Stop Arguing about Law under Grace
- Thread starter JaumeJ
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I don't know how JaumeJ will answer your questions, but the way I would explain a "modern day pharisee" is one that refuses to adhere to the spiritual concepts of all God has ever said from the beginning, not just part.
John 2:7-8
7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past , and the true light now shineth.
The new commandment is that Jesus turned on the light because He is the light.
These sayings of God were given to the Israelites first, and now the Gentiles have been offered the same through Christ Jesus, Him being the firstborn from the dead. The offer is there and now it's up to both to take God at His word.
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
The offer is toward the entire populous of mankind.
Romans 2:9-10
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Concerning those that accused Paul of preaching against the traditions of their fathers, this was his response.
Act 24:10-16
10 Then Paul, after that the governor had beckoned unto him to speak , answered , Forasmuch as I know that thou hast been of many years a judge unto this nation, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself:
11 Because that thou mayest understand , that there are yet but twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem for to worship .
12 And they neither found me in the temple disputing with any man, neither raising up the people , neither in the synagogues, nor in the city: 13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.
14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow , that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men.
John 2:7-8
7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past , and the true light now shineth.
The new commandment is that Jesus turned on the light because He is the light.
These sayings of God were given to the Israelites first, and now the Gentiles have been offered the same through Christ Jesus, Him being the firstborn from the dead. The offer is there and now it's up to both to take God at His word.
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
The offer is toward the entire populous of mankind.
Romans 2:9-10
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Concerning those that accused Paul of preaching against the traditions of their fathers, this was his response.
Act 24:10-16
10 Then Paul, after that the governor had beckoned unto him to speak , answered , Forasmuch as I know that thou hast been of many years a judge unto this nation, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself:
11 Because that thou mayest understand , that there are yet but twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem for to worship .
12 And they neither found me in the temple disputing with any man, neither raising up the people , neither in the synagogues, nor in the city: 13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.
14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow , that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men.
The Pharisees are quite well pictured in the Gospels. A modern day pharisee is the same, only today.
If you need more background on this, they are those who taught rabbinical teachings as from God, today, the same holds true, those who teache what various theologies teach in place of the Word of God. You probably already knew this.
This thread is for mending, not for tearing down. Read the OP, and forgive my being suckered into that same old argument. Jesus Christ is Lord, and He suggests we learn from Him. I take that as a commandment.
If you need more background on this, they are those who taught rabbinical teachings as from God, today, the same holds true, those who teache what various theologies teach in place of the Word of God. You probably already knew this.
This thread is for mending, not for tearing down. Read the OP, and forgive my being suckered into that same old argument. Jesus Christ is Lord, and He suggests we learn from Him. I take that as a commandment.
Thank you for your commentary on scripture! It is wonderful.
Here, in different words is what I understand you are saying. Because of grace we are free of the rule of the law.We don’t have law as our government to rule over us, it is grace and our faith in the Lord that rules and gives us salvation.
This frees us to love and live freely, not in bondage to sin or of evil forces, but free to live for the Lord in spirit and truth. We have grace because of the faith in the Lord, and we can have the freedom that law leads us to because we know God is truth.
Satan speaks to the Pharisees about the law, telling them to obey it in the letter but withholds the truth of the law from them. Satan uses their own egos to work through, telling them how great they are in their obedience to the letter rather than how great the Lord is in the truth of the law.
Here, in different words is what I understand you are saying. Because of grace we are free of the rule of the law.We don’t have law as our government to rule over us, it is grace and our faith in the Lord that rules and gives us salvation.
This frees us to love and live freely, not in bondage to sin or of evil forces, but free to live for the Lord in spirit and truth. We have grace because of the faith in the Lord, and we can have the freedom that law leads us to because we know God is truth.
Satan speaks to the Pharisees about the law, telling them to obey it in the letter but withholds the truth of the law from them. Satan uses their own egos to work through, telling them how great they are in their obedience to the letter rather than how great the Lord is in the truth of the law.
The problem is the focus.
Jesus did not live under the new covenant, but under the law,
and those to whom he preached were under the law.
His teachings reflect that fact.
