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the scripture does not say OT believers...it says all have sin... another one of your blatant lies...it is the same remission of sin spoken of in Acts 2 :38...God is not remitting sin that have not been committed .....he is making new creatures from that point on
[SUP]23 [/SUP]For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
[SUP]26 [/SUP]To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
[SUP]26 [/SUP]To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Sounds like double-talk to me, Kenneth.
First off, the matter of assurance is a different doctrine from "how to be saved." Assurance is partly based on works. If you are into certain gross habitual sins, you don't have grounds for assurance; since scripture says,
"Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins."
You guys don't seem to be able to get Ephesians 2 straight:
God gives grace, man exerts faith leading to salvation (no works).
Salvation leads to works (which has a part in assurance).
I am at a loss as to how you go on & on virtually denying that salvation & eternal life are present possessions of Christians, as if salvation were the outcome of some eschatological judgment. Salvation is first of all a rebirth in which a man's nature is changed permanently -- old things pass away, and all becomes new. It includes eternal life at the moment of belief. Try bathing your laundry & self in the following:
Instant Salvation in Past Tense
“Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” (Luke 7:50)
th Zacchaeus.
Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham.” (Luke 19:9)
Evidence of Zacc's instant salvation is found in his instant statement:
But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.” (Luke 19:8)
Cornelius was instantly saved when he trusted the Lord Jesus, and no water baptism was needed nor joining any Eastern or Western organization. (see Acts 10:43-48). Compare this to what Peter said in Acts 15:11: We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are. (Acts 15:11)
Consider Eph 2:5 [God] made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
Is there any hint of an extended process between dead & alive? Salvation is a change from death to life, with no intermediate zombie state. 2 Cor 5: Old things are passed away, behold all has become new. It is all or nothing here.
In addressing Tim on common salvation, prophet Paul remarks to Tim how the Christian's salvation is past. There is no future to transpire before Paul and Tim should call themselves saved.
[the Lord God] who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, - 2 Tim 1:9
Again, prophet Paul wrote in Titus the truth that we presently regard ourselves as saved in the past.
he [God] saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5)
The future continued salvation state after belief is guaranteed by the past justification by the blood of the Lord Jesus.
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! (Rom 5:9) Now how is anyone going to be half-way justified? You either are or you are not. The transition must be instante.
Instant Salvation Is Realized in Present Time
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes [present tense] him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 John 5:12,13)
There is a clear dichotomy: You either have or have not the Son of God with eternal life. The change must be instantaneous. Eternal life is a present possession for the believer, not just a future reward.
Salvation is clearly presented as a present reality:
Men are divided clearly into two groups, believers and non-believers, the saved & the perishing.
he who believes has everlasting life. (John 6:47)
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (1 Cor 1:18)
For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing. (2 Cor 2:15)
It is clear the whosoever believes in Him has everlasting life and does not come into condemnation. This salvation must be instantaneous in that it is a new birth, a recreation and only depends upon trusting the SAvior (not the chance-giver). One either is a saint or an ain't. The moment a non-believer becomes a believer, he must be saved, for scripture guarantees salvation to the believer. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved. It is clear that the Philippian jailer was at once saved, for he believed.
First off, the matter of assurance is a different doctrine from "how to be saved." Assurance is partly based on works. If you are into certain gross habitual sins, you don't have grounds for assurance; since scripture says,
"Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins."
You guys don't seem to be able to get Ephesians 2 straight:
God gives grace, man exerts faith leading to salvation (no works).
Salvation leads to works (which has a part in assurance).
I am at a loss as to how you go on & on virtually denying that salvation & eternal life are present possessions of Christians, as if salvation were the outcome of some eschatological judgment. Salvation is first of all a rebirth in which a man's nature is changed permanently -- old things pass away, and all becomes new. It includes eternal life at the moment of belief. Try bathing your laundry & self in the following:
Instant Salvation in Past Tense
“Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” (Luke 7:50)
th Zacchaeus.
Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham.” (Luke 19:9)
Evidence of Zacc's instant salvation is found in his instant statement:
But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.” (Luke 19:8)
Cornelius was instantly saved when he trusted the Lord Jesus, and no water baptism was needed nor joining any Eastern or Western organization. (see Acts 10:43-48). Compare this to what Peter said in Acts 15:11: We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are. (Acts 15:11)
Consider Eph 2:5 [God] made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
Is there any hint of an extended process between dead & alive? Salvation is a change from death to life, with no intermediate zombie state. 2 Cor 5: Old things are passed away, behold all has become new. It is all or nothing here.
In addressing Tim on common salvation, prophet Paul remarks to Tim how the Christian's salvation is past. There is no future to transpire before Paul and Tim should call themselves saved.
[the Lord God] who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, - 2 Tim 1:9
Again, prophet Paul wrote in Titus the truth that we presently regard ourselves as saved in the past.
he [God] saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5)
The future continued salvation state after belief is guaranteed by the past justification by the blood of the Lord Jesus.
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! (Rom 5:9) Now how is anyone going to be half-way justified? You either are or you are not. The transition must be instante.
Instant Salvation Is Realized in Present Time
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes [present tense] him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 John 5:12,13)
There is a clear dichotomy: You either have or have not the Son of God with eternal life. The change must be instantaneous. Eternal life is a present possession for the believer, not just a future reward.
Salvation is clearly presented as a present reality:
Men are divided clearly into two groups, believers and non-believers, the saved & the perishing.
he who believes has everlasting life. (John 6:47)
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (1 Cor 1:18)
For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing. (2 Cor 2:15)
It is clear the whosoever believes in Him has everlasting life and does not come into condemnation. This salvation must be instantaneous in that it is a new birth, a recreation and only depends upon trusting the SAvior (not the chance-giver). One either is a saint or an ain't. The moment a non-believer becomes a believer, he must be saved, for scripture guarantees salvation to the believer. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved. It is clear that the Philippian jailer was at once saved, for he believed.
