Jesus turned water into unfermented wine and not fermented wine.

[Jason0047]

if all it takes is an alcoholic seeing someone else take a drink to fall off the wagon, then maybe he shouldnt be in public places where the consumption of alcohol is going to occur like restaurants or sporting events. if he is that weak he should not to put himself in such precarious situations.

But see, he was going to you for spiritual strength to resist in drinking. Besides, lets say you were at your church or somebody else's house where he did not know alcoholic beverages would be present. What then?

 

[Jason0047]

lol,,Yes "back then!",,see I was born in the cowboy days(almost,lol) and I can remember things like the first "weed eater"(scared me at first) but now days it don't occur to ask "how did we do that back then?" Just simple things like what all can be canned in a hot water bath,verses the things that have to be canned in a pressure cooker @5-15 p.s.i. and for how long ect.

In those days where would they keep a deer,sheep,cow ect. after they slaughtered it is the reasoning as to why they only butchered them at events(after the party they took the leftovers and divided them),,then what couldn't eat in a day or so was going to spoil(no refrigerator,pressure cookers ect.)

This is why Jesus said what he did about new wine and old skins(Matt.9;17,,mark 2;22) that is it would burst the old skins when it fermented. If they made just made "grape juice",and left it for two or three days they would get sick if they drank it(it would spoil in the heat/sun) so if they crossed a desert they had to have either fermented drinks or water that was clean,bacteria free ect. so fermented wine(germ free liquid) had a nutritional value(grapes) and would hydrate their bodies.

The whole purpose of the wine being put into new wine skins was because it was going thru the fermentation process. If unfermented wine (Which would ferment and turn into fermented wine) was put into old wine skins that had already been stretched by the process of fermentation, then the wine skins would burst. Jesus was making a parallel of how we are not to mix the Old Testament Law of Moses with the New Covenant or New Testament Law of Grace (Which has it's own set of Laws (That can be found in the NT) that a believer will naturally obey as a result of their salvation).

 

[Jason0047]

That person is responsible for his own actions

While it is true that a person is ultimately responsible for their own actions, a person who is leading another to stumble will not be found guitless before the Lord. They will have to account for their lack of love.

 

[Last]

But see, he was going to you for spiritual strength to resist in drinking. Besides, lets say you were at your church or somebody else's house where he did not know alcoholic beverages would be present. What then?

That won't cause a person to start drinking. The idea that Christians may not drink in public because it will cause people to drink is absurd and a double standard. That would mean I would not be able to do anything in public that a person had trouble doing in moderation, which is pretty much everything.

 

[Last]

While it is true that a person is ultimately responsible for their own actions, a person who is leading another to stumble will not be found guitless before the Lord. They will have to account for their lack of love.

If I do something in public that a person happens to see, that is not leading them to stumble. Inviting an obese person to KFC, or an alcoholic to a bar, or a gambling addict to a casino is.

The whole "Christians can't drink in public" is absurdity and hypocrisy.

 

[Linda70]

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
1 Thessalonians 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

 

[iamsoandso]

The whole purpose of the wine being put into new wine skins was because it was going thru the fermentation process. If unfermented wine (Which would ferment and turn into fermented wine) was put into old wine skins that had already been stretched by the process of fermentation, then the wine skins would burst. Jesus was making a parallel of how we are not to mix the Old Testament Law of Moses with the New Covenant or New Testament Law of Grace (Which has it's own set of Laws (That can be found in the NT) that a believer will naturally obey as a result of their salvation).

yes I do understand what the subject of the speech Jesus was explaining being the old and new covenants,he used the analogy of the skins and the wine fermentation to explain something they didn't understand with something they did i.e."fermentation",,

 

[chubbena]

That won't cause a person to start drinking. The idea that Christians may not drink in public because it will cause people to drink is absurd and a double standard. That would mean I would not be able to do anything in public that a person had trouble doing in moderation, which is pretty much everything.

No doubt it's a result of bad religion and traditions. It was not a problem in 1st century for most except the Pharisees and scribes. It certainly was not a problem back in the time of Moses when a portion of tithing was:
Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and olive oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the Lord your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the Lord your God always. But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the Lord your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the Lord will choose to put his Name is so far away), then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the Lord your God will choose. Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the Lord your God and rejoice.

 

[The_highwayman]

As with all things, a Christian must do things in moderation. Moderation is found by behaving in a way that is not harmful to your life, to others, and does not lead to an addiction. I can have a burger once in a while, it becomes a problem when I have one every day. I can have a candy bar but if I had 2-3 a day, that'd be a problem. Moderation is not about set numbers and rules, it is about being a mature, responsible adult that manages his life successfully.



And fried chicken places and fast food is a good place to spend your money? They don't hurt people? Again, personal responsibility.

Are you so shallow in your belief that a Christian can drink, that all you can provide is superfluous redirects. Have you no courage or certainty in your conviction that it is OK for a Christian to drink in moderation, that you cannot answer my questions directly?

Your definition of moderation is a justification, not an answer. Your continued attempt to justify this with other ignored behaviors found in the church is not unfounded, but further justification.

So how many drinks do you have in a day before you feel that you are no longer being a mature and responsible adult, that is managing his life successfully?

Do you only drink because it tastes good?

When do you think drinking becomes a sin? when you get tipsy, comfortably numb or bombed?

Is getting tipsy, comfortably numb or bombed once a week, once a month, once a year Ok? as long as it is not leading to issues

When is the Bible's stern warning against drunkenness held up by you?

Help me out here, but without the redirection and justifications.

 

[iamsoandso]

The whole purpose of the wine being put into new wine skins was because it was going thru the fermentation process. If unfermented wine (Which would ferment and turn into fermented wine) was put into old wine skins that had already been stretched by the process of fermentation, then the wine skins would burst. Jesus was making a parallel of how we are not to mix the Old Testament Law of Moses with the New Covenant or New Testament Law of Grace (Which has it's own set of Laws (That can be found in the NT) that a believer will naturally obey as a result of their salvation).

ooop's I hit post reply by accident(so I had to edit it and say this),,,,lol

 

[The_highwayman]

I dont count working a 12+ hour shift then coming home and having a beer as not moderation. A beer. