It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

[phil36]

Hi Atwood..

I'll leave my answer here --

What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. [SUP]10 [/SUP]As it is written:“There is no one righteous, not even one;
[SUP]11 [/SUP] there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.

 

[newbirth]

Re: ROMANS 3:23 ETC.

Now how many years had Abe been saved, declared righteous, justified by faith alone (no works) Romans 4, before Isaac was even born? Romans 4 speaks of the justification by faith (alone) which the ungodly receives at the point where He believes.

James adds in the declaration of righteousness which a godly man (already long ago justified by faith) gets when he does a good work out of faith in the Christian life. This latter has nothing to do with salvation, but with recognition of righteousness.

Atwood when you heard God's word and you believed what God's word said what did you do?

 

[know1]

Re: ROMANS 3:23 ETC.

Now how many years had Abe been saved, declared righteous, justified by faith alone (no works) Romans 4, before Isaac was even born? Romans 4 speaks of the justification by faith (alone) which the ungodly receives at the point where He believes.

It is true that Paul said we are justified by faith alone, but He wasn't talking about the same kind of works that James was.
Paul was talking about the work of the law, while James talks about works of faith. Two entirely different kinds of works.
Paul was talking about doing what the law said, trying to justify themselves through merits, by being obedient to the law. As though they deserved heaven because they were good enough.
James is talking about a work of faith that defies logic.
For example, if you are sick and in bed, and read that God already bore that sickness in His body and healed you 2000 years ago and you believe what He wrote, though you still feel sick, after you pray, you get out of the bed and start about your day, because only the sick stay in bed, the well get up and go. After, and only after you start to act on the promise of God, will God heal you of that sickness and not before.
That is something like the faith James is talking about.
Faith is not faith until you act on what you believe, it is only believing if you don't act.

James adds in the declaration of righteousness which a godly man (already long ago justified by faith) gets when he does a good work out of faith in the Christian life. This latter has nothing to do with salvation, but with recognition of righteousness.

Let me quote it verbatim again to you.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
I didn't say it first, my word is nothing, but God wrote it, an if it is in the bible then it is truth and cannot be change or ignored.

 

[Hoffco]

Abraham had works of faith a soon as he left his home town and obeyed God to move. The technical, alone, kind of faith is initial for our righteous standing with God; but it is never "alone", except for a split second, OR, for a life time of trusting in the blood of Jesus ; but, the moment we believe we trust and rely and obey God's word. We are really obeying God the moment we are born. Our natural instincts are to survive and we can only survive by obeying our natural desire to love and have peace.

 

[Hoffco]

Re: ROMANS 3:23 ETC.

The big problem of man is that his fallen, sinful nature out ways his image of God nature, because the image of God nature is so small, it can not survive unless governed and guided by a godly society. love, Hoffco

 

[Atwood]

Mr. Bob Dylan appears to be someone who truly came to saving faith but then fell away.

My faith stands not on someone's interp of Dylan's life, but on the Word of God.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish,

Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again to a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

"begat us again to a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance"

The inheritance is based upon a birth, the believer is begotten again; now in a new race, the family of God. Being in a new family with a new Father (God Himself), we logically get an inheritance.

And this inheritance is
incorruptible,
undefiled,
fades not away,
reserved in heaven

The heirs (begotten of God) are
kept guarded by the God Who begat them.

Dylan's life is irrelevant.
The life of the Savior is relevant -- He ever lives to make intercession for the children of God.

He Who began a good work in you (the believer) will complete it.

 

[Atwood]

Our natural instincts are to survive and we can only survive by obeying our natural desire to love and have peace.

Well, that is Hoffco, not the scripture. Thus one may consider the word of Hoffco as hypotheses to verify or ignore & let Hoffco do his own verifying, since it is his claims.

Hoffco saith, "we can only survive."

But is Hoffco a we?
Sometimes Hoffco seemeth on the beam & other times he burneth strange incense.

Hoffco saith, "we can only survive by obeying."

The Word of God saith,

By grace you have been saved through faith, . . . not of works. Thus the "we" may rightly reject this lopothesis.

We survive by the power of God, not by our obeying works.

"who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation," scripture that came via Apostle Pete.

Imagine lopothesist at the Pearly Gates:

Let me in , let me in, let me in,
Apostle Pete: Not by the hair of my chiny, chin, chin,
You tried to survive by obeying, and didn't last a day, in many things stumbling. Now if you had done the "by the power of God guarded" routine, you would have gotten in.

Pete pulls a long lever, under lopothesist's feet a trap door appears into a black hole with flames at the bottom As he starts to fall, Pete (being merciful) throwns over his head a pair of asbestos undies before Pete stomps on his fingers trying to hold one the opening of the door.

 

[Atwood]

Re: ROMANS 3:23 ETC.

It is true that Paul said we are justified by faith alone, but He wasn't talking about the same kind of works that James was. Paul was talking about the work of the law, while James talks about works of faith. Two entirely different kinds of works.

The supposed works are the same type. In all cases the only kind of works in mind are those in obedience to God. To have good works requires commandments to obey, and the obedience to such commands. There is no other kind of good works.

The difference is that justification by faith alone pertains to the ungodly as Romans 4 precisely says. Justification by faith is what Abraham had when he was ungodly and changed by trusting YHWH. At that point he had no works, & was justified by faith alone.

Many, many years later, Abe was not ungodly, but godly, and his obedience in offering Isaac was a good work which God approved of and which rightly declared that Abe was righteous. The obedience with Isaac was a result of salvation. The original faith in God years before got Abe declared righteous without works. The original justification was part of the salvation Abe got. The second years later was not a part of salvation, but the result of it.

[quote\For example, if you are sick and in bed, and read that God already bore that sickness in His body and healed you 2000 years ago and you believe what He wrote, though you still feel sick, after you pray, you get out of the bed and start about your day, because only the sick stay in bed, the well get up and go.[/quote]

Total nonsense. We don't get all the blessings of the atonement in this life; we have to wait for the drastic physical healing with the resurrected body. What you speak of is delusion. Will you tell everyone to throw away their glasses? Will you berate old person for having body decay when they are old for their lack of faith? Tell me when your teeth regenerate and you no longer have any fillings. And go tell an amputee that his leg should pop back out good as new.

Don't make up promises that are not there.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, [many years after he had been justified by faith alone] when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
I didn't say it first, my word is nothing, but God wrote it, an if it is in the bible then it is truth and cannot be change or ignored.

But one must study to show oneself approved of God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

And you need to be born again, saved to understand it.

Thus if you have been regarding Christ only as a chance-giver, repent & trust Him as Savior.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.

 

[newbirth]

Well, that is Hoffco, not the scripture. Thus one may consider the word of Hoffco as hypotheses to verify or ignore & let Hoffco do his own verifying, since it is his claims.

Hoffco saith, "we can only survive."

But is Hoffco a we?
Sometimes Hoffco seemeth on the beam & other times he burneth strange incense.

Hoffco saith, "we can only survive by obeying."

The Word of God saith,

By grace you have been saved through faith, . . . not of works. Thus the "we" may rightly reject this lopothesis.

We survive by the power of God, not by our obeying works.

"who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation," scripture that came via Apostle Pete.

Imagine lopothesist at the Pearly Gates:

Let me in , let me in, let me in,
Apostle Pete: Not by the hair of my chiny, chin, chin,
You tried to survive by obeying, and didn't last a day, in many things stumbling. Now if you had done the "by the power of God guarded" routine, you would have gotten in.

Pete pulls a long lever, under lopothesist's feet a trap door appears into a black hole with flames at the bottom As he starts to fall, Pete (being merciful) throwns over his head a pair of asbestos undies before Pete stomps on his fingers trying to hold one the opening of the door.

The faith of which you speak is it with or without works? ....because faith without works is dead...can such faith save you?
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

 

[Atwood]

Re: ROMANS 3:23 ETC.

I have wondered what part of,'by works a man is justified' that people can't see nor understand?

The blind & ungodly cannot see indeed.
Here is a list of what they are unlikely to understand:

1) the unsaved have no good works which could justify them.
2) Abe was justifed by faith apart from works (Rom 4), and Abe is our example in salvation.
3) The justification which is a part of salvation is for the ungodly (Rom 4).
4) The justification by faith apart from works is a part of salvation which is by faith apart from works.
5) When Abe got this declaration of righteousness "by works" in James, it was many, many years after Abe had been made righteous by faith alone.
6) The declaration of righteousness (justification) by works is not salvation, but a declaration that a man is in fact righteous.
7) By grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, not of works.

 

[Atwood]

Re: ROMANS 3:23 ETC.

Interesting isn't it how if one sets out the evidence for OSS = Once Saved, Saved, the opposition comes out not content with arguing specifically over Eternal Security (abundantly proven), but some even want to argue for salvation by works!

Of course if salvation is by works then one doesn't have to admit one is so depraved that one's works are abominable (that is a pride saver). And if salvation is by works, persons (except perhaps for the self-righteous objector himself) should never have security, since their eternal destiny does not depend upon the faithfulness of the Savior, but on a man's own good works.

For all the time wasted serving satan, raising smoke, causing confusion, if a man would merely take a minute to actually trust Christ as Savior, his problems would be solved.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins,

whether or not the self-righteous Pharisees can't stand that idea or not.

 

[know1]

Re: ROMANS 3:23 ETC.

The blind & ungodly cannot see indeed.
Here is a list of what they are unlikely to understand:

1) the unsaved have no good works which could justify them.
2) Abe was justifed by faith apart from works (Rom 4), and Abe is our example in salvation.
3) The justification which is a part of salvation is for the ungodly (Rom 4).
4) The justification by faith apart from works is a part of salvation which is by faith apart from works.
5) When Abe got this declaration of righteousness "by works" in James, it was many, many years after Abe had been made righteous by faith alone.
6) The declaration of righteousness (justification) by works is not salvation, but a declaration that a man is in fact righteous.
7) By grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, not of works.

You missed one about the unsaved or the children of the devil.
They CANNOT receive the truth. They are always learning but NEVER able to come to the truth.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

 

[know1]

Re: ROMANS 3:23 ETC.

The supposed works are the same type. In all cases the only kind of works in mind are those in obedience to God. To have good works requires commandments to obey, and the obedience to such commands. There is no other kind of good works.

Same word, different kind of works. They are not the same, as surely as the difference between loving my wife vs. the lost.
Same word, different meaning entirely. One is of the law, the other of promise.

The difference is that justification by faith alone pertains to the ungodly as Romans 4 precisely says. Justification by faith is what Abraham had when he was ungodly and changed by trusting YHWH. At that point he had no works, & was justified by faith alone.

Sir you are calling God a liar.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
The subject of the chapter is about works for faith to be alive and active. Dead means DEAD.



[quote FROM KNOW1\For example, if you are sick and in bed, and read that God already bore that sickness in His body and healed you 2000 years ago and you believe what He wrote, though you still feel sick, after you pray, you get out of the bed and start about your day, because only the sick stay in bed, the well get up and go.

Total nonsense. We don't get all the blessings of the atonement in this life; we have to wait for the drastic physical healing with the resurrected body. What you speak of is delusion. Will you tell everyone to throw away their glasses? Will you berate old person for having body decay when they are old for their lack of faith? Tell me when your teeth regenerate and you no longer have any fillings. And go tell an amputee that his leg should pop back out good as new.
Don't make up promises that are not there.

