Is there such a thing as an atheist?

[JesusLives]

Ok so the link is -

Natural person cannot understand God... The bible is the word of God ... Therefore the natural person cannot understand the bible?

I believe you are correct here, but when I pray and ask God for His Holy Spirit to help me to understand and apply what I read to my life then I have supernatural power and my eyes and heart is open to receive the blessings and instructions God is trying to give me. What is impossible for me is possible with God and His help given to me.

 

[JesusLives]

Which requires you to believe in God first. And if you sincerely believe in God first, then there's no need to have supernatural evidence because you already believe.

And if supernatural understanding must be granted by God, then you can't blame people who haven't been granted this understanding for not believing because - they haven't been granted the supernatural understanding!

In the end, if you must believe in God in order to receive an understanding of how he exists, then you don't really need that understanding to begin with - which begs the question as to why you bring up supernatural proofs in the first place when debating the existence of God. If nonbelievers don't have access to these proofs, there's literally zero reason to bring them up with the expectations that you're arguments about the supernatural will be accepted.



Except we can open the hood of the car and view the engine. We can study how the engine works. But let's work on this analogy.

If a person who has never seen a car before saw one move, he might believe it moved by magic. If you explained to him "The care moves because an engine powers it, a contraption that eats oil," he might not believe you until you show it to him first. If you don't show him the engine or you don't have the means to showing him the engine, then there's absolutely no reason why he should believe the engine moves the car just because you told him to. Now, he may trust what you say because you apparently know more about the car than he does - which is okay too, but that doesn't mean the person who is skeptical is any less wise.

What if we're in a similar situation and I tell this person the car runs off of magic, and he believes I'm lying? Would you then call him unwise to doubt me? If both the person who claims the car runs off an engine and the person who claims the car runs off magic refuses to open the hood - why would you criticize the unknowing man for not believing either of them?

So if the supernatual exists, you can't criticize people for being skeptical - especially if you claim the only way to understand the supernatural is for God to pop open the hood of the car and show you.

Hi there just popping in to ask a question.....Blond thinking.......If you hold your breath for a really long time what happens? Don't think about breathing......Hold your breath.........Where did your breath come from? Can you make your heart stop beating? Not talking suicide here.....make it stop beating on your own?......

What is my point?.....Bible tells me where my breath came from.....God took dust and formed a man and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul.....his heart started beating......when we stop breathing the breath goes back to God and the heart stops beating.....just things the Blond thinks about.......that's all.....

 

[Cycel]

What makes the causes? why does light travel at 186,000 miles per second, why not 340,000 miles per second,. I meant why not.

I don't know why light travels at light speed. If it traveled faster then light speed would be different. Acknowledging that you don't know why something happens is not evidence of divine creation. Job didn't know where snow and hail came from, but using your argument Job decided it must be stored in Heaven by God. Job imagined God must be throwing the snow and hail down from his storehouses. See what happens when you make conjectures about the deity from nature. Just because little balls of ice fall from the sky doesn't mean God is tossing them down and it doesn't mean there must be storehouses in Heaven. Likewise, you can't conjecture anything about God from the speed of light. You can't even know that God set the speed of light. Where does it say, and God said, "Let the speed of light be 186,000 miles per second"?

Do you see what you are doing Kerry? You are using the God of the Gaps argument, just like the author of Job did.

 

[Mem]

If anything appeared out of nothing of itself, then it would be some sort of god to be able to do that, wouldn't it? Wouldn't it have to have some sort of intelligence, or at least "will" to "do" ?

 

[JimmieD]

The story is not altered even though there are several of us with different opinions reading it.....But I come up with questions like - This story tells me where a 7 day week comes from back in the beginning... So why do we still have a 7 day week if the story is not true?

A 7 day week is a social convention. Not all societies have used a 7 day week (eg, Aztecs, Maya). Those who did use a 7 day week originally did so probably because of it's coinciding with moon phases. And oddly enough, the biblical authors (for the most part) used a lunar calendar.

Hi there just popping in to ask a question.....Blond thinking.......If you hold your breath for a really long time what happens? Don't think about breathing......Hold your breath.........Where did your breath come from?

Seriously?

Breathing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Can you make your heart stop beating? Not talking suicide here.....make it stop beating on your own?......

It's an involuntary action, so no. You can't control it.

Heartbeat and breathing are pretty well studied.

 

[JimmieD]

If anything appeared out of nothing of itself, then it would be some sort of god to be able to do that, wouldn't it?

First, that something wouldn't have appeared out of nothing and second, why think that it's appearance was caused by a god(s)?

Wouldn't it have to have some sort of intelligence, or at least "will" to "do" ?

Why?

 

[JimmieD]

? why does light travel at 186,000 miles per second, why not 340,000 miles per second,. I meant why not.

Why think that light could travel at 340,000 m/s, or any other speed for that matter? Why do you think the speed of light could be any value other than what we observe?

 

[Mem]

First, that something wouldn't have appeared out of nothing and second, why think that it's appearance was caused by a god(s)?



Why?

No explanation other than it just is?

 

[JimmieD]

No explanation other than it just is?

(1) Why can't it just be a brute fact?

(2) Even if it wasn't a brute fact, not knowing the cause simply means not knowing the cause. It's quite a jump to go from not knowing the cause to concluding that the cause must therefore be the God of Israel.

This isn't to say the God of Israel didn't cause the universe, this is simply a matter of reason and argumentation. You have not proven your case.

 

[ChristIsGod]

Hi friend,

This is a play off of "I don't believe in God, therefore God doesn't exist."

True, that's what I said as well.

But choosing not to believe in something doesn't make something not exist.

True.

Atheists don't go around thinking, "Hmm, I know God is real, but maybe he'll stop being real if I stop believing in him." Nobody is that stupid.

Goodness, this is a long thread. I haven't read all of it, but I did catch that one Sister did already give Romans 1 for a reply.

I'll quote the portion that would be the reply from Scripture that applies to this last quote.

Quote from the Book: Rom 1:19-22 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools



As an atheist should realize, that on a Christian forum, they're going to be met with those that base their beliefs upon one Book and will more times than not, receive quotes as replies from that Book. Hope you can understand that and not be offended in the wrong way if and when someone does quote Scripture. I just can't see discussing Christianity without it - can you?


Thank you for your reply.

All of His Best to you & yours.
Sincerely

 

[Mem]

(1) Why can't it just be a brute fact?

(2) Even if it wasn't a brute fact, not knowing the cause simply means not knowing the cause. It's quite a jump to go from not knowing the cause to concluding that the cause must therefore be the God of Israel.

This isn't to say the God of Israel didn't cause the universe, this is simply a matter of reason and argumentation. You have not proven your case.

I could if you would like to afford me the same brute fact claim that you expect to be afforded. It all comes down to the one telling the other to study more in their chosen discipline, except one is expected to incorporate the understanding of the other (which at various times involves speculation) and then we are back at how did it come to be and what constitutes being.

Other than that, the scientific is way beyond my expertise to try to contend with. I just thought I'd butt in with a couple cents.

 

[JimmieD]

I could if you would like to afford me the same brute fact claim that you expect to be afforded. It all comes down to the one telling the other to study more in their chosen discipline, except one is expected to incorporate the understanding of the other (which at various times involves speculation) and then we are back at how did it come to be and what constitutes being.

Other than that, the scientific is way beyond my expertise to try to contend with. I just thought I'd butt in with a couple cents.

I think the problem is that everyone will end up appealing to some brute fact to explain the existence of the universe. Somewhere in our lines of reasoning we will reach a fact or something that has no explanation. For an atheist, perhaps the big bang is the brute fact - it just happens or is due to some random quantum fluctuation. For the theist, the brute fact may perhaps lie in the mind of God. Why did God create? I dunno, He just did. Either the act of creation or the "decision" to create would be a fact requiring explanation, otherwise you are left with a brute fact.

Cosmologial arguments (arguments from 1st cause) rely on the Principle of Sufficient Reason. For the arguments to work, every contingent fact needs to have an explanation - or everything that begins to exist needs a cause. In either case, for the theist or atheist, I suspect all will end up with some brute contingent fact somewhere in their lines of reasoning, which undermines cosmological arguments as it undercuts the Principle of Sufficient Reason. We can find contingent facts that seem to genuinely have no explanation.

This is why I don't care for these sorts of arguments. I think they rely on the Principle of Sufficient Reason and we have reason to believe that the PSR is false.

 

[ColinCat]

Plus there is always the "I don't know" position. Which I am more than comfortable to take.

A lot of people think there are only two possible scenarios. It was either God or the big bang. And if you don't believe in one then you must believe in the other.

That's a mistake that should not be made.

No one really knows. People like to think they know or align themselves with what they would like to believe. But nobody really knows.

If you can't show it, then you can't know it. That's true for many aspects of life and it's an approach that should be taken more often.

There's nothing wrong with saying "I'm not sure.But personally I'd like to think that..."


That's fine... But never say you KNOW. Becaue no one does.

 

[phil112]

......................A lot of people think there are only two possible scenarios. It was either God or the big bang. And if you don't believe in one then you must believe in the other......................

Science points emphatically to a "big bang". God created everything as He wanted, and if He wanted to use a "big bang" to do it, then that's how it happened.

 

[jkalyna]

I am curious as to what you mean here. Are you saying they became more intelligent, perhaps by learning, or that the brain literally increased in size? I am aware of no studies or research that points to proof of brain development being part of "evolution". Humans have always been smart.

*tools could be a weapon,*

 

[Leannaix]

I am curious as to what you mean here. Are you saying they became more intelligent, perhaps by learning, or that the brain literally increased in size? I am aware of no studies or research that points to proof of brain development being part of "evolution". Humans have always been smart.

Yes, evolutionary studies make it evident that the brain actually became larger due to a mutation that affected jaw size, therefore increasing the amount of spae in the brain cavity. The same change that made our jaws too small for our wisdom teeth made our skulls big enough for our big brains. But brain size isn't the only factor contributing to intelligence. It did allow us to store more information (decades worth of memories) and allowed for complex problem solving (compared to the problem solving skills of smaller-brained animals.) Humans haven't always been smart; really, humans haven't always been humans.

 

[Elin]

Plus there is always the "I don't know" position. Which I am more than comfortable to take.

A lot of people think there are only two possible scenarios. It was either God or the big bang. And if you don't believe in one then you must believe in the other.

That's a mistake that should not be made.

No one really knows. People like to think they know or align themselves with what they would like to believe. But nobody really knows.

God knows.

And he has revealed what he wants us to believe about it.
That is good enough for me.
And it is what I want to believe about it.

 

[phil112]

Did you hear about the agnostic, dyslexic insomniac... he lay awake all night wondering if there really was a dog.

 

[ColinCat]

Did you hear about the agnostic, dyslexic insomniac... he lay awake all night wondering if there really was a dog.

Ha! I thought he sold his soul to Santa

 

[Elin]

Ha! I thought he sold his soul to Santa

Is that dyslexic?