THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

[Sophia]

you are saying one can be saved in ignorance.... in the broad road
Romans 2:13-15King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP](For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another


Acts 17:29-31King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

[SUP]31 [/SUP]Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.





it is the person responsibility to follow the spirit
Romans 8:4
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


again it is the person's responsibility to follow the spirit
Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

where does scripture say the Spirit produces lawfulness in the believer?...believers are to follow the Spirit...Jesus said..... John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.



This is truth...
Galatians 5:22-24King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

According to your first point, a person with mental handicap cannot be saved, nor a child.

 

[Brainfreeze]

"Lord when you come into your Kingdom remember me" Christ replied " today you will with Me in Paradise". They guy was a thief.

Yes, He was sincere and went out with Christ.. On his final thought of repenting and then humility with Christ.. His reward is in heaven, I wouldn't preach death bed confessions though.. He comes like a thief .. We all don't make it to a death bed Kerry, we do all end up in a morgue

 

[newbirth]

According to your first point, a person with mental handicap cannot be saved, nor a child.

now you are wrestling with scripture.....you have to take it up with Paul...the deaf can see/read or sign....the blind can hear....Jesus said suffer the children to come unto me....God said his word will be preached throughout the earth to all men

 

[Kerry]

Yes, He was sincere and went out with Christ.. On his final thought of repenting and then humility with Christ.. His reward is in heaven, I wouldn't preach death bed confessions though.. He comes like a thief .. We all don't make it to a death bed Kerry, we do all end up in a morgue

I agree we should not, we should preach the three women which ran out of oil while waiting. The point I'm making is where is the law. Faith in Christ nulls the law so to speak. I have already given evidence to that fact.

Here is the problem, If I place my faith in keeping law, what have I accomplished? No matter what good I do it is not acceptable by God. No man is good no not one. So what must I do to be saved? The only thing I can do is place my faith in the work of the cross, meaning Christ and Him crucified. There is nothing else I can do.

Yes I try to live my life according to His word, However, the only way I can that is by placing my faith in the work of Christ and not my own. Obeying and living according to God's word is the result of my faith in Christ and not the means. By placing my faith in Christ and the cross, Gives the Holy Spirit the legality to work in me and through me and not my own works. But as the Holy Spirit works in me and through me. If I place my faith in law keeping, which is my works then I fail. Because the Holy Spirit will only work in me and through if my faith is in the Cross.

By placing faith in my works (the law) I have proclaimed that I do not need the cross, I can do it own my own. Then the Holy Spirit doe's not have the legality to work in me and through gto produce good fruit.

Therefore it is not law, though the law is good. But it is my faith in the work of the cross that allows the Holy Spirit to work in me and through me to produce good fruit.

AsI have said and as God has said, It is not by might ( human) nor by power (human) but by My Spirit (God) saith the Lord.

The only thing we can do is to place our faith in the work of the cross and nothing else.

 

[Kerry]

sorry for all the typo's I was going fast and I'm not a typist

 

[Reborn]

You don't know me from Adam brother, and if your going to jump into conversations, I would hope you don't arrogantly just post without reading what's being discussed.. not turning the conversation to mush.. Now I'm attacking you ? Your name is reborn, but your saying to be reborn in the Spirit is a tradition of men ? Correct me if I'm wrong.. and by the way this whole paragraph is you attacking and whining, he just wants to be herd, how clever, I don't read your stuff, ...I don't think this holds any fruit, do you ?

Open forum and thread, last I checked?
I was answering Kerry's story..no need for context in my post to him. What I stated was the truth, my guess that's what struck a nerve with you?

I understand that you want to be heard my man, that is APPARENT to anybody who skims your posts.

I've learned by simply checking anybody's "Rep Power" to the number of posts by them...that should give you a basic idea of who just rambles? Basically...sometimes less is more my man.

I back what I say, on this and the other post I wrote you in your other thread, ...on the fact you generally talk just to talk brother. I've seen you dig into some people for no reason. Remember-- Not all are called to preach.

I have no problem with anyone who's posted on this thread, nor you, ...but you DID attack in both your posts to me, ......not realizing YOU are the one who didn't read my post right/or in it's right context.

Useless arguing any further, and I truly apologize to the OP.
I know your style BF.....get's old and not worth giving another response to.

 

[Kerry]

Open forum and thread, last I checked?
I was answering Kerry's story..no need for context in my post to him. What I stated was the truth, my guess that's what struck a nerve with you?

I understand that you want to be heard my man, that is APPARENT to anybody who skims your posts.

I've learned by simply checking anybody's "Rep Power" to the number of posts by them...that should give you a basic idea of who just rambles? Basically...sometimes less is more my man.

I back what I say, on this and the other post I wrote you in your other thread, ...on the fact you generally talk just to talk brother. I've seen you dig into some people for no reason. Remember-- Not all are called to preach.

I have no problem with anyone who's posted on this thread, nor you, ...but you DID attack in both your posts to me, ......not realizing YOU are the one who didn't read my post right/or in it's right context.

Useless arguing any further, and I truly apologize to the OP.
I know your style BF.....get's old and not worth giving another response to.