Obviously you do not know the promises of God sir, nor have you walked in them.
What is nonsense to you and to all UNBELIEVERS, is happening to many people all over the world, all the time, because they chose to believe what God said, instead of what the intellectuals told them.
What I mentioned is so small compared to some of the wonders God is doing through those who do believe.
Anyone can know what is written and quote it, but until you believe what God said, you will never come to the truth.
You need to repent sir and believe the gospel.
I didn't write the promises, God did. I'm just simple enough to believe what He said, and not try to make excuses as to why you don't see it in your life.
If you are mean spirited, stupid, or ignorant of God's word you would tell someone to throw away their glasses.
You show forth your ignorance of what faith is sir. If the person doesn't have faith, it will be in vain.
While you grow old my youth will be renewed like the eagle, because the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead, quickens, makes alive, regenerates, and renews my mortal fleshly body.
I have seen limbs grow back, yes, but not by my faith.
With God ALL things are possible TO THEM THAT BELIEVE!!!

But one must study to show oneself approved of God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

And you need to be born again, saved to understand it.

True. In order for one to rightly divide the word of God, since it is spiritually discerned, one must be born again.

 

[know1]

Re: ROMANS 3:23 ETC.

Interesting isn't it how if one sets out the evidence for OSS = Once Saved, Saved, the opposition comes out not content with arguing specifically over Eternal Security (abundantly proven), but some even want to argue for salvation by works!

Of course if salvation is by works then one doesn't have to admit one is so depraved that one's works are abominable (that is a pride saver). And if salvation is by works, persons (except perhaps for the self-righteous objector himself) should never have security, since their eternal destiny does not depend upon the faithfulness of the Savior, but on a man's own good works.

For all the time wasted serving satan, raising smoke, causing confusion, if a man would merely take a minute to actually trust Christ as Savior, his problems would be solved.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins,

whether or not the self-righteous Pharisees can't stand that idea or not.

How is it that some who are so intelligent can be so blind?
Sir you are not even able to see or perceive what I am talking about, even as a child cannot comprehend sex.
You are soooo intelligent, a true intellectual, but as I see it, truly blind to what is written.
This may sound mean, which I am not trying to be, even though you have already said the same about me, I know why, but I still have a difficult time believing it or understanding how you cannot see something so clear.
Sir, your life is wrapped up in salvation only, so that is as far as you will get. For faith comes by hearing, so you cannot receive the strong meat, much less just meat of the word of God.
On the other hand, I am going to strive to walk AS Christ, partaking of the divine nature of God, healing the sick, raising the dead, going from one level of faith to the next.

 

[newbirth]

Re: ROMANS 3:23 ETC.

The difference is that justification by faith alone pertains to the ungodly as Romans 4 precisely says. Justification by faith is what Abraham had when he was ungodly and changed by trusting YHWH. At that point he had no works, & was justified by faith alone.

Many, many years later, Abe was not ungodly, but godly, and his obedience in offering Isaac was a good work which God approved of and which rightly declared that Abe was righteous. The obedience with Isaac was a result of salvation. The original faith in God years before got Abe declared righteous without works. The original justification was part of the salvation Abe got. The second years later was not a part of salvation, but the result of it.

The first mention of Abram in the scripture aside from the genealogy is him obeying the word of God. You say he had no works look at vs 4....you are talking rubbish ...show where Abram was ungodly...You disrespect the man of God...

12 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]So Abram departed, as the Lord had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And the Lord appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the Lord, who appeared unto him.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And he removed from thence unto a mountain on the east of Bethel, and pitched his tent, having Bethel on the west, and Hai on the east: and there he builded an altar unto the Lord, and called upon the name of the Lord.

Abram faith always had works....Do you think he did not go look at the sky then ask God whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it ? But the fact remains He always believed in the Lord....Was it not the same promise from the beginning? But he never gave up hope....and keeps on obeying God

[SUP]
5 [/SUP]And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And he said unto him, I am the Lord that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And he said, Lord God, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?

[SUP]9 [/SUP]And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not.

 

[Atwood]

Re: ROMANS 3:23 ETC.

Deluded persons may post on here claiming spiritual superiority and that all manner of healing and physical well being is guaranteed to the man who trusts the Lord for it. But this is in fact nonsense. While the cross does provide for physical healing, not all the blessings of the cross are realized in this life. We will never have perfect bodies until the resurrection.

