It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

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Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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Re: ROMANS 3:23 ETC.

On the one hand , we are saved by faith; but , on the other hand we are saved, justified,
by works.[heresy!] All based on the BLOOD of Jesus, but the BLOOD by itself saves no one, it must be APPLIDED by the Spirit. Don't teach HYPER Calvinism. Love Hoffco
Scripture is clear that the sinner is not justified by works. Mentioning the word "Calvinism" proves nothing -- straw man.

If you want to post on how to be saved, Quote the Bible. Neither Hoffco nor Calvin proves a thing.

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. 3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness. 6 Even as David also pronounceth blessing upon the man, unto whom God reckoneth righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.


Rom. 4:9
Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness. 10 How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them; 12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision.

13
For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: 15 for the law worketh wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression. 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were. 18 Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be.

19
And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was reckoned unto him; 24 but for our sake also, unto whom it shall be reckoned, who believe on him that raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up for our trespasses, and was raised for our justification.



Rom. 5:1
Being therefore justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only so, but we also rejoice in our tribulations: knowing that tribulation worketh stedfastness; 4 and stedfastness, approvedness; and approvedness, hope: 5 and hope putteth not to shame; because the love of God hath been shed abroad in our hearts through the Holy Spirit which was given unto us. 6 For while we were yet weak, in due season Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: for peradventure for the good man some one would even dare to die. 8 But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him. 10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life; 11 and not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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Paul answers the objections that eternal security will lead to lawlessness...but I leave you to red Paul for yourself.

Phil
Phil, what is tragic is when lawless men object to salvation because salvation would bring lawlessness. The very persons who need salvation as the only escape from lawlessness object to it. Could it be that the real motive is not that they abhor lawlessness, but they abhor having to admit that they are lawless, depraved, and must be saved by grace -- that they will not admit that they are so bad as to require grace?
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
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Re: ROMANS 3:23 ETC.

I think we need to center upon what are the "works of the laws"? To me "the works of the law" are not the moral laws, so much, as the ordinances as sabbath keeping, circumcision and dietary laws, washings etc.. We know we can not be saved and disobey the moral laws of God. Rom.2:13 "...the doers of the law will be justified;" rom.3:31"...faith...establish the law." Real salvation establishes law keeping, being moral, godly person. Your TYPE of "faith only" establishes braking the law. But, LOVE is, the moral law keeping. IS IT NOT?
Hoffco, I put it to you to verify, but it seems to me that when scripture speaks of obeying the law and man's failure to do so, inability to do so; the argument does not depend upon what set of commandments are meant; the commandment set could be Moses, the "Teachings of Jesus," or the orders given to the Church. Whatever the set of commandments is, man is unable to do them. The moral frustration that is realized by setting the will to do the law is inevitable and should be a school master to lead us to the Savior.

We need to recognize our moral depravity and turn in faith the the One who gave His blood to help us in our desperate need.

Nothing in my hands I bring,
Simply to thy cross I cling.

God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son
that whosoever believes in Him should not perish,
but have everlasting life.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
For He shall save His people from their sins.
 
Jan 27, 2013
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there once was a story told to me,(or i read it) about foot prints in the sand. when the going was hard, there, was one set of foot prints,ie when god was carrying me/us etc. when it was easy, there was two sets of foot prints. me/us etc walking beside god.
moral, if god, has never carried you, out of trouble, then how can you clame to know him.
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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Re: ROMANS 3:23 ETC.

Scripture is clear that the sinner is not justified by works.
To say such a thing is to deny the word as truth.
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
The obvious answer is, yes.
To say otherwise is to deny the simple message of what faith is. Faith simply doesn't work without some type of work or action that corresponds to your faith.
 
Jan 27, 2013
4,769
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Re: ROMANS 3:23 ETC.

To say such a thing is to deny the word as truth.
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
The obvious answer is, yes.
To say otherwise is to deny the simple message of what faith is. Faith simply doesn't work without some type of work or action that corresponds to your faith.
the guy on, one of the other crosses, proves you wrong. and you read the bible lol.
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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Re: ROMANS 3:23 ETC.

the guy on, one of the other crosses, proves you wrong. and you read the bible lol.
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
I didn't just read it, I understood it and believed it AS IT IS WRITTEN.
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
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Re: ROMANS 3:23 ETC.

the guy on, one of the other crosses, proves you wrong. and you read the bible lol.
Thus proving know1's point that faith without works is fruitless. The guy on the other cross did'nt confess his sins before he died like the first sinner did when he said to Jesus, "remember me when you come into thy kingdom." Luke 23:42-43 is where this is stated and Jesus replies to the sinner, "you will be with me in Paradise today." So obviously, the sinner had faith and did a work to exercise that faith. :)

Originally Posted by know1

To say such a thing is to deny the word as truth.
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
The obvious answer is, yes.
To say otherwise is to deny the simple message of what faith is. Faith simply doesn't work without some type of work or action that corresponds to your faith.
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
3,100
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Re: ROMANS 3:23 ETC.

