-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
According to principles of uniformitarianism and known laws of nature, the heavens and the earth could not have formed in seven days. However, all things are possible with God and the universe doesn't really show us how it was made (Hebrews 11:3). None of us were there at the beginning as observers and witnesses. An All-mighty God is not constrained by the known laws of nature.
In the Book of John, we see Jesus Christ doing many things that suspend the known laws of nature:
The church was established in the first century A.D. by those who had been observers and witnesses to these things. Since then, some have doubted; some believe.
In the Book of John, we see Jesus Christ doing many things that suspend the known laws of nature:
- Turning water into wine
- Healing the royal official's son without even seeing him
- Healing a lame man at the pool of Bethesda whose infirmity had continued for thirty-eight years
- Feeding more than 5000 with a few loaves and fishes
- Walking on the water
- Giving sight to a young man who had been born blind
- Raising Lazarus from the dead
The church was established in the first century A.D. by those who had been observers and witnesses to these things. Since then, some have doubted; some believe.
Wham! 
[video=youtube_share;55P-s6OwtaQ]http://youtu.be/55P-s6OwtaQ[/video]
[video=youtube_share;55P-s6OwtaQ]http://youtu.be/55P-s6OwtaQ[/video]
Frank is basically saying that over 2 thirds of the earths population, ( the majority of the people on this planet), have no standard with which to judge what is morally right?
Granted, scientific explanations exist that require billions of years for the formation of the universe, and some 4.7 billion years for our solar system to arise.
God may technically have no constraints, but science does not require any supernatural intervention to explain the universe as we know it. It's a bit like arguing that a hailstorm was sent by God when a perfectly good scientific explanation already exists.
I must say, all these miracles stretch my credulity beyond the limit of what is plausible.
I view church history somewhat differently than this.
God may technically have no constraints, but science does not require any supernatural intervention to explain the universe as we know it. It's a bit like arguing that a hailstorm was sent by God when a perfectly good scientific explanation already exists.
I must say, all these miracles stretch my credulity beyond the limit of what is plausible.
I view church history somewhat differently than this.
The known universe is finite. God is infinite. Transgression against an infinite being is an infinite offense.
God is invisible now and patient but this will change. Jesus Christ will return. Who shall be able to stand when He appears and God's wrath against sin and injustice appears?
But you, you are to be feared! Who can stand before you when once your anger is roused? - Psalm 76:7
Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. - Isaiah 8:13
But who may abide the day of His coming? and who shall stand when He appeareth? For He is like a refiner's fire. - Malachi 3:2
“Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; For ALL THE NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU, FOR YOUR RIGHTEOUS ACTS HAVE BEEN REVEALED.” - Revelation 15:4
There is an available salvation from the wrath of God but the conditions to receive it include repentance toward God and faith towards our Lord Jesus Christ. (Acts 20:21). Almighty God must also sovereignly grant to you to receive the gift of his Holy Spirit.
“And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.” - Acts 5:32
God is invisible now and patient but this will change. Jesus Christ will return. Who shall be able to stand when He appears and God's wrath against sin and injustice appears?
But you, you are to be feared! Who can stand before you when once your anger is roused? - Psalm 76:7
Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. - Isaiah 8:13
But who may abide the day of His coming? and who shall stand when He appeareth? For He is like a refiner's fire. - Malachi 3:2
“Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; For ALL THE NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU, FOR YOUR RIGHTEOUS ACTS HAVE BEEN REVEALED.” - Revelation 15:4
There is an available salvation from the wrath of God but the conditions to receive it include repentance toward God and faith towards our Lord Jesus Christ. (Acts 20:21). Almighty God must also sovereignly grant to you to receive the gift of his Holy Spirit.
“And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.” - Acts 5:32
P
This is not a reasonable statement in light of what we know today. The universe is ever expanding and we haven't found the edge yet. It is infinite to us. Astronomers acknowledge there are millions of stars and still counting. If one cannot quantify something, it is indeed infinite. Man has no clue as to, not only how big the universe is, but what it is.
Universe: All space-time, matter, and energy, including the solar system, all stars and galaxies, and the contents of intergalactic space, regarded as a whole."
Infinity: "Unbounded space, time, or quantity."
Eternity exists and it is impossible to quantify it.
To sum it up, saying "known universe" is inaccurate given that we now realize we don't know the universe. Life in eternity is infinite and therefore we can only conclude the universe too must be infinite.
Universe: All space-time, matter, and energy, including the solar system, all stars and galaxies, and the contents of intergalactic space, regarded as a whole."
Infinity: "Unbounded space, time, or quantity."
Eternity exists and it is impossible to quantify it.
To sum it up, saying "known universe" is inaccurate given that we now realize we don't know the universe. Life in eternity is infinite and therefore we can only conclude the universe too must be infinite.
According to the physicists we are not able to see beyond the outer boundary, labeled in this video as "Our Cosmic Horizon in Space and Time". That doesn't mean there is nothing beyond this present bubble that we have mapped, it only means we have reached the limit of what we can see with our current technology. We don't know what lies beyond. We may never know, or we might develop new technologies that permit us to discover more than we currently think possible. Many believe, based on some computer models, that we exist in a single bubble universe, one of perhaps uncounted billions of similar universes. They may go on without end. We just don't know.
You think the universe is finite? Truthfully Nl, that is just a guess. There is no evidence for that view. There is no solid evidence either way. Not yet.
You think the universe is finite? Truthfully Nl, that is just a guess. There is no evidence for that view. There is no solid evidence either way. Not yet.
You know what Straightshot, I have frequently argued that there were very few, if any, atheists in antiquity, and I am saying this as an atheist. It may have been that Paul, when he penned Romans, did not know any confessed atheists. Most everyone, pagan, Jew, Christian, etc., believed in the existence of gods of one sort or another. True, there were a handful of pagan philosophers who might have been atheists, but we can't say for certain. Writers in that era would have been quite reluctant, for issues of personal safety, to make such a claim. It was an offense among the Romans not to make public offerings (the Jews were exempted), and if you were a Jew making such a declaration it would likely get you stoned. So I am not surprised Paul did not know of any atheists.
How would you define the terms agnostic and atheist? I believe no gods of any kind exist. What does that make me, an agnostic? Certainly not. An agnostic is someone who claims not to know whether or not a god or gods exist. "Agnosticism is the view that the truth values of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of God, as well as other religious and metaphysical claims—are unknown or unknowable" (Wikipedia: Agnosticism). I think we can know that such things do not exist.
PS. I should know whether or not I am an atheist, despite what Paul might mistakenly believe.
How would you define the terms agnostic and atheist? I believe no gods of any kind exist. What does that make me, an agnostic? Certainly not. An agnostic is someone who claims not to know whether or not a god or gods exist. "Agnosticism is the view that the truth values of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of God, as well as other religious and metaphysical claims—are unknown or unknowable" (Wikipedia: Agnosticism). I think we can know that such things do not exist.
PS. I should know whether or not I am an atheist, despite what Paul might mistakenly believe.
According to the physicists we are not able to see beyond the outer boundary, labeled in this video as "Our Cosmic Horizon in Space and Time". That doesn't mean there is nothing beyond this present bubble that we have mapped, it only means we have reached the limit of what we can see with our current technology. We don't know what lies beyond. We may never know, or we might develop new technologies that permit us to discover more than we currently think possible. Many believe, based on some computer models, that we exist in a single bubble universe, one of perhaps uncounted billions of similar universes. They may go on without end. We just don't know.
You think the universe is finite? Truthfully Nl, that is just a guess. There is no evidence for that view. There is no solid evidence either way. Not yet.
You think the universe is finite? Truthfully Nl, that is just a guess. There is no evidence for that view. There is no solid evidence either way. Not yet.
Natural numbers are those we get by counting. As much as you may add to your starting point at 0, it is just an addition or accretion and the next natural number in a series. As you add 1 to a previous natural number to calculate a larger natural number, you will gradually approach something like infinity but never really arrive at infinity.
Infinity as a number is not a natural number but is something majestic beyond the next natural number in a series. Infinity is a special type of number that is separate from natural numbers.
God is infinite and majestic. The concepts go together.
You can speculate about infinite accretion of galaxies beyond what's known from our reference point of earth but it is only speculation.