The new covenant of grace and all its attending truths
could not be revealed until after his death,
and was revealed to Paul by Jesus personally (2Co 12:1-10).
To "follow the example of Christ" is to have our main focus
on what was spoken to those under the new covenant
by Christ the Son in these last days (Heb 1:2) through the NT writers,
rather than having our main focus on what was written by Moses and
the other prophets of old (Heb 1:1).
Under the new covenant we are to focus on, to lay hold of, to apprehend, and
to live in the truth and power of Christ's new covenant revelation; e.g.,
condemnation of all the unregenerate as unrighteous (Gal 3:22),
justification (Ro 3:28),
gift of righteousness from God (Ro 5:17),
faith in the blood of Jesus is atonement for one's sin (Ro 3:25),
God's sovereign choice in rejecting Israel (Ro 9-11),
The olive tree, the one body of Christ, in whom abide both
branches of Israel and branches of Gentiles (Ro 11),
All who rely on observing the Law are under a curse (Gal 3:10),
The promises were spoken to Abraham and Christ only (Gal 3:16),
Believers in Christ are the seed of Abraham and hiers according to the promise
(Gal 3:29),
Believers are seated now in the heavenlies with Christ (Eph 2:6),
Believers are the body of Christ (Eph 1:22-23) because
Believers are the wife (Eph 5:31-32) and bride (Rev 21:9)
of Christ the Lamb (Jn 1:29) in the two-in-one enfleshment
of the marital union (Eph 5:28-32),
Believers were chosen to be sanctified before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4),
Believers were predestined to be adopted as sons of God (Eph 1:5),
In Christ dwells the fullness of God bodily (Eph 1:23),
All things were created by Christ, in heaven, earth, visible, invisible, spiritual forces (Col 1:16),
All things are sustained by Christ (Col 1:17),
Etc., etc., etc.
If Jesus' new covenant revelation doesn't light your fire, capturing your focus,
then your wood's wet.
Jesus did not live under the new covenant, but under the law,
and those to whom he preached were under the law.
His teachings reflect that fact.
The new covenant of grace and all its attending truths
could not be revealed until after his death,
and was revealed to Paul by Jesus personally (2Co 12:1-10).
To "follow the example of Christ" is to have our main focus
on what was spoken to those under the new covenant
by Christ the Son in these last days (Heb 1:2) through the NT writers,
rather than having our main focus on what was written by Moses and
the other prophets of old (Heb 1:1).
Under the new covenant we are to focus on, to lay hold of, to apprehend, and
to live in the truth and power of Christ's new covenant revelation; e.g.,
condemnation of all the unregenerate as unrighteous (Gal 3:22),
justification (Ro 3:28),
gift of righteousness from God (Ro 5:17),
faith in the blood of Jesus is atonement for one's sin (Ro 3:25),
God's sovereign choice in rejecting Israel (Ro 9-11),
The olive tree, the one body of Christ, in whom abide both
branches of Israel and branches of Gentiles (Ro 11),
All who rely on observing the Law are under a curse (Gal 3:10),
The promises were spoken to Abraham and Christ only (Gal 3:16),
Believers in Christ are the seed of Abraham and hiers according to the promise
(Gal 3:29),
Believers are seated now in the heavenlies with Christ (Eph 2:6),
Believers are the body of Christ (Eph 1:22-23) because
Believers are the wife (Eph 5:31-32) and bride (Rev 21:9)
of Christ the Lamb (Jn 1:29) in the two-in-one enfleshment
of the marital union (Eph 5:28-32),
Believers were chosen to be sanctified before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4),
Believers were predestined to be adopted as sons of God (Eph 1:5),
In Christ dwells the fullness of God bodily (Eph 1:23),
All things were created by Christ, in heaven, earth, visible, invisible, spiritual forces (Col 1:16),
All things are sustained by Christ (Col 1:17),
Etc., etc., etc.
If Jesus' new covenant revelation doesn't light your fire, capturing your focus,
then your wood's wet.
Last edited:
I like your explanation and also JaumeJ's. With all the arguing that has gone on, I have even missed the point that a human viewpoint sees one way, and the spiritual viewpoint sees another. I look forward to discussing the finer details of the truth without argument or contention, for that's where we will find the greater beauty of our Lord, and all that He has fulfilled for our sakes. What enormous grace we have received through Christ! Then we can climb out of the stalemate it appears we are in.