Thus proving know1's point that faith without works is fruitless. The guy on the other cross did'nt confess his sins before he died like the first sinner did when he said to Jesus, "remember me when you come into thy kingdom." Luke 23:42-43 is where this is stated and Jesus replies to the sinner, "you will be with me in Paradise today." So obviously, the sinner had faith and did a work to exercise that faith. :)

Originally Posted by know1

To say such a thing is to deny the word as truth.
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
The obvious answer is, yes.
To say otherwise is to deny the simple message of what faith is. Faith simply doesn't work without some type of work or action that corresponds to your faith.
Salvation starts with faith, and if you don't have faith, you can repent all you want and say Jesus is lord, but nothing will happen until you apply the faith of God.
Faith simply does NOT work without works. I have tried it many times in the past, and it failed every time.
But when you put corresponding action to what you are believing God for, such as speaking forth God's word, KNOWING that it IS DONE, it will work like gravity, every time, without fail.
The word of God is like the laws that govern the natural world as we know it. It is law. It will work for everyone every time, if you do what the bible says.
 
Mar 28, 2014
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Re: ROMANS 3:23 ETC.

Scripture is clear that the sinner is not justified by works. Mentioning the word "Calvinism" proves nothing -- straw man.

If you want to post on how to be saved, Quote the Bible. Neither Hoffco nor Calvin proves a thing.

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. 3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness. 6 Even as David also pronounceth blessing upon the man, unto whom God reckoneth righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.


Rom. 4:9
Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness. 10 How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them; 12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision.

13
For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: 15 for the law worketh wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression. 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were. 18 Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be.

19
And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was reckoned unto him; 24 but for our sake also, unto whom it shall be reckoned, who believe on him that raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up for our trespasses, and was raised for our justification.



Rom. 5:1
Being therefore justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only so, but we also rejoice in our tribulations: knowing that tribulation worketh stedfastness; 4 and stedfastness, approvedness; and approvedness, hope: 5 and hope putteth not to shame; because the love of God hath been shed abroad in our hearts through the Holy Spirit which was given unto us. 6 For while we were yet weak, in due season Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: for peradventure for the good man some one would even dare to die. 8 But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him. 10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life; 11 and not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Atwood you have to try to retain what you read...not just paste scripture to support a doctrine of man... but rely on the Spirit of God to bear witness and confifm what you read.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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Hi Atwood,

I don't think I have met someone who is unsaved say they object because salvation would bring about lawlessness. However, those who are self righteous and believe that they can work their way into salvation would probably say so, and it's this back drop that Paul answers their objections before they started to point fingers.

I think it takes a gracious God to give one grace in order to see His full glory.. and to deeply see the depths of sin in one's own heart. For if God does not give it no one would seek it.

"What God requires of us he himself works in us, or it is not done. He that commands faith, holiness, and love, creates them by the power of his grace..." - Matthew Henry
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
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48
Re: ROMANS 3:23 ETC.

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Why go over the same thing, over and over. Justified means "declared righteous." As the Bible clearly indicates, Abraham was justified by faith (so says James also) apart from any works, referring to the time when Abraham was saved. Many years later, after being saved, Abraham was challenged to offer Isaac as a sacrifice. Abraham obeyed, and that obedience (long after he was saved) declared that Abe was justified.

At the point of salvation, a sinner is justified, declared righteous apart from any works, just by faith. After a man is saved the good works which follow his salvation do declare that he is righteous -- but they do not save him. Salvation is by grace through faith.

Now NewB, is it not time for you to just trust Christ as Savior (instead of chance-giver) and to repent of spreading confusion?

Rom. 4:1
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. 3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him
who does not work, but believes on
Him who justifies the ungodly,
his faith is reckoned for righteousness.

Note that we are now speaking of justifying the ungodly, not speaking of justifying a man who has been a believer for years.

6 Even as David also pronounceth blessing upon the man, unto whom God reckoneth righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,

Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.


. . .
To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness.. . . that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them; . . .
13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: 15 for the law works wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression. 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all . . .

21
and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was reckoned unto him; 24 but for our sake also, unto whom it shall be reckoned, who believe on him that raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up for our trespasses, and was raised for our justification.