Easy, easy drink some tea and pray and calm down. We are in the wolves den and just be easy. Iknow it;s hard and I have let loose on people many times and then regretted it. Not scolding you as who am I to scold, just giving advice and attempting to help. Amen

 

[Sophia]

now you are wrestling with scripture.....you have to take it up with Paul...the deaf can see/read or sign....the blind can hear....Jesus said suffer the children to come unto me....God said his word will be preached throughout the earth to all men

Far from it. I am trying to understand how you came to your conclusions regarding the Scripture, so that I can explain to you how you are in a horrible error. The Scripture is clear, but your understanding is not in line with the Spirit, but the works of flesh. The verses you stated contradict your premise entirely.

We don't have to stand in the valleys of "cheap grace" and "legalism", because there is a mountaintop between them. Stand on it, as it is the Word of God.
Get out of the valley. It is the Shadows of what Christ has done, fulfilled by Him; and it is Death, as it condemns all those who remain within it. The very valley of shadow and death.
The other side is also Death, as it is pride and laziness. You know this, and hate it; but you seem to hate it more than you love the Mountain.

 

[Kerry]

Far from it. I am trying to understand how you came to your conclusions regarding the Scripture, so that I can explain to you how you are in a horrible error. The Scripture is clear, but your understanding is not in line with the Spirit, but the works of flesh. The verses you stated contradict your premise entirely.

We don't have to stand in the valleys of "cheap grace" and "legalism", because there is a mountaintop between them. Stand on it, as it is the Word of God.
Get out of the valley. It is the Shadows of what Christ has done, fulfilled by Him; and it is Death, as it condemns all those who lean upon it. The very valley of shadow and death.
The other side is also Death, as it is pride and laziness. You know this, and hate it; but you seem to hate it more than you love the Mountain.

UUMMM I know it's late but you are replying and arguing with your own post. Jesus can help with that.

 

[Sophia]

UUMMM I know it's late but you are replying and arguing with your own post. Jesus can help with that.

It's a posting glitch. Look at who you responded to, lol.

 

[Kerry]

Whew thank God, I thought I was dealing with a schitzo and it would'nt be the first time.

 

[Kerry]

Man I can't spell, and I can't even spell mispelt. LOL

 

[Mitspa]

2Co 3:6 ¶ Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Ministration of DEATH, written and engraved on stones ...only the Ten Commandments was written and engraved on stones. That has passed away and we now serve God. not according to the "letter" but according to the "Spirit"

2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.


There is a spiritual blindness that comes with being under the law. A person under law cannot understand the grace of God and the power of liberty. What the devil knows if he can put a group under the law he can deceive and control them. he can take their money and make them believe that they need some man or group of men to represent them before God...he can control a person under law and make them believe almost anything...Like the holy spirit is in a can or you have to say 20 hail marys. If you look at any false group or any group that claims to be Christian that are in great error, you will see that some blinding form of legalism has been place upon the people of that group...such as the SDA, RCC, LDS etc...

 

[Karraster]

Silly me, I thought this debate was to "choose" between the instructions of our Creator, or His grace only. Now you throw in "hail Mary"? Why not include no spitting on the sidewalk? That's a man made law too.

 

[Mitspa]

Silly me, I thought this debate was to "choose" between the instructions of our Creator, or His grace only. Now you throw in "hail Mary"? Why not include no spitting on the sidewalk? That's a man made law too.

Well the context of my last post was that the law and legalism in general blinds people from seeing the truth of the gospel, that you can look at any group that misleads people and promotes clear error and what you will find is forms of legalism to promote a false system that is contrary to the true grace of God. We often wonder why cant the people in these groups see that they are being mislead? My point is that they have been blinded and need to hear and believe the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Chopper]

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Yahushua: worship YHWH: for the testimony of Yahushua is the spirit of prophecy.

Rev 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship YHWH.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 

[Mitspa]

Only those who die to the law ..and walk in the Spirit in love, keep the commandments of God....Those under the law of Moses are not keeping Gods law and in fact are in rebellion against God and the Cross of Christ.

One cant just read John and forget the gospel and how the truth works...in fact John makes clear the commandments are to believe and to love.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sure our faith should endure ... but the law is not of faith and those who turn from grace to law have denied the faith.

Amen.

What is our faith in anyway?

the letter of the law (which condemns)

or the promise and grace of Christ, which causes one to live?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

A person that reads the Law and seeks it's true intent is following the Spirit of the Law.

A person that reads the Law and seeks to circumvent it, is in the letter.

Mattithyah 15:2-3, "Why do Your disciples transgress the traditions of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat. But He answered, and said to them: And why do you transgress the Laws of Yahweh by your traditions?"

Mattithyah 15:8-9, "These people draw near to Me with their mouth and honor Me with their lips, but have removed their hearts far from Me. But in vain they do worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men."

Mattithyah 5:19, "Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh."

Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

So. Moses said whoever does not confirm and obey EVERY letter of this law is cursed.

Do you realise this yet. or are you still trying to obey what can not possibly be obeyed?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

A amazing pair of verses IMO;

"To the Law and to the testimony"

Isayah 8:20, "To the Law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."

In Isayah and in the final message, Revelation the Law and the Testimony are mentioned.

In the OT; Isayah 8:20, "To the Law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

In the NT; Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."

So I have 2 questions:


(If they speak not according to this word, To the Law and to the testimony) IS THERE LIGHT IN THEM?

Does the seed that satan hates keep the Laws of Yahweh and have faith in Yahshua both or just one?

Again, the question is, do they keep them according to the demand in which moses stated they MUST keep them, for failure to do such will bring a curse?

Or do they keep them, as paul said in romans 8.

3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.