Last edited:
This can cause contention the way post 55 was issued
see post 49 and see how elin put it with her post that I was not addressing
Then read this post to see all I said about the grace of God to RedTent.
see post 49 and see how elin put it with her post that I was not addressing
Then read this post to see all I said about the grace of God to RedTent.
Last edited:
I wish I truly understood this! I know the Lord is telling us something important, but I have never been able to understand.
Why should we count the omer between Passover and Pentecost? I hadn't heard before that it was mentioned in the Feast of Tabernacles. Relating it to a promise makes sense. Passover is a promise of the Holy Spirit given to us through Christ as happened at Pentecost. Counting the 49 days between Passover and Pentecost would be counting the days of promise. And we have a wonderful promise of Christ returning in the last days.
Why should we count the omer between Passover and Pentecost? I hadn't heard before that it was mentioned in the Feast of Tabernacles. Relating it to a promise makes sense. Passover is a promise of the Holy Spirit given to us through Christ as happened at Pentecost. Counting the 49 days between Passover and Pentecost would be counting the days of promise. And we have a wonderful promise of Christ returning in the last days.
I agree.
In the feasts it is call a tenth deal.
I found a scripture referenced in Leviticus 6:20-21 that helped, and found that the “deal” really was a bigger “deal” than what I first estimated. It reads as follows; “This is the offering of Aaron and of his sons, which they shall offer unto the LORD in the day when he is anointed; the tenth part of an “ephah”of fine flour for a meat offering perpetual, half of it in the morning, and half thereof at night. In a pan it shall be made with oil; and when it is baken, thou shalt bring it in: and the baken pieces of the meat offering shalt thou offer for a sweet savour unto the LORD.”
By understanding that ten percent of an “ephah”is not the full “deal,” the answer is found in Exodus 16:36 where it says “Now an “omer” is the tenth part of an “ephah.”
So a deal is an omer. For all who might be interested see post to compare
Numbers 29:12-16 (KJV)
12 And on the fifteenth day of the seventh month ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work, and ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days:
13 And ye shall offer a burnt offering, a sacrifice made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD; thirteen young bullocks, two rams, and fourteen lambs of the first year; they shall be without blemish:
14 And their meat offering shall be of flour mingled with oil, three tenth deals unto every bullock of the thirteen bullocks, two tenth deals to each ram of the two rams,
15 And a several tenth deal to each lamb of the fourteen lambs:
16 And one kid of the goats for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, his meat offering, and his drink offering.
Deals of flour (representing the word) were offered with many offerings and all feasts. There are promises from the word of God in all of them.
In the feasts it is call a tenth deal.
I found a scripture referenced in Leviticus 6:20-21 that helped, and found that the “deal” really was a bigger “deal” than what I first estimated. It reads as follows; “This is the offering of Aaron and of his sons, which they shall offer unto the LORD in the day when he is anointed; the tenth part of an “ephah”of fine flour for a meat offering perpetual, half of it in the morning, and half thereof at night. In a pan it shall be made with oil; and when it is baken, thou shalt bring it in: and the baken pieces of the meat offering shalt thou offer for a sweet savour unto the LORD.”
By understanding that ten percent of an “ephah”is not the full “deal,” the answer is found in Exodus 16:36 where it says “Now an “omer” is the tenth part of an “ephah.”
So a deal is an omer. For all who might be interested see post to compare
Numbers 29:12-16 (KJV)
12 And on the fifteenth day of the seventh month ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work, and ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days:
13 And ye shall offer a burnt offering, a sacrifice made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD; thirteen young bullocks, two rams, and fourteen lambs of the first year; they shall be without blemish:
14 And their meat offering shall be of flour mingled with oil, three tenth deals unto every bullock of the thirteen bullocks, two tenth deals to each ram of the two rams,
15 And a several tenth deal to each lamb of the fourteen lambs:
16 And one kid of the goats for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, his meat offering, and his drink offering.
Deals of flour (representing the word) were offered with many offerings and all feasts. There are promises from the word of God in all of them.
Last edited: