2 Kinds Of Faith

[newbirth]

As for John's baptism, that pointed to the eternal baptism John said must come from Jesus, the Christ. John's water baptism was but a sign of the better to come from Jesus. His was pre-New Covenant. Once the New came, the old passed away. Seek only that Spirit baptism of Christ. It is the only baptism accepted by God.

so you are saying jesus never told his disciples to go and baptise.....Peter lied on the day of pentecost...

 

[VCO]

so you are saying jesus never told his disciples to go and baptise.....Peter lied on the day of pentecost...

Yes Jesus did, and HE told them to baptize in the NAME singular.

And that singular NAME is "the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

 

[newbirth]

Yes Jesus did, and HE told them to baptize in the NAME singular.

And that singular NAME is "the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

then take it up with...the one who wrote this....he is saying Christ said to do something God does not accept...or do something we cannot do..

As for John's baptism, that pointed to the eternal baptism John said must come from Jesus, the Christ. John's water baptism was but a sign of the better to come from Jesus. His was pre-New Covenant. Once the New came, the old passed away. Seek only that Spirit baptism of Christ. It is the only baptism accepted by God.

 

[SeaBass]

As to these statements of yours above see post #74 where i clearly stated;

My post #96 was in response to the link you posted:

What are the five solas?

....which is full of errors.

That's why i put that out here about sola fide,....... it was just for you Seabass, to bring clarity on the "faith alone" thing, it's another biblical based sola that came from the time of Reformation (but still applicable now, however faith without works is dead, "Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance", get it?) and was related to "the alignment of new evangelicals with apostasy". A meatier topic if you will, but it was not about faith vs works, as that particular thread had more to do with biblical inerrancy, the "Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy", the RCC's influence in changing faith to a living faith and how that has influenced major changes in Western Christianity.

You blindly picked through Richard's statements without any clue as to what the thread was about (just like you have attempted to do here and on several other threads at CC,why you haven't been banned here yet?, escapes my understanding ) and it really shows like today, that you do not produce fruits of the Spirit like brotherly love and patience, but instead you bare constant briars and thorns, showing to all here the spirit of division and of error . What a miserable state to be in, it isn't easy kicking against the pricks eh Seabass?

Should people be banned for posting such judgmentalism as you have here?

Furthermore I did post about two kinds of faith as in the OP, about the faith the devils have compared to a saving faith which was all in harmony with the OP.

 

[VCO]

My post #96 was in response to the link you posted:

What are the five solas?

....which is full of errors.



Should people be banned for posting such judgmentalism as you have here?

Furthermore I did post about two kinds of faith as in the OP, about the faith the devils have compared to a saving faith which was all in harmony with the OP.

Speaking of ERRORS, I know that I have pointed this out, but that Avatar picture you use, is not a Sea Bass. Here is a picture of a small Sea Bass:

And here is a picture of a Big Sea Bass:

Known as black sea bass, these animals can grow to enormous size. A mature adult can reach over seven-feet long, weigh up to 550 pounds and live at least 75 years.

In case you are trying to pass that picture off as a White Sea Bass, let expose that as an untruth too, by posting a picture of what they really look like:

And here is the Giant White Sea Bass:

Here is a Chilean Sea Bass:

Here is a Japanese Sea Bass:

And here is a Striped Sea Bass:

And here is the Spotted Giant Sea Bass:

But if you want to call that Picture you use as an Avatar, a Sea Bass, you can;
BUT we know it is NOT THE TRUTH. We also know that you frequently disagree with
the teachings that we are trying to share and encourage other with, because you
have told us on many occasions that you disagree with Mainline Christian Theology.


><>t<><

What rules can get you banned, from this site. Our host has the plainly posted them on this page:
http://christianchat.com/rules.php

I here are a few specific rules, but remember only the host or one of his hand picked moderators can determine who crossed the line. And they do not accept volunteers to be Moderators, they chosen by invitation only, and no I am not one.

1. Nothing anti-Christian, or inappropriate for a Christian chat room or forum.

Please do not try to register any blasphemous or offensive nicknames. Also please do not engage in any blasphemous, profane, or improper talk, or any talk that is offensive to our Christian community.

Also, please don't post any inappropriate links . . . links to anti-Christian sites, sites with inappropriate content, sites promoting other religions, cults, or doctrines contrary to the Bible.

