Stop Arguing about Law under Grace
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B
BradC
Guest
They will never grasp what you are communicating in your post concerning the truth of the NT believer and the body of Christ and our position in Him. They will relate to it as if they do, but in practice they do not. They are smug in their position concerning the law and convoluted in their appreciation for what God has done through His Son by the Spirit with the one new man, the body of Christ. They would rather live independent of the body and observe the law instead of receiving grace and be hid with Christ as a member of His body, flesh and bones.
They esteem Yeshua without recognizing what He has created through grace outside the law. You can't worship Christ, who is the head of His body, the church, without knowing the truth about His body that He resides over. You can't substitute the law for what God has established through the Spirit of grace in the new creation. As a body of believers that make up the body of Christ we are one body under grace and not the law. We are one body under the headship of Christ and those delegated to the church tor preach and teach until we come unto the unity of the faith. We are one body with a body of doctrine that edifies the body and builds it up in grace and truth revealing a risen Christ without the demands of the law. Every believer is under Christ and under grace and walks in the light of the love of God. The believer lives according to the truth that the Spirit reveals through the word who has placed us in Christ under the new covenant of grace.
K
Karraster
Guest
WE ARE THE BORG..YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED...RESISTANCE IS FUTILE YOU WILL NOT OBEY HIM YOU WILL JUST BELIEVE AND LISTEN TO THE STILL SMALL VOICE IN YOUR HEAD AND DO WHAT IT TELLS YOU......sorry Brad...couldn't resist
Romans 9:29 And as Isaiah said before, Except the Lord of hosts had left us a descendant, we had been as Sodom, and been made like unto Gomorrah.
Having been moved by the sincere question of a brother in Christ I responded the following which seems to be appropriate for here also:
"Greetings in Jesus Christ. I will try to relate to you what I believe is the truth from Jesus Christ's teachings, and from His Word, for He is the Word.
Abraham was chosen to be the father of many nations because he believed and obeyed God, even His commandments though they had not been given to Moses yet to write down.
Abraham knew grace because the gospel was actually preached to him.
The law given to Moses came with a curse, that being any who break it would die, even though the law is holy and good. No man, other than God incarnate can possibly obey all the law perfectly because of the curse it comes with, punishment and deat.
When Jesus Christ came, He preached the Gospel which freed us all of the curse of the law, punishment and death, but by His own words the law was not abolished, but the curse of the law was abolished on the cross with Him.
Now, because of the gift of Jesus Christ's cleansing Blood, we are free of the curse of the law, but as Paul teaches our new faith establishes the law.
If we listen closely to Jesus Christ we learn that laws that condemn and kill are replaced by mercy. One prime example is when the woman caught in adultry escaped being stoned to death by the mediation of Jesus Christ between her and her accusers.
Jesus explains much more and repeats much more fromthe law and the Old Testament in His teachings and sermons.
Jesus freed us from the cumbersome and ceremonial laws. He is the only sacrifice for out wrongdoing, sin, so there no longer is need for an altar and animal sacrifices, not that they would save our souls.
Jesus declares nothing by entering the body will corrupt the body, but that which proceeds from the heart, if it is evil, will corrupt the body, thus rendering all foods clean. Also Peter had the vision of the sheet and the unclean animals which many take as confirmation that all foods are now clean when received with thanksgivig, thus we bless our food by giving thanks for it.
There are no temple laws to follow because the temple of God has been moved to our bodies making us living stones of the Temple with Jesus Christ as the Head and the Cornerstone. (Please consider this truth from the Word when you read about the signs of the end time and His return, specifically His reply to how beautiful the buildings are.)
This leaves us only the rules of the game of life written down by Moses from God. Be good even to our enemies and love them. No eye for an eye, rather turn the other cheek. Never return evil for evil. All ten of our Father's most specific instructions, the Ten Commandments.
Actually, it is written in the Old Testament that God gave some statutes and ordinances (laws) that were bad and not to be followed, but this is overlooked by most people.
Bottom line of our faith is that we should do our best to be obedient children of the Most High God, and HIs commandments on good and moral behavior should never be a burden, but our new nature because of faith. So the gift of faith we receive when we seek Jesus and are found establishes the law. We are to forgive others if we expect to be forgiven for with the judgment we judge others we will be judged ourselves. Therefore, judge not lest you be judged (by your very own judgment.) Our Savior gives us a lot of responsibility, so we must act upon it.
If you actually do read this, I am blessed by you. Today I will be away from the Forum because I have a monthly chore to manage. I pray in Jesus Christ's blessed name that you are blessed by this sharing of His Word. May you be filled with the grace that is Jesus Christ now and forever, amen.......................j"
"Greetings in Jesus Christ. I will try to relate to you what I believe is the truth from Jesus Christ's teachings, and from His Word, for He is the Word.
Abraham was chosen to be the father of many nations because he believed and obeyed God, even His commandments though they had not been given to Moses yet to write down.
Abraham knew grace because the gospel was actually preached to him.
The law given to Moses came with a curse, that being any who break it would die, even though the law is holy and good. No man, other than God incarnate can possibly obey all the law perfectly because of the curse it comes with, punishment and deat.
When Jesus Christ came, He preached the Gospel which freed us all of the curse of the law, punishment and death, but by His own words the law was not abolished, but the curse of the law was abolished on the cross with Him.
Now, because of the gift of Jesus Christ's cleansing Blood, we are free of the curse of the law, but as Paul teaches our new faith establishes the law.
If we listen closely to Jesus Christ we learn that laws that condemn and kill are replaced by mercy. One prime example is when the woman caught in adultry escaped being stoned to death by the mediation of Jesus Christ between her and her accusers.
Jesus explains much more and repeats much more fromthe law and the Old Testament in His teachings and sermons.
Jesus freed us from the cumbersome and ceremonial laws. He is the only sacrifice for out wrongdoing, sin, so there no longer is need for an altar and animal sacrifices, not that they would save our souls.
Jesus declares nothing by entering the body will corrupt the body, but that which proceeds from the heart, if it is evil, will corrupt the body, thus rendering all foods clean. Also Peter had the vision of the sheet and the unclean animals which many take as confirmation that all foods are now clean when received with thanksgivig, thus we bless our food by giving thanks for it.
There are no temple laws to follow because the temple of God has been moved to our bodies making us living stones of the Temple with Jesus Christ as the Head and the Cornerstone. (Please consider this truth from the Word when you read about the signs of the end time and His return, specifically His reply to how beautiful the buildings are.)
This leaves us only the rules of the game of life written down by Moses from God. Be good even to our enemies and love them. No eye for an eye, rather turn the other cheek. Never return evil for evil. All ten of our Father's most specific instructions, the Ten Commandments.
Actually, it is written in the Old Testament that God gave some statutes and ordinances (laws) that were bad and not to be followed, but this is overlooked by most people.
Bottom line of our faith is that we should do our best to be obedient children of the Most High God, and HIs commandments on good and moral behavior should never be a burden, but our new nature because of faith. So the gift of faith we receive when we seek Jesus and are found establishes the law. We are to forgive others if we expect to be forgiven for with the judgment we judge others we will be judged ourselves. Therefore, judge not lest you be judged (by your very own judgment.) Our Savior gives us a lot of responsibility, so we must act upon it.
If you actually do read this, I am blessed by you. Today I will be away from the Forum because I have a monthly chore to manage. I pray in Jesus Christ's blessed name that you are blessed by this sharing of His Word. May you be filled with the grace that is Jesus Christ now and forever, amen.......................j"
K
Karraster
Guest
Truly inspired brother JJ. Peace and blessings..
The LORD shall preserve your going out and your coming in from this time forth, and even for ever more.
The LORD shall preserve your going out and your coming in from this time forth, and even for ever more.
Thank you for blessing me so specially. I pray you and all members of the Body of Christ are blessed in all their doings, going out and coming in also, amen.
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Karraster again.
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Karraster again.
Keeping in mind that
--Jesus was born and lived under the law,
--those to whom he preached were under the law,
--the superiority of the new covenant was not revealed until after Jesus' death,
--it was not Jesus who said the curse of the law was abolished on the cross.
Paul said that his teaching ("we") establishes the law on its right basis,
as subordinate to the law of grace.
Examination of that account shows
1) they did not bring her to Jesus to be stoned, but to trap him,
2) there were no legal grounds on which to stone the woman:
stoning was only for virgins betrothed in marriage,
both parties to the transgression were to be stoned together,
and there was no second party,
two witnesses were required, and no witnesses remained to testify.
This account is not an example of mercy over law, but rather
an example of Jesus obeying the law, and not condemning her
without legal grounds for doing so.
Your egregious omission of the new covenant revelation spoken by the Son
in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers pretty much shows it all.
No mention of the law of Christ (Mt 22:37-39; 1Co 9:21)
which fulfills the law (Mt 22:40; Ro 13:8-10; Gal 5:6),
no mention of the new covenant revelation spoken by the Son
in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers with its
myriads of commands and exhortations to holiness.
And with good reason. . .it was not God who gave them such statutes.
In Eze 20:23-25, the laws God gave them over to and the statutes they could not live by refer to the laws of their enemies to whom God gave them over (Dt 28:48; 2Chr 12:8), not to the laws of God.
Keeping in mind that
--Jesus was born and lived under the law,
He taught against unjust laws such as an eye for an eye.
--those to whom he preached were under the law,
--the superiority of the new covenant was not revealed until after Jesus' death,
The Gospel of Jesus Christ includes mercy when and where ever it may be given, this includes excusing some under the law from its punishment.
--it was not Jesus who said the curse of the law was abolished on the cross.
If all scripture is inspired by Jesus Christ then He did.
Now, because of the gift of Jesus Christ's cleansing Blood, we are free of the curse of the law, but as Paul teaches
our new faith establishes the law. Paul said that his teaching ("we") establishes the law on its right basis,
as subordinate to the law of grace.
How many times have I answered this the same for even you? And yes, Paul teaches our faith establishes the law, and this is plainly deliniated in the post to which you refer.
If we listen closely to Jesus Christ we learn that
laws that condemn and kill are replaced by mercy. One
prime example is when the woman caught in adultry escaped being stoned to death by the mediation of Jesus Christ between her and her accusers. Examination of that account shows
1) they did not bring her to Jesus to be stoned, but to trap him,
They were prepared to stone her, and the did say to Jesus that the law requires she be stoned. Of course the hypocrites also were seeking to find fault with our Lord.
2) there were no legal grounds on which to stone the woman:
stoning was only for virgins betrothed in marriage,
both parties to the transgression were to be stoned together,
and there was no second party,
two witnesses were required, and no witnesses remained to testify.
It would behoove you to learn the laws before interpreting them
This account is not an example of mercy over law, but rather
an example of Jesus obeying the law, and not condemning her
without legal grounds for doing so.
Again you bend the reality of the written word to suit an unhappy attitude.
This leaves us only the rules of the game of life written down by Moses from God.
Your egregious omission of the new covenant revelation spoken by the Son
in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers pretty much shows it all.
No mention of the law of Christ (Mt 22:37-39; 1Co 9:21)
which fulfills the law (Mt 22:40; Ro 13:8-10; Gal 5:6),
no mention of the new covenant revelation spoken by the Son
in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers with its
myriads of commands and exhortations to holiness.
Actually, it is written in the Old Testament that God gave some statutes and ordinances (laws) that were bad and not to be followed
but
this is overlooked by most people. And with good reason. . .it was not God who gave them such statutes.
In Eze 20:23-25, the laws God gave them over to and the statutes they could not live by refer to the laws of their enemies to whom God gave them over (Dt 28:48; 2Chr 12:8), not to the laws of God.
