in their ways;
And the way of peace have they not known:
There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin.

But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus. Where then is the glorying? It is excluded.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
Kenneth, it appears to me that your basic problem is self-righteousness. You do not recognize your depth of depravity and need of a Savior. So how will you ever trust the Savior, since you don't need a Savior?

And he spake also this parable unto certain who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and set all others at nought: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as the rest of men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week; I give tithes of all that I get.

But the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote his breast, saying, God, be merciful to me a sinner. I say unto you, This man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be humbled; but he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

I pray that the LORD opens your eyes (as with Isaiah in Isa 6) to see yourself.

All of you who claim to be Christian, yet constantly bearing false witness against others by constantly saying they said something they did not say.

I obey our Lord Jesus Christ out of love and respect for Him for what He did for us, and I pray and hope all of you do the same.

So you and the few others can keep posting your false statements of things that others have not said, that will continue to show others your true nature. For I do not answer to other men, I answer to the Lord our God.