2. No conduct that is offensive or counterproductive to fellowship.
We like to welcome all to Christian Chat, but if anyone is not here for fellowship (or for wanting to know about Christianity), but simply for disrupting fellowship, offending people, whatever, then that person is not welcome.


><>t<><

KNOW: What the rest of the rules are, as there is a whole page of them. Everyone should read those Rules, and that link is posted on the second line of my post above.

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

Should people be banned for posting such judgmentalism as you have here?

Furthermore I did post about two kinds of faith as in the OP, about the faith the devils have compared to a saving faith which was all in harmony with the OP.

Seabass, i appreciated your comments about the op when you posted them, and still appreciate you adding to the conversation and would readily embrace fellowship with you on things we can find common ground on, but your seemingly endless division (4000+times and counting?) and frowardness with most of us here often makes your presence a blight in our pursuit of fellowship and communion with each other. Repent of this bro, we all can find common ground as believers in Jesus Christ; and bare the fruits meet for repentance and of brotherly love as God instructed all of us through His Word to have.

Differences will come up, we are all different people, at different stages of the race, with different levels of development. One shoe doesn't fit all at every stage. It would be a genuine blessing if we all truly could indeed have fellowship and communion with each other here without being attacked for saying anything regarding saving faith when not accompanied by a particular work at the point of Grace (John 3:8). How many more fine testimonies of God's Mercy,Love,Forgiveness and Saving Grace that comes from faith in Jesus Christ and His blood will be trampled under foot in an attempt to prove a point? If we repent of this error of division and walk in love, how many more would embrace us and reflect that love back at us?

Moving forward,.......
I'm turning the page and looking forward to a future based on a common respect and built out of brotherly love with you and all our other brothers and sisters here in Christ and i hope you will do the same.

 

[mailmandan]

The word translated faith is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and is defined as follows: #4102; pistis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity. The word translated believe is from the greek word pisteuō which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ)."

The word "believe" can describe mere mental assent belief, as in (James 2:19) or also include trust and reliance in Christ for salvation, as in (Acts 16:31). In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons also believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

I believe "mental assent" have faith that George Washington existed and I also believe in the historical facts about George Washington, but I do not have faith in him/am not trusting in Him to save my soul. That is the huge difference! Saving belief/faith is more than just an "intellectual acknowledgment" to the existence and historical facts about Christ. Saving belief/faith trusts exclusively in Christ's finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation. Good works which follow are the fruit, but not the root of salvation.

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

real faith="reliance upon Christ for salvation".......
belief (mental assessment & "intellectual acknowledgment")= huge difference compared to real faith that has "reliance upon Christ for salvation".

Thank you for adding to the conversation brother mailmandan.
Looking back, if the op would have been reworded to natural faith vs supernatural faith with better verses as examples; it would have better reflected what i wanted to discuss here.

Instead of the poor examples that were given, (belief of a devil being used as an example of natural faith, and Ephesians 4:5 as an example of supernatural faith), it might have been better to use the verses seen in Matthew 16:2-3 (natural faith) and Ephesians 2:8 (supernatural faith). i learned a lot from this mistake and more about different perspectives on faith in general. So i count this as a beneficial and edifying learning experience. Thanks again for your input here brother mailmandan

 

[VCO]

real faith="reliance upon Christ for salvation".......
belief (mental assessment & "intellectual acknowledgment")= huge difference compared to real faith that has "reliance upon Christ for salvation".

Thank you for adding to the conversation brother mailmandan.
Looking back, if the op would have been reworded to natural faith vs supernatural faith with better verses as examples; it would have better reflected what i wanted to discuss here.

Instead of the poor examples that were given, (belief of a devil being used as an example of natural faith, and Ephesians 4:5 as an example of supernatural faith), it might have been better to use the verses seen in Matthew 16:2-3 (natural faith) and Ephesians 2:8 (supernatural faith). i learned a lot from this mistake and more about different perspectives on faith in general. So i count this as a beneficial and edifying learning experience. Thanks again for your input here brother mailmandan

><>t<><

That is what discipleship is all about, we learn from each other, as well as the Bible itself, and OF COURSE THE HOLY SPIRIT.

 

[VCO]

><>t<><


I found an interesting article explaning of faith of demons compared to genuine saving faith, by a Catholic theologian Stephen Beale, that points out that genuine faith is for linked to LOVE FOR GOD, whereas the faith of demons has NO LOVE FOR GOD.