The above speaks of justification of the ungodly at the point of believing for salvation.

James speaks of the justification (declaration of righteousness) not for the ungodly, but for an old believer in the matter of Isaac's sacrifice.


21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar?
[This is long after Abe was saved & justified by faith alone, and it is not about salvation, but declaration of righteousness.]

22
Thou seest that faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect; 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of God. 24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

Long before Isaac was even born, Abe was justified by faith alone at the point of his first belief in YHWH. The Isaac sacrifice proved that in fact Abe was righteous.





 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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I think it takes a gracious God to give one grace in order to see His full glory.. and to deeply see the depths of sin in one's own heart. For if God does not give it no one would seek it.
Are you sure? Was Paul seeking the Lord on Damascus Road? Does anyone seek the Lord?

I figure you are speaking of this life; but I think you will agree with me that the day will come when every man will deeply see the depths of sin in his own heart -- at the Great White Throne judgment.

"What God requires of us he himself works in us, or it is not done. He that commands faith, holiness, and love, creates them by the power of his grace..." - Matthew Henry
I like that quote, Phil.
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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Re: ROMANS 3:23 ETC.

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
I have wondered what part of,'by works a man is justified' that people can't see nor understand?
It's as plain as day.
Part of the problem is that most refuse to let go of what they were taught. Of course there is much more to it than that.
How is it that everyone but the battered woman can see that the guy hitting her will continue and needs help. Why can't the wife/girlfriend see as clear as others? Why does she continue to go back to the same abuser?
Why do rape victims blame themselves for the crime against them instead of the guy that raped them?
Why can't they see?


 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
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Re: ROMANS 3:23 ETC.

Salvation starts with faith, and if you don't have faith, you can repent all you want and say Jesus is lord, but nothing will happen until you apply the faith of God.
Great statement.

Faith simply does NOT work without works. I have tried it many times in the past, and it failed every time.
Well Know1,
That is your claim, not the Word of God. I would testify that my impression of my own life is that I have tried good works many times without faith, & it failed every time like Peter's sinking in the sea, trying to walk on the sea. In fact some of the worst things I ever did was when I was trying to do right.

The life which I live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God Who loved me and gave His life for me. I do not make void the grace of God. The just shall live by faith.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
Re: ROMANS 3:23 ETC.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
I didn't just read it, I understood it and believed it AS IT IS WRITTEN.
Now how many years had Abe been saved, declared righteous, justified by faith alone (no works) Romans 4, before Isaac was even born? Romans 4 speaks of the justification by faith (alone) which the ungodly receives at the point where He believes.

James adds in the declaration of righteousness which a godly man (already long ago justified by faith) gets when he does a good work out of faith in the Christian life. This latter has nothing to do with salvation, but with recognition of righteousness.
 

nl

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2011
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Atwood, you are somewhat likely to remember the trilogy of Bob Dylan Christian (not Christmas) albums from the 1970's to early 1980's. There was a series of significant insights in the lyrics on those albums. I still play selections at times.

Mr. Bob Dylan appears to be someone who truly came to saving faith but then fell away.
 
Mar 28, 2014
4,300
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Re: ROMANS 3:23 ETC.

I have wondered what part of,'by works a man is justified' that people can't see nor understand?
It's as plain as day.
Part of the problem is that most refuse to let go of what they were taught. Of course there is much more to it than that.
How is it that everyone but the battered woman can see that the guy hitting her will continue and needs help. Why can't the wife/girlfriend see as clear as others? Why does she continue to go back to the same abuser?
Why do rape victims blame themselves for the crime against them instead of the guy that raped them?
Why can't they see?


that is called the spirit of deception......Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
3,100
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Re: ROMANS 3:23 ETC.

Great statement.



Well Know1,
That is your claim, not the Word of God. I would testify that my impression of my own life is that I have tried good works many times without faith, & it failed every time like Peter's sinking in the sea, trying to walk on the sea. In fact some of the worst things I ever did was when I was trying to do right.

The life which I live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God Who loved me and gave His life for me. I do not make void the grace of God. The just shall live by faith.
This claim I got strait from the word of God. It is good and sound, like the word of God.
Like I said, as it is written,'Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?'
How was it that the simple believed what Jesus said but the trained and educated could not?
How is this my claim when it is already written in the same bible you have and use?
I wasn't talking about 'good works', but works of faith. There is a big difference between the two.
Good works is based on good, moral, and ethical deeds, while works of faith is God doing the impossible for you because of your faith. Things that you are not capable of doing.
When you believe what He said, and act on it, He most surely will do what He promised.