You should really give a good and hard rethink to what you are saying here.
--Jesus was born and lived under the law,
He taught against unjust laws such as an eye for an eye.
--those to whom he preached were under the law,
--the superiority of the new covenant was not revealed until after Jesus' death,
The Gospel of Jesus Christ includes mercy when and where ever it may be given, this includes excusing some under the law from its punishment.
--it was not Jesus who said the curse of the law was abolished on the cross.
If all scripture is inspired by Jesus Christ then He did.
Now, because of the gift of Jesus Christ's cleansing Blood, we are free of the curse of the law, but as Paul teaches
our new faith establishes the law. Paul said that his teaching ("we") establishes the law on its right basis,
as subordinate to the law of grace.
How many times have I answered this the same for even you? And yes, Paul teaches our faith establishes the law, and this is plainly deliniated in the post to which you refer.
If we listen closely to Jesus Christ we learn that
laws that condemn and kill are replaced by mercy. One
prime example is when the woman caught in adultry escaped being stoned to death by the mediation of Jesus Christ between her and her accusers. Examination of that account shows
1) they did not bring her to Jesus to be stoned, but to trap him,
They were prepared to stone her, and the did say to Jesus that the law requires she be stoned. Of course the hypocrites also were seeking to find fault with our Lord.
2) there were no legal grounds on which to stone the woman:
stoning was only for virgins betrothed in marriage,
both parties to the transgression were to be stoned together,
and there was no second party,
two witnesses were required, and no witnesses remained to testify.
It would behoove you to learn the laws before interpreting them
This account is not an example of mercy over law, but rather
an example of Jesus obeying the law, and not condemning her
without legal grounds for doing so.
Again you bend the reality of the written word to suit an unhappy attitude.
This leaves us only the rules of the game of life written down by Moses from God.
Your egregious omission of the new covenant revelation spoken by the Son
in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers pretty much shows it all.
No mention of the law of Christ (Mt 22:37-39; 1Co 9:21)
which fulfills the law (Mt 22:40; Ro 13:8-10; Gal 5:6),
no mention of the new covenant revelation spoken by the Son
in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers with its
myriads of commands and exhortations to holiness.
Actually, it is written in the Old Testament that God gave some statutes and ordinances (laws) that were bad and not to be followed
but
this is overlooked by most people. And with good reason. . .it was not God who gave them such statutes.
In Eze 20:23-25, the laws God gave them over to and the statutes they could not live by refer to the laws of their enemies to whom God gave them over (Dt 28:48; 2Chr 12:8), not to the laws of God.
You should really give a good and hard rethink to what you are saying here.
Rom 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Elin there seems to be some confusion in your post. At first I did not realize exactly what was your reference with the "we" in your post. It is obvious you do not understand that "we" establish the law through faith, which grammatically is understood as it is with what the law is established. Perhaps it would serve you well to diagram the sentences and prhrases before committing to having understood it.
Yes, in part, and only in part are you correct, we certainly do establish the law by the understood antecedant, by faith, thus, it is by our faith we establish the law.
I perceive you do this a lot in your creative displays of understanding and teaching the Word. All I am permitted to ask of you is to practice what you are preaching to me, and that is focus, for you are definitely not focusing when you stress "we" as replacing what is used to establish the law, and that is faith, no question
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Elin there seems to be some confusion in your post. At first I did not realize exactly what was your reference with the "we" in your post. It is obvious you do not understand that "we" establish the law through faith, which grammatically is understood as it is with what the law is established. Perhaps it would serve you well to diagram the sentences and prhrases before committing to having understood it.
Yes, in part, and only in part are you correct, we certainly do establish the law by the understood antecedant, by faith, thus, it is by our faith we establish the law.