James’ clear insistence on the necessity of ‘works’ for faith is itself quite powerful. Just in case readers miss the message in these unequivocal words, James reinforces them with an analogy sure to jolt even the most complacent Christian out of his spiritual slumber: You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. The idea that the demons have some faith is not unique to James. It surfaces in the gospels as well. When Jesus comes across two demon-possessed men in Matthew 8, the demons cry out to Him, “What have you to do with us, Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the appointed time?” (Matthew 8:28). The same episode—with a similar address from the demons—is also reported in Mark 5 and Luke 8.

But in James 2 we are forced to directly confront the question of whether the demons have faith—and, if so, what that says about our faith.

There’s no question this is an extremely difficult text to interpret. It’s a hermeneutical minefield for both Catholic and Protestant interpreters. Protestant commentators often seek to resolve their obvious discomfort with this discussion about faith and works—particularly the use of the phrase faith alone in verse 24—by building a exegetical wall of separation between the faith of the demons and our faith. One faith is ‘good’ in some way while the other is taken to be defective and dead—that is the faith of the demons. But this is to read a distinction into the text that simply is not there.

And yet, this text isn’t much easier for Catholic readers. The symbiotic relationship between faith and works is one that we understand intuitively. But the idea that demons have faith that is somehow analogous to ours is no less unsettling for Catholics than it is for Protestants. Surely there must be some difference between the faith of Christians and that of the demons? But how do we distinguish between the two without committing hermeneutical hara-kiri?

One of the best solutions to this problem is offered by noted Catholic apologist Jimmy Akin, who, in an exhaustive analysis of this text, shows that all attempts to differentiate between the faith of demons and that of Christians ultimately must fail. Attempts to show James is talking about a ‘dead faith’ or a ‘false faith’ render the text utterly absurd when those phrases are substituted for the word ‘faith’ in the text, as Akin painstakingly demonstrates. (For an exhaustive treatment of what this chapter says about the theology of faith, works, and justification, read Akin’s analysis here.)

Akin’s solution: the faith that is meant is faith in the sense of ‘intellectual assent.’ Faith in this sense is common to both the demons and the Christians (but under drastically different circumstances). The message of James is that “one is not saved by intellectual assent alone,” according to Akin.

This understanding of faith is in keeping with St. Thomas Aquinas’ own conclusions in the Summa Theologica, where he also raises the same question as to whether the demons have faith. The Angelic Doctor answers in the affirmative—albeit in a very limited sense. For both the true believers and the demons, faith occurs when the will moves the intellect to assent to the truth.

But the circumstances for the two are not the same. The will of the believer moves his intellect because his will is drawn to the good. The demons, on the other hand, are “in a way, compelled to believe, by the evidence of signs, and so their will deserves no praise for their belief,” according to Aquinas. The demons remain fixated on the signs, never fully apprehending the deeper truths they signify, Aquinas writes. So, the demons may recognize that the teachings of the Church are from God, but they “do not see” the things the Church actually teaches—such as the nature of the triune godhead.

Aquinas elaborates further on the differing circumstances between the two:

Faith, which is a gift of grace, inclines man to believe, by giving him a certain affection for the good, even when that faith is lifeless. Consequently, the faith which the demons have is not a gift of grace. Rather are they compelled to believe through their natural intellectual acumen.


​

What is thus common to both the demons and the believers is limited to faith in the sense of intellectual assent. With this understanding in mind, James 2 makes sense, without reading so many hidden distinctions into the text that one does violence to its plain meaning.

Aquinas also helps us to understand that the fundamental differences between the two—the demons and the Christian believer—is rooted in the will. Our will and the will of the spirits are both free. But unlike human beings, the will of the spirits is not mutable: their first choice is their last one. Thus, because the will of the demons is already hardened against God, their faith is “displeasing to them, so that their malice is by no means diminished by their belief,” according to Aquinas. For the believers, on the other hand, the will is opening itself up to God, so the act of faith is their first response towards God’s invitation to love.

This emphasis on the will is crucial because the will is also the seat of love, according to Aquinas. In Catholic theology, faith and love are both essential for salvation. (This is in contrast to Reformation theology, which ultimately divorces the two. For more on that see my previous article here.) The Catholic view is reflected not only in James 2, but also in many of the other New Testament epistles. One particularly potent text is Galatians 5:6—For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love. In context, St. Paul is talking about justification—the technical theological term for salvation (to simplify a bit). He is scolding those who would try to merit salvation on their own by performing works under the Old Testament law (like circumcision).