Fools discard glasses pretending they can see well without them because they are healed. All kinds of fantastic stories may be claimed, but they are not supported by scripture.

Paul had a thorn in the flesh from which he just had to endure with God's grace being sufficient for him.

The Lord has no where promised perfect physical health or that we shall not have a decline in physical ability as old age comes on. If you are 50, just see if you can run as fast as you could when you were 20.

Trophimus I left at Miletus sick (2 Tim 4).

There is no promise of perfect physical health in the Bible for this life, and no promise that your hair won't turn grey. There is no promise that your teeth fillings will fill up with tooth again. There is no promise of a restoration of an amputation.

The fool believes every word.

 

[Atwood]

Re: ROMANS 3:23 ETC.

The only kind of works in question for salvation is good works. The only things known to be good works are works done in obedience to God. All good works are works of obedience. And all good works come of faith, for anything done apart from faith is sin.
Rom 14 "whatsoever is not of faith is sin"
The solution to the apparent contradiction between prophets Paul & James on justification by works is not explainable as "two different kinds of works."

No kind of works save.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, not of works lest anyone should boast.

While no kind of works save, what about justification? Justification is a declaration that a man is righteous. As to the unbeliever, there is none who does good, no not one. All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. Justification (a declaration of righteousness) is part of salvation.

Rom 4 says that the ungodly are declared righteous by faith.

"For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. For what saith the scripture? 4And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness. "

The difference with the justification by works in James is that James does not speak of works done by the ungodly (who have no good works); James speaks of good works done by a man who has trusted in the Lord for salvation, been declared righteous apart from works, which man goes ahead and does good works in the Christian life, like Abe offering Isaac. The good works of believing men (already made righteous by God's grace apart from works) does declare that they are righteous; thus there is a justification by works when a godly man does some good work. But this is not (nor is it called) salvation.

 

[Atwood]

Re: ROMANS 3:23 ETC.

The first mention of Abram in the scripture aside from the genealogy is him obeying the word of God. You say he had no works

It is the Lord who says Abe had no good works when He was saved, but that Abe was ungodly. In fact there is no salvation for anyone who is "righteous." He came not to call the righteous, but sinners.

So if you would be saved, NewB, you must take the place of the Publican, confessing to be a sinner.

Whatever is mentioned first in the Genesis story is irrelevant; the Lord explains what happened in Romans 4.

For if Abraham was justifiedby works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.

 

[Kerry]

If your looking for a free ride then talk to Atwood, If you want to know the truth, then don't talk to atwood.

 

[newbirth]

Re: ROMANS 3:23 ETC.

It is the Lord who says Abe had no good works when He was saved, but that Abe was ungodly. In fact there is no salvation for anyone who is "righteous." He came not to call the righteous, but sinners.

So if you would be saved, NewB, you must take the place of the Publican, confessing to be a sinner.

Whatever is mentioned first in the Genesis story is irrelevant; the Lord explains what happened in Romans 4.

For if Abraham was justifiedby works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.

You still have not shown Abram as ungodly...where did God say he was ungodly Abram was not under law so he could not be justified by works of the law just as believers now are not under works of the law and cannot be justified by works of the law. That is why the scripture says in one place he was justified by works....Wasn’t Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? And another place he was not justified by works...If Abraham was justified by works, he has something to brag about—but not before God. You cannot call the word of God irrelevant...that is disrectful, first you lie and say God said Abram was ungodly. Ungodly men do not obey God...that is why we have the Genesis account to show.
[h=3]The Lord’s First Promise to Abram[/h]12 Yahweh said to Abram,
“Leave your land,
your relatives,
and your father’s home.
Go to the land that I will show you.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]I will make you a great nation,
I will bless you.
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you, I will curse.
Through you every family on earth will be blessed.”

It was at the fourth time when God gave him the same promise Abram still believed and did not doubt...and God counted his faith as righteousness. That does not mean he was ungodly, and suddenly got faith...he was obeying and following God since the first promise.

You disrespect the OT scripture you disrespect God...you are very disrespectful person Atwood..