K
Am I understanding you right?
Are you really saying that a believer in Christ can continue to sin all they want and not lose salvation?
If that is what you are saying then you have been sadly miss taught, as Paul himself warns believers of returning to willful sin. There would be no need to warn others if they still have eternal life.
You do have to repent and ask forgiveness of it to be forgiven and have it covered by His blood.
Are you really saying that a believer in Christ can continue to sin all they want and not lose salvation?
If that is what you are saying then you have been sadly miss taught, as Paul himself warns believers of returning to willful sin. There would be no need to warn others if they still have eternal life.
You do have to repent and ask forgiveness of it to be forgiven and have it covered by His blood.
E
So a child of God will not do the will of God? Your joking right?
That does not refute that eternal life is eternal and forever, it says those who are children of God, who does the will of God will enter the king.
Here we go back to the law..
God still requires perfection. for unless you perfectly obey him in all things, you are a sinner, and have not done what he demands.
.
So this proves that eternal life is not forever?
It says whoever does not love God will not obey him. Let me guess, You now going to say a person can not love God, not have faith in God. never obey him, and lost salvation how?
M
Who want s to continue in sin? I don't know those kinds of Christians...but the law is what produces lust and the desire to sin...maybe thats why sin seems to appeal to you and not to me? I also explained that God has made clear that those who walk in the flesh will suffer in the flesh ...and will answer to Him for what they have done in the body...but does not judge the believer by the law of Moses. and again willful sin is those who turn back to the law..
and again I ask what standard are using to judge this sin your so worried about others commiting?
and again I ask what standard are using to judge this sin your so worried about others commiting?
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E
we already know you do not know how to read.
So we will post it again, for ALL to see how you twist the word of God.
Romans 3:25
whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
forbearance - ἀνοχή, ἡ, (ἀνέχω) a holding back, stopping, esp. of hostilities: pl., like Lat. induciae, an armistice, truce, Xen.
II. (ἀνέχομαι) forbearance, N.T.
Liddell, H. G. (1996). A lexicon: Abridged from Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English lexicon (p. 74). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.
so tell us, What does God mean when he said he held back his wrath, because of the sin previously commited. And it not be speaking of sin before the cross.. Is that not what the law did?
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
and now you see context. Which destroyes your faulty theory.
The present time was immediately after the cross.
the time before hand was the time before the cross.
Has nothing to do with some moment in time 2000 years later when I had faith in Christ.
K
All sin is enmity to God if you believe that you can continue in sin without repenting and confessing it/asking forgiveness.
This is the act of the carnal mind that believes they can commit sin, and not repent or ask forgiveness of them.
Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
[h=1]Psalm 51:12-14
Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee. Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.[/h]
This is the act of the carnal mind that believes they can commit sin, and not repent or ask forgiveness of them.
Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
[h=1]Psalm 51:12-14
Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee. Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.[/h]
you are saying one can abide in Christ with sin??? one can sin against Christ and still be in Christ....?? then why did he remit our sins in the first place....he should have taken us in with all our sins that way if we sin it makes no difference...can you see the rubbish you are spewing....
God hates even the appearance of evil...
1 Thessalonians 5:21-23King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Abstain from all appearance of evil.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
God hates even the appearance of evil...
1 Thessalonians 5:21-23King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Abstain from all appearance of evil.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
K
The law does not produce lust and desire to sin. The law was placed to show us our own sinful nature to lead us to Christ.
The law was our tutor, and now that Christ has come we no longer need that tutor because we should no what sin is and how not to walk in them.
To walk in love instead, when walking in love you obey all that the Lord said.
If you don't obey what the Lord said then you don't have love for Him, and in turn do not have salvation for sin of unbelief.
C
1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1Co 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a "castaway". = G96
G96
adokimos
ad-ok'-ee-mos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1384; unapproved, that is, rejected; by implication worthless (literally or morally): - castaway, rejected, reprobate.
-------------------------------------------------------------
G96
ἀδόκιμος
adokimos
Total KJV Occurrences: 8
reprobate, 3
Rom_1:28, 2Ti_3:8, Tit_1:16
reprobates, 3
2Co_13:5-7 (3)
castaway, 1
1Co_9:27
rejected, 1
Heb_6:8
1Co 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a "castaway". = G96
G96
adokimos
ad-ok'-ee-mos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1384; unapproved, that is, rejected; by implication worthless (literally or morally): - castaway, rejected, reprobate.
-------------------------------------------------------------
G96
ἀδόκιμος
adokimos
Total KJV Occurrences: 8
reprobate, 3
Rom_1:28, 2Ti_3:8, Tit_1:16
reprobates, 3
2Co_13:5-7 (3)
castaway, 1
1Co_9:27
rejected, 1
Heb_6:8
M
Ok now lets read the bible....
Ro 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
The strength of sin is the law...sin will not have dominion over you BECAUSE your not under law, but under grace...
Ro 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
The strength of sin is the law...sin will not have dominion over you BECAUSE your not under law, but under grace...
K
Ok now lets read the bible....
Ro 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
The strength of sin is the law...sin will not have dominion over you BECAUSE your not under law, but under grace...
Ro 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
The strength of sin is the law...sin will not have dominion over you BECAUSE your not under law, but under grace...
I do read the bible and once again you are misreading the context that Paul is using here, his context is that the law showed exactly what our sins were and. So they brought to light what was in the dark.
[h=1]Galatians 3:22-27
But the Scripture has shut up [a]everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a [b]tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.[/h]