The path to salvation, according to St. Paul, instead begins at faith. But it doesn’t stop there. Instead, it is “faith working through love” that “counts for something.” It is good works, performed not under the law, on our own, but good works (or “acts of love”) done through grace that contribute towards our salvation (or “justification”). James says much the same thing in the above excerpt in verse 22, in reference to the faith of Abraham: You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.

In Galatians 5:6, St. Paul uses a loaded word to describe the relationship between faith and love. In English translations this becomes “working.” But a peek at the original Greek tells us much more than the English lets on.

In Greek, the operative word is energoumenē. This word is a combination of energéō, meaning engaged in, and ergon, meaning work. This addition of the verb to workintensifies it: faith is not simply “working through” love. It is deeply and inextricably engaging in the work of love. One dictionary defines energéō as “working in a situation which brings it from one stage … to the next.” The dictionary compares this to an “electrical current energizing a wire, bringing it to a shining light bulb.” (This is, after all, the word from which we get energy.)

We can thus think of the relationship between faith and love as like that of electricity and a light bulb. A light bulb can no more serve its intended function—providing illumination—than our faith can function without love. It is love that ‘electrifies’ our love, allowing us to be a light and a witness to others. As Christ said, “You are the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket; it is set on a lampstand, where it gives light to all in the house.”

This is the message of James 2: love is indispensable to faith. Faith that doesn’t work in love would be about as useful as a lamp that is never plugged into an electrical socket. James is even blunter than this: “So also faith, of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.” The words of James still challenge us today. Does our faith work through love? Or, has our faith withered away to nothing more than an intellectual assent—the faith of the demons?
The Faith of the Demons

 

[newbirth]

><>t<><


I found an interesting article explaning of faith of demons compared to genuine saving faith, by a Catholic theologian Stephen Beale, that points out that genuine faith is for linked to LOVE FOR GOD, whereas the faith of demons has NO LOVE FOR GOD.

men go to great lengths to explain what is already explained...demons believe but do not the works of God....that is faith without works....men who want to be saved by grace through faith without works are on the same level as the demons.....faith as a mustard seed grows when it is planted...not when it remains in one's pocket(mind)

 

[SeaBass]

But if you want to call that Picture you use as an Avatar, a Sea Bass, you can;
BUT we know it is NOT THE TRUTH. We also know that you frequently disagree with
the teachings that we are trying to share and encourage other with, because you
have told us on many occasions that you disagree with Mainline Christian Theology.


><>t<><

What rules can get you banned, from this site. Our host has the plainly posted them on this page:
http://christianchat.com/rules.php

I here are a few specific rules, but remember only the host or one of his hand picked moderators can determine who crossed the line. And they do not accept volunteers to be Moderators, they chosen by invitation only, and no I am not one.

1. Nothing anti-Christian, or inappropriate for a Christian chat room or forum.

Please do not try to register any blasphemous or offensive nicknames. Also please do not engage in any blasphemous, profane, or improper talk, or any talk that is offensive to our Christian community.Also, please don't post any inappropriate links . . . links to anti-Christian sites, sites with inappropriate content, sites promoting other religions, cults, or doctrines contrary to the Bible.

2. No conduct that is offensive or counterproductive to fellowship.
We like to welcome all to Christian Chat, but if anyone is not here for fellowship (or for wanting to know about Christianity), but simply for disrupting fellowship, offending people, whatever, then that person is not welcome.


><>t<><

KNOW: What the rest of the rules are, as there is a whole page of them. Everyone should read those Rules, and that link is posted on the second line of my post above.

Look back at post 97 where GracethroughfaithinChrist wanted me banned when I did not break any rule you posted here. GracethroughfaithinChrist post's was just a judgmental rant against me, nothing more. I have those in another thread want me banned because I do not blindly, ignorantly go along with their opinion. There are others here constantly making personal attacks against me, calling me names. Now I am attacked over my avatar picture.
I am here to have reasonable discussion, debate. Some people do not need to be on debate discussion boards for they "lose it" when their false idea gets exposed by the truth andthen they no longer have anything worthwhile to add to the debate/discussion other than attacks.

 

[SeaBass]

Seabass, i appreciated your comments about the op when you posted them, and still appreciate you adding to the conversation and would readily embrace fellowship with you on things we can find common ground on, but your seemingly endless division (4000+times and counting?) and frowardness with most of us here often makes your presence a blight in our pursuit of fellowship and communion with each other. Repent of this bro, we all can find common ground as believers in Jesus Christ; and bare the fruits meet for repentance and of brotherly love as God instructed all of us through His Word to have.