I perceive you do this a lot in your creative displays of understanding and teaching the Word. All I am permitted to ask of you is to practice what you are preaching to me, and that is focus, for you are definitely not focusing when you stress "we" as replacing what is used to establish the law, and that is faith, no question
B
BradC
Guest
I think it would be wise for all Christians to contribute posts that define who is starting arguments for no reason other than to deny the law, by using God's grace for an excuse for this denial. This way even the guests will see the ones who are instigating contention, and just might keep this thread on track. It would give understanding of how to avoid arguing rather than posts that tell us why we should avoid certain parts of scripture that were written before the New Testament. We should be spiritually defining the law rather than defining it ONLY as physical attributes that will separate faith from it. If one describes the law only as condemnation, then they are saying it is not for the believer which also negates what Jesus said to satan making it of no effect. Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him , saying , It is written , That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. With this in mind, these types of exhortations endorse partial/quasi Christianity saying that the law has no edification purpose for Christians. The physical temple is gone, the spiritual temple is here.
Scriptures to contemplate. Romans 8:5-7
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
John 5:46-47
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
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C
cfultz3
Guest
Consider the follow: neither did He come to destroy it. It says that we who follow Him do establish the Law through our FAITH.
He indeed came to show us how to righteously walk before God through OBEDIENCE from our spirit, no longer from our flesh.
Consider also: If God placed the Law upon our hearts, then the Law is not dead to us, those whose faith establish the Law.
But, there still remains those parts of the Law which have not been prophetically fulfilled through Christ, those Laws which He commanded of us as our LORD, those Laws pertaining to Love. We need to ask ourselves this: if the Holy Spirit convicts through the Truth, then what is Truth? Yes, we have been told what is good before God and so, our Lord Jesus walks us to the Father on a path which is not offensive to the Father, a path which the Father has set up from eternity, that narrow path of righteousness, a non-lascivious path.
Has God's glory vanished also? Should we not still walk righteously on the path the LORD walks us on? Indeed, the glory of the Law has vanished, but we are reminded by the ministration of the Spirit that the Law which still applies to us is that Law Jesus told us to follow: Love. Love fulfills the Law and does not negate it.
Yet, the Spirit will not walk us to be lawless ones. He walks us to the known Will of the Father, that Will which tells us that those who are LAWLESS will not enter into the Kingdom of God. So, we who establish the Law ought to hearken unto the Spirit who reminds us of the Will of God that such an action of lawlessness will lead us off the pre-defined path God said is good before Him if we continue on that path.
Let us then trust (believe) Him as our Shepherd on the path He is walking us on and heed to the Will of God when we are convicted by the Sprint of walking contrary to that Will. Has not God written the Law upon our hearts, that Law which the Spirit uses to convict us of when we do deeds not in Love?
Let us not defile that TEMPLE, knowing that those who would will be thrown out and burnt. Let us trust that the LORD is walking us on the path which is pleasing before the Father and that trust would hearken unto the Spirit and obey that Will from God. That Will which is fulfilled through Love.
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B
BradC
Guest
Neither one of you can deny what this post communicates in terms of grace and truth and if you want all the verses to back it up I would be glad to do that. DO YOU DENY WHAT THIS POST IS SAYING and how it relates to the NT believer who is under grace and not the law? When the scriptures say that we are not under the law but under grace, what do you think that means, just the condemnation part of it? I don't think so. There are no ordinances or regulations to run our life any longer for they have been put away along with the flesh. We are spiritual beings that have the Spirit and we walk and are led by the Spirit. Our fruit is according to the Spirit and what we hear we hear from the Spirit. The Spirit even teaches us how to pray and makes intercession for us.
The law can't do any of that and has been made obsolete. That does not make the believer lawless because they have the HOLY Spirit. Try to go out and live in sin, as soon as you do you will find out very quickly just what role the Spirit has in your life to bring conviction into the heart and if you continue to grieve the Spirit what happens to your life in terms of growing in grace. The law is useless to do any of that and if you legislate the law to others or even yourself you strengthen sin. To get victory and overcome sin you must humble yourself and receive grace so that you can be restored back to having fellowship with the Lord through the agency of the Spirit and not through the letter of keeping the law. Do we have our fellowship with the Lord through the law or through the Holy Spirit and through the communion of the blood and body of Christ?
The things I have outlined in your post is exactly what I feel sure the Lord would say about what you teach scripture as saying. When you read all scripture teaches about using the pure blood of Christ to be used and using Christ as the high priest, the temple as not in the mortar and bricks at all, you are not understanding or recognizing truth as scripture explains this. To teach yourself to by in error, you have to ignore many scriptures saying that one scripture cancels another when that never ever happens. It is a way of announcing God by denying God.
This thread reminds me of a thread I started last year. The title was "I'm sick of arguing." Guess what, it turned into an argument about the Mosaic law. It was bad enough that the administrator had to prohibit any more posts. What about that? Who's behind this?
Because I have called , and ye refused ; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded ;But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; When your fear cometh as desolation , and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. (Proverbs 1:24-27)
Because I have called , and ye refused ; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded ;But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; When your fear cometh as desolation , and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. (Proverbs 1:24-27)
J
JesusIsAll
Guest
But what can you expect from a poor Christian, being graced with so much law on CC?
What I'm saying concerning what I posted before yours, is that the thread had nothing to do with the law. But there was one anti law person that brought the subject up without provocation. So I ask this. What can you expect from a poor Christian who is being graced with so much purposeful contention of preconceived ideas that they must argue about things that are not being addressed in the OP? So I ask again. Who is behind this (adding) instigation?
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J
JesusIsAll
Guest
C
cfultz3
Guest
If I disagreed with the verses, I would be in error. The verses you mentioned, I agree with.
I disagree with the poster, not the Scripture you spoke of.
We are not under the Law as that which dictates the righteous path to God, we, the Word having understood our infirmities, are under Grace where the Father understands that we might fall sometimes. Shall we sin (transgression of Law) because we are under grace? Nay.....I would not have known that lust is a sin if it were not for the Law having said, "Thou shall not covet". Therefore, grace does not liberate us from walking God's righteous path.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
What of the Law which is upheld by Love? How can we know what Love is if we destroy what God has said to be right before Him? How do we know what is evil before God if we destroy what God has said to be evil before Him?
What does the Spirit speak if not God's Will? Does He speak that we should walk contrary to God's known Will? Does He not convict us when we walk contrary to love? What rules does He use when He convicts us of that?
If we, those who follow Christ, establish the Law by our faith, then how can it be obsolete when it also says, 'For I delight in the law of God after the inward man'? If it is obsolete, how then can we delight in it?
How can we consent with the Law that it is good if it is obsolete?
By what does the Spirit convict? If you would, what does it say about those who are lawless?
Where there is a law, there is a remembrance of sin. But, where there is no law, there is no sin. We are told that we are under the Law from the Spirit sent by Christ. Shall we un-legislate that Law too, seeing that Law is useless? Or shall we concur that we cannot be lawless even as Christians whose faith upholds the Law? If law is obsolete for the Christian, although God seemed proper to have written it on our hearts, then we must also negate that Law from the Spirit.
Seeing that sin is the transgression of Law, and you say that the Law is obsolete, then how can a Christian sin if he has no law to transgress?
What happened to repent? What are we to repent of if we Christians have no law to say that we have transgressed against God or another? Why even say that we need to be restored back into fellowship with the LORD if we have never offended Him in the first place?
I agree. The Spirit is the Agent which reconciles us to God. I ask you to consider the base the Spirit use in order to convict us. That is, what does He use to say to us.....wait....don't do that...or ever, do this? Love? What does it fulfill? If we are loving, we are walking pleasingly before God upon His righteous path.
We have our fellowship with the LORD through faith because of the Body and Blood of Christ. Yet, we are to walk in the Light as He is in the Light. And we know that there is no shadow of darkness in the Light.
How has it become wrong to say that God's righteous path has rules to be guided by when even the Spirit guides by those Laws which are fulfilled by Love?