You can speculate and believe in multiple universes is also mere speculation. Many believe in multi-universes. As in Phil's current signature block: A man believes what he wants to believe. You can bring him a mountain of evidence to the contrary and you will not persuade him of truth.
Human knowledge of the universe and everything else is finite. Only God is truly infinite but this is one of God's attributes that He can transfer to us so that we can have an infinite, eternal future existence.
An infinite God who is separate from us is a concept that professing atheists reject.
An infinite universe in which the atheist shares the same type of "stardust" as the stars themselves seems acceptable to the professing atheist. How majestic to be part of a potentially infinite universe! On the other hand, if we are just clay and dust, and Someone Else is infinite and majestic, then how humble and lowly! One perspective is majestic and one is lowly
An infinite universe would be a Majestic, Deified universe. Infinity is an attribute of Deity. The professing atheist seems to have no problem making himself or herself to be a part of the infinite majesty of a theoretically infinite universe.
The atheist posits the possibility of an infinite universe and themselves as a piece of the infinity. I'm sorry to say it but the logic seems to be: If there must be a God, let the atheist be part of the godhead and not separate from the godhead. The professing atheist commonly disallows a separate God but allows a type of pantheism where the atheist himself or herself participates in the godhead. It is a separate God who forms persons like a potter forms vessels with clay whom the atheist seems to reject.
I have taken note of the litany of biblical threats made against those such as myself. Honestly, the truth of your claim eludes me. I cannot comprehend why a god of such power cares what I – a mere mortal, one of perhaps billions who have existed through time – thinks. That such a god would seek revenge and wish to punish, perhaps even desire eternal suffering, for the mere act of not believing the correct things about him, speaks more, I think, to his moral failure as a loving Being. Does such a god truly deserve worship? Liberal Christians may have the right of it. They have, many of them at least, dismissed the reality of Hell. There are those, in a goodly number, who have gone a step further and in turn dismissed belief in God altogether. This moral question has led many to atheism, though not I. I came by a different route.
Then the universe itself may not be finite? The video portrayed what is today understood of the known universe. Do we know for certain that this view is correct? The James Webb telescope is set for launch in 2018. It will be far more powerful than the Hubble and will surpass all ground based instruments. What if it shows us a universe different than the one we now imagine to exist? I don't believe we have the final answers. I suspect there are more and bigger surprises waiting. I may be wrong. It may show astronomers exactly what they expect to find. Frankly, that would be boring.
You can't run out of digits to add Nl.
You can't reach infinity because you can always add one more number no matter where you are in a sequence, and no matter where you are in the sequence it is just another natural number.
Saying God is infinite just rolls off the tongue, but is he really? How do you add one more to God? I'd say God is finite. Does God have to keep getting bigger and bigger without end? If so then God is ever changing.
That's why the new James Webb telescope is so exciting. Its primary mirror is 21 feet in diameter. Compare that to the much smaller 8 foot mirror of the Hubble. Its optics will peer inside galactic clouds and show us whether stars are actually being born there, and it will show us new and much larger vistas of galaxies. There will be less to speculate about and more to measure.
Mathematical models support this view, but yes, we don't yet have physical evidence. However, if the math is correct then so is the model.
I too agree with Phi'ls signature block, but remember the man who is refusing to acknowledge the mountain of evidence in front of himself may be you. I have the mountain in full view and I think it is beautiful.
You can't run out of digits to add Nl.
You can't reach infinity because you can always add one more number no matter where you are in a sequence, and no matter where you are in the sequence it is just another natural number.
Saying God is infinite just rolls off the tongue, but is he really? How do you add one more to God? I'd say God is finite. Does God have to keep getting bigger and bigger without end? If so then God is ever changing.
That's why the new James Webb telescope is so exciting. Its primary mirror is 21 feet in diameter. Compare that to the much smaller 8 foot mirror of the Hubble. Its optics will peer inside galactic clouds and show us whether stars are actually being born there, and it will show us new and much larger vistas of galaxies. There will be less to speculate about and more to measure.
Mathematical models support this view, but yes, we don't yet have physical evidence. However, if the math is correct then so is the model.
I too agree with Phi'ls signature block, but remember the man who is refusing to acknowledge the mountain of evidence in front of himself may be you. I have the mountain in full view and I think it is beautiful.