Differences will come up, we are all different people, at different stages of the race, with different levels of development. One shoe doesn't fit all at every stage. It would be a genuine blessing if we all truly could indeed have fellowship and communion with each other here without being attacked for saying anything regarding saving faith when not accompanied by a particular work at the point of Grace (John 3:8). How many more fine testimonies of God's Mercy,Love,Forgiveness and Saving Grace that comes from faith in Jesus Christ and His blood will be trampled under foot in an attempt to prove a point? If we repent of this error of division and walk in love, how many more would embrace us and reflect that love back at us?

Moving forward,.......
I'm turning the page and looking forward to a future based on a common respect and built out of brotherly love with you and all our other brothers and sisters here in Christ and i hope you will do the same.

Again, you are wrongly judging me when you posted " but your seemingly endless division (4000+times and counting?) and frowardness with most of us here often makes your presence a blight in our pursuit of fellowship and communion with each other. Repent of this bro, we all can find common ground as believers in Jesus Christ; and bare the fruits meet for repentance and of brotherly love as God instructed all of us through His Word to have."

It is me (along with a few others here) that are putting forth the biblical truth on works and baptism. It's those coming here with the false man-made teaching of faith only that is causing the division,discord and they are the one's that need to repent over their false teachings. Look back at my posts, it's me that is trying to keep the discussion in line with what the topic is about. It is you and VCO that are attacking me, accusing me of causing "division" because I will not blindly believe your opinions. There will never be "fellowship and communion" with a false teaching as faith only. If you choose to put the eternal fate of your soul in that man-made teaching that is your business, but don't expect me or others to blindly do so. Neither of you have to believe anything I post, yet I will not say either of you need to be banned for not going along with what I post. Some want the truth seekers banned from forums so they can get a headway with they believe for I have seen it happen on other forums. I have had posts on others forums just vanish into thin air for the "powers that be" on that forum did not want the truth to be taught on that forum even though they "advertise" their forum is for bible debate/discussion. Anytime I brought up Eph 4:4,5 about there being ONE church and ONE faith they hated it. I was kicked off Sean Hannity's forum for not believing that miracles occur today and that Joseph Smith's writings were NOT inspired by God, that his writings came from his own uninspired fantasies and not God. ChristianChat been a very rare forum in where the mods let the discussions go without, or with very little interference, and that is how, in my opinion, discussion boards should be handled. No one should be be banned for not believing as another person believes, that idea is totally non-sense.

Yet in the end, I do not mind the personal attacks at all for they are very telling that the truth is exposing false teachings and the false teachers have nothing left in their arsenal but the personal attacks. Nor do I need to repent for not believing what you, or others, think I should believe. Everyone on the forum has the option to ignore what another person posts, no one has to read or respond to any post they do not want to.


Lastly, as to your charge that I am causing "seemingly endless division (4000+times and counting?) and frowardness with most of us here often makes your presence a blight in our pursuit of fellowship and communion with each other"

Oh please spare me!!! There was fussing, fighting, arguing, discord and disagreement before I came to this forum as I saw by reading many posts before I joined this forum. There has been fussing, fighting, arguing, discord and disagreement among many, many, many posters (including you) since I have been here and there will be fussing, fighting, arguing, discord and disagreement long after I am gone. So please do not falsely charge me of bringing something to this forum that was already long here before I was and will remain here long after I am gone.

 

[SeaBass]

The word translated faith is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and is defined as follows: #4102; pistis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity. The word translated believe is from the greek word pisteuō which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ)."

The word "believe" can describe mere mental assent belief, as in (James 2:19) or also include trust and reliance in Christ for salvation, as in (Acts 16:31). In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons also believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

I believe "mental assent" have faith that George Washington existed and I also believe in the historical facts about George Washington, but I do not have faith in him/am not trusting in Him to save my soul. That is the huge difference! Saving belief/faith is more than just an "intellectual acknowledgment" to the existence and historical facts about Christ. Saving belief/faith trusts exclusively in Christ's finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation. Good works which follow are the fruit, but not the root of salvation.

There is no difference between the belief the devils have and belief only that many have today.

The devil's belief is, as you say, a mere mental assent of the mind and contains no obedient works.
Belief only, as many have today, is likewise a mere mental assent, a belief that contains no obedient work.


You posted "The word "believe" can describe mere mental assent belief, as in (James 2:19) or also include trust and reliance in Christ for salvation, as in (Acts 16:31)."

What is this "trust and reliance on Christ"?

Is "trust and reliance" an obedient work of belief in doing what Christ said, Lk 6:46

or

is "trust and reliance" just mental thoughts, mental acknowledgements, mental assent of the mind where the believer does no works but just has "mental acknowledgments" of some information for Christ has done all the work?

What is the difference between the chief rules belief (Jn 12:42) and the devils belief? None, for the chief rulers belief did not contain obedient works just as the devils belief.

There are many people that say their belief is "trust and reliance on Christ" for salvation, yet they all belong to many religious organizations that believe things totally contradictory to each other. Will they all be saved believing things contradictory to each other even though they all claim to have a belief is "trust and reliance on Christ"?

 

[mailmandan]

There is no difference between the belief the devils have and belief only that many have today.

Many today, just like the devils, believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" and they also may even believe in the existence and historical facts about Christ, but they DO NOT believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation.

The devil's belief is, as you say, a mere mental assent of the mind and contains no obedient works.

Their mental assent belief does not produce obedient works because their trust and reliance is in Satan, NOT IN CHRIST, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. You are not getting to the root of the issue.

Belief only, as many have today, is likewise a mere mental assent, a belief that contains no obedient work.

If someone says/claims he has faith but he has no works to back up his claim (James 2:14-16) then he does not have genuine faith but an empty profession of faith, a dead faith. Many professing Christians today have "mere mental assent belief" in Christ and their trust and reliance is in works for salvation. That is not saving faith. Attempted so called good works conjured up through the flesh in an effort to be saved by works is not obedient work. Just look at the Pharisees.

You posted "The word "believe" can describe mere mental assent belief, as in (James 2:19) or also include trust and reliance in Christ for salvation, as in (Acts 16:31)."

Amen!

What is this "

trust and reliance on Christ"?

It means your trust and reliance is exclusively in Christ for salvation and you are not trusting and relying on your works to save you. Again, the word translated faith is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and is defined as follows: #4102; pistis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity. The word translated believe is from the greek word pisteuō which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ)."

Is "

trust and reliance" an obedient work of belief in doing what Christ said, Lk 6:46

Faith/belief is trust and reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. Doing what Jesus says afterwards is works. Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation. If you are trying to save yourself by works, then you are not doing what Christ said. Neither were the Pharisees. You can't seem to make a distinction between faith and works. To you, faith "is" multiple acts of obedience, faith "is" works. Faith "is" the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Multiple acts of obedience which follow are works and we are not saved by works but through faith in Christ.

or

is "trust and reliance" just mental thoughts, mental acknowledgements, mental assent of the mind where the believer does no works but just has "mental acknowledgments" of some information for Christ has done all the work?

Those whose trust and reliance is in Christ for salvation have been made alive together with Christ by grace through faith and created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). Trust and reliance in Christ for salvation results in a new creation in Christ and producing good works BECAUSE we are saved, not to become saved. Doing no works is not the fruit of salvation, but the fruit of unbelief.

What is the difference between the chief rules belief (Jn 12:42) and the devils belief? None, for the chief rulers belief did not contain obedient works just as the devils belief.

In John 12:42, we do not know the real condition of these "believing" rulers' hearts (mere mental assent belief James 2:19) or (trust and reliance saving belief John 3:16), but we do know that they loved men's praises (v. 43) more than God's (Jn. 5:44). The Does the unwillingness of the chief rulers to confess Christ in this isolated situation throw doubt on the complete genuineness of their faith? Or did they simply have a weak moment in this isolated situation in front of the Pharisees? Does this mean they did not confess Christ to others? The Apostle Peter at one point failed to confess Jesus before men (John 18:17-27), but after the Holy Spirit was given, he was a different man who boldly confessed Him (Acts 4:8-13). We know that Peter was saved even though he had a weak moment and the same may be true for these chief rulers as well. Does the text specifically say that they were saved or not saved? If the chief rulers truly believed (trusted in Christ for salvation) even though they had a weak moment, then they are saved (John 3:16). If their lack of confession was the result of a lack of genuine belief, then they are not saved (John 3:18).

