Paul And James in Total, Complete Agreement On Works
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They did not give them the things which are needed for the body, demonstrating that their faith is dead.
How can faith be with these works in James 2:15-16 upon the very moment of conversion? It takes time to produce these works. Do you think that works are built into faith from the start? It's not faith is dead until it produces these works, it's faith demonstrates that it's not dead by producing these works in James 2:15-16. Why do you have a problem with the word "produce?" Jesus did not have a problem with it:
Matthew 7:17 - Even so, every good tree bears/produces good fruit, but a bad tree bears/produces bad fruit.
Matthew 13:23 - But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
James said he SAYS/CLAIMS he has faith but he has no works NOT actually has faith (vs. 14). Big difference!
He had a dead empty profession of faith, not genuine faith. Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit demonstrates that there is no root.
I absolutely believe scripture. You are the one twisting scripture to make James say we are saved by works.
As I already explained, in James 2:21, In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. No! The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works. Not accounted as righteous, but shown to be righteous. Faith only - per James = empty profession of faith/dead faith and not genuine faith that does not produce works, which is an oxymoron.
Made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean he was finally saved based on his works. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
Again, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous based on his faith and not his works (Romans 4:2-3). Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith and not his works (Genesis 15:6) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar and demonstrated the reality of his faith in Genesis 22.
James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that comes by faith.
In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous". Once again, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
What I said using scripture was crystal clear. If it sounded like babble to you, then you have a major problem - 1 Corinthians 2:14.
Man is saved by grace through faith, NOT WORKS, created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). Show me how a dead faith can bear/produce good works. Also show me how a dead tree can bear/produce fruit. James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to SHOW the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple! Why don't you get it?
How can faith be with these works in James 2:15-16 upon the very moment of conversion? It takes time to produce these works. Do you think that works are built into faith from the start? It's not faith is dead until it produces these works, it's faith demonstrates that it's not dead by producing these works in James 2:15-16. Why do you have a problem with the word "produce?" Jesus did not have a problem with it:
Matthew 7:17 - Even so, every good tree bears/produces good fruit, but a bad tree bears/produces bad fruit.
Matthew 13:23 - But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
James said he SAYS/CLAIMS he has faith but he has no works NOT actually has faith (vs. 14). Big difference!
He had a dead empty profession of faith, not genuine faith. Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit demonstrates that there is no root.
I absolutely believe scripture. You are the one twisting scripture to make James say we are saved by works.
As I already explained, in James 2:21, In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. No! The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works. Not accounted as righteous, but shown to be righteous. Faith only - per James = empty profession of faith/dead faith and not genuine faith that does not produce works, which is an oxymoron.
Made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean he was finally saved based on his works. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
Again, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous based on his faith and not his works (Romans 4:2-3). Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith and not his works (Genesis 15:6) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar and demonstrated the reality of his faith in Genesis 22.
James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that comes by faith.
In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous". Once again, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
What I said using scripture was crystal clear. If it sounded like babble to you, then you have a major problem - 1 Corinthians 2:14.
Man is saved by grace through faith, NOT WORKS, created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). Show me how a dead faith can bear/produce good works. Also show me how a dead tree can bear/produce fruit. James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to SHOW the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple! Why don't you get it?
Faith that trusts IN CHRIST alone for salvation will save you (Ephesians 2:8,9). Faith that claims to be genuine but demonstrates by the lack of works that it's dead will not save you (James 2:14-20) and it's not because we are saved by works; but because works prove or manifest the genuineness of our faith. It's not hard to understand, just hard for many people to ACCEPT.
K
Here is the problem I have with these type of debates all together.
The bible is to be all the word of God. This means that what Jesus, Paul, James, John, or Peter say can not contradict each other. So if one clearly says one is saved at the end, and it looks like one to two of the others say we are saved immediately then the contradiction has to be in how you have read the context in the scripture.
Not that Paul or James contradict each other, or even contradict what the Lord said. Nobody has the right to override what the Lord said, not even Peter, Paul, or James.
So the misinterpret of the scripture falls on the reader, and if you have a question to what they are saying just go back to the words of Jesus our Lord and Savior, for they can not contradict Him.
Matthew 10:22 And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
Matthew 24:10-13
And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
Mark 13:9-13
“But be on your guard. For they will deliver you over to councils, and you will be beaten in synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them. And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all nations. And when they bring you to trial and deliver you over, do not be anxious beforehand what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. And brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death. And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
Here are three scriptures where our Lord Jesus says one is not saved tell after they endure to the end of their physical life.
( In the flesh )
Matthew 25 gives three parables that show only the faithful, obedient servant's get eternal life.
Now how about the Apostles do they agree with saved at the end, agreeing with the Lord, or do they contradict Him by saying immediately saved and nothing one can do matters from here out;
Here is what Paul says;
1 Timothy 4:16
Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.
1 Corinthians 9:24-25
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
Romans 11:19-22
Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
This is also from Paul or one of his understudies;
Hebrews 10:36
For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.
Hebrews 3:12-14
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
Here is what James said;
James 1:12
Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.
Then here is what Peter said;
2 Peter 2:20-22
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”
Here we see them all in agreement with the Lord that one is not truly saved tell the end, for they show that believers can still fall back to sin and be overtaken by sin. And when this happens you no longer have salvation.
The bible is to be all the word of God. This means that what Jesus, Paul, James, John, or Peter say can not contradict each other. So if one clearly says one is saved at the end, and it looks like one to two of the others say we are saved immediately then the contradiction has to be in how you have read the context in the scripture.
Not that Paul or James contradict each other, or even contradict what the Lord said. Nobody has the right to override what the Lord said, not even Peter, Paul, or James.
So the misinterpret of the scripture falls on the reader, and if you have a question to what they are saying just go back to the words of Jesus our Lord and Savior, for they can not contradict Him.
Matthew 10:22 And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
Matthew 24:10-13
And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
Mark 13:9-13
“But be on your guard. For they will deliver you over to councils, and you will be beaten in synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them. And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all nations. And when they bring you to trial and deliver you over, do not be anxious beforehand what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. And brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death. And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
Here are three scriptures where our Lord Jesus says one is not saved tell after they endure to the end of their physical life.
( In the flesh )
Matthew 25 gives three parables that show only the faithful, obedient servant's get eternal life.
Now how about the Apostles do they agree with saved at the end, agreeing with the Lord, or do they contradict Him by saying immediately saved and nothing one can do matters from here out;
Here is what Paul says;
1 Timothy 4:16
Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.
1 Corinthians 9:24-25
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
Romans 11:19-22
Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
This is also from Paul or one of his understudies;
Hebrews 10:36
For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.
Hebrews 3:12-14
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
Here is what James said;
James 1:12
Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.
Then here is what Peter said;
2 Peter 2:20-22
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”
Here we see them all in agreement with the Lord that one is not truly saved tell the end, for they show that believers can still fall back to sin and be overtaken by sin. And when this happens you no longer have salvation.
E
agree.
and they do. unless you take the legalistic approach (salvation is by works of any type) they they do not agree, unless you twist the words they say, or take their words out of context.
I can post a bunch of scripture to. that is not going to work, unless we take ALL that they said, not just a few nipets that appear to be supporting our theories.
and they do. unless you take the legalistic approach (salvation is by works of any type) they they do not agree, unless you twist the words they say, or take their words out of context.
I can post a bunch of scripture to. that is not going to work, unless we take ALL that they said, not just a few nipets that appear to be supporting our theories.
Did I said A and B verse in the bible?
I don't said so. A and B is conclusion from the bible and the verse I give to you already.
This verse is figurative you know that brother. Jesus not talking about real tree.
Good tree is a man with real faith in Jesus.
Fruit is work.
Man with real faith in Jesus will bear good work.
So is it impossible for a man with real faith not bear good work.
Its mean when James said faith without work is dead. It not mean letter. It satirized.
I don't said so. A and B is conclusion from the bible and the verse I give to you already.
Luke 6:43
For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.This verse is figurative you know that brother. Jesus not talking about real tree.
Good tree is a man with real faith in Jesus.
Fruit is work.
Man with real faith in Jesus will bear good work.
So is it impossible for a man with real faith not bear good work.
Its mean when James said faith without work is dead. It not mean letter. It satirized.
K
Lets look at this in a drink standpoint, just to make things simple;
Chocolate milk (represents) Salvation
Milk (represents) Faith
Chocolate syrup (represents) Works done in love for God
You have to have both milk and chocolate syrup to have chocolate milk.
milk + choc. syrup = chocolate milk
Faith + good works done in love for the Lord = Salvation
Faith + no works = spiritual death ( because it is a dead faith )
Chocolate milk (represents) Salvation
Milk (represents) Faith
Chocolate syrup (represents) Works done in love for God
You have to have both milk and chocolate syrup to have chocolate milk.
milk + choc. syrup = chocolate milk
Faith + good works done in love for the Lord = Salvation
Faith + no works = spiritual death ( because it is a dead faith )
E
that does not fit. Because a dead faith and a genuine real faith are not the same.
One is claimed, yet is dead.
One is actual, and is alive
A faith in claim only does not work. because it rejects what God says about our standing with God (condemned) What God says about sin )why stop sin when you do not agree it is evil, and causes separation) and what god says about obedience (why be obedient, when you think you are fine just the way your are.)
A better example would be
A claimed faith equals spoiled milk. (which is all of us before we come to Christ
A genuine faith is fresh milk. Because God has made it fresh.
The first can not do anything no matter what you add to it.
The second can be used by God, He can add whatever he wants to it to produce different types of beverages (work)
One is claimed, yet is dead.
One is actual, and is alive
A faith in claim only does not work. because it rejects what God says about our standing with God (condemned) What God says about sin )why stop sin when you do not agree it is evil, and causes separation) and what god says about obedience (why be obedient, when you think you are fine just the way your are.)
A better example would be
A claimed faith equals spoiled milk. (which is all of us before we come to Christ
A genuine faith is fresh milk. Because God has made it fresh.
The first can not do anything no matter what you add to it.
The second can be used by God, He can add whatever he wants to it to produce different types of beverages (work)
Wrong again.......Galatians 1,3 teach against this....
FAITH alone SAVES.....FAITH that is GENUINE and that which saves will produce fruit.....the fruit is the evidence of the FAITH that saves and this is not about chocolate milk and you still are trusting into your works and abilities......WHAT you fail to understand is that it is Jesus' faith that saves US and it is JESUS dai US that produces the works......
FAITH alone SAVES.....FAITH that is GENUINE and that which saves will produce fruit.....the fruit is the evidence of the FAITH that saves and this is not about chocolate milk and you still are trusting into your works and abilities......WHAT you fail to understand is that it is Jesus' faith that saves US and it is JESUS dai US that produces the works......