What is the difference between your belief and the devils belief? You both believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" and you both believe "mental assent" in the existence and historical facts about Christ. Neither of you are trusting exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works and your trust and reliance is in water and works, as demonstrated by you promoting your works based false gospel and continuous self righteous works.

There are many people that say their belief is "trust and reliance on Christ" for salvation, yet they all belong to many religious organizations that believe things totally contradictory to each other. Will they all be saved believing things contradictory to each other even though they all claim to have a belief is "trust and reliance on Christ"?

Not everyone who claims to be a genuine Christian really is. In Matthew 7:21, Jesus said - "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works. NOTICE THEY ARE TRUSTING IN THEIR WORKS FOR SALVATION. in John 6:40, Jesus said - For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. NOTICE BELIEVES IN HIM, NOT IN WORKS, AS THESE MANY PEOPLE IN VERSE 22 DO. BELIEVES IN HIM/FAITH IN CHRIST (AND NOT SALVATION BY WORKS) IS THE WILL OF THE FATHER.

 

[VCO]

men go to great lengths to explain what is already explained...demons believe but do not the works of God....that is faith without works....men who want to be saved by grace through faith without works are on the same level as the demons.....faith as a mustard seed grows when it is planted...not when it remains in one's pocket(mind)

You said "men who want to be saved by grace through faith without works", which comes extremely close, but you miss the POINT every TIME.

I agree, MANY think they are saved by grace through faith, when in reality they remain unsaved, and their ever continuing lack of spiritual fruits and works, manifests to us that they NEVER were saved.

The difference is those who GENUINELY have been saved by grace through faith (Born Again), will always strive to KEEP HIS COMMANDS, BECAUSE they WERE (Past Tense) GENUINELY saved by grace through faith. The WORKS are NEVER part of earning one's Salvation, but rather the PROOF that the Holy Spirit manifests IN US, that we really WERE SAVED.

 

[newbirth]

You said "men who want to be saved by grace through faith without works", which comes extremely close, but you miss the POINT every TIME.

I agree, MANY think they are saved by grace through faith, when in reality they remain unsaved, and their ever continuing lack of spiritual fruits and works, manifests to us that they NEVER were saved.

The difference is those who GENUINELY have been saved by grace through faith (Born Again), will always strive to KEEP HIS COMMANDS, BECAUSE they WERE (Past Tense) GENUINELY saved by grace through faith. The WORKS are NEVER part of earning one's Salvation, but rather the PROOF that the Holy Spirit manifests IN US, that we really WERE SAVED.

faith without works is dead....it has nothing to do with earning anything...your faith is without works therefore it is dead....how can it save you ....show me how your faith without works save...you say you have faith....and not works...can faith save you???

[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

I found an interesting article explaning of faith of demons compared to genuine saving faith, by a Catholic theologian Stephen Beale, that points out that genuine faith is for linked to LOVE FOR GOD, whereas the faith of demons has NO LOVE FOR GOD.

One is not saved on intellectual assent that is absent of love for God = the faith of the demons. Love is indispensable to faith; ("genuine saving faith") faith without love is likened to an unplugged lamp. Not only will the bulb in the lamp not shine, but the whole lamp remains without power.

Interesting analogy, and it gives a fair explanation of what James was trying to convey when he said even the demons believe and tremble. Thanks again brother, for adding to to the conversation.

 

[mailmandan]

One is not saved on intellectual assent that is absent of love for God = the faith of the demons. Love is indispensable to faith; ("genuine saving faith") faith without love is likened to an unplugged lamp. Not only will the bulb in the lamp not shine, but the whole lamp remains without power.

Interesting analogy, and it gives a fair explanation of what James was trying to convey when he said even the demons believe and tremble. Thanks again brother, for adding to to the conversation.

Good point about love.

In 1 Corinthians 16:22, we read - If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed. O Lord, come! In

1 John 4:19, we read - We love Him because He first loved us.

Romans 5:5 - .. the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

John 5:38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him youdo not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. 41 I do not receive honor from men. 42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you.

John 8:42 - Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.

1 John 4:8 - He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

 

[3foldchord]

The first verse is speaking to those "called" to the "vocation" to keep the unity of the Spirit in peace in the body. Is this the same kind of faith as someone who has not been born again?

Ephesians 4:6
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Jude 1 goes on to say.......

4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

and.......

19These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. 20But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, 21Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Were these "sensual, having not the Spirit" considered to be of the same faith or is there 2 different kinds of faith?

2 kinds of faith Faith in Jesus that brings us to the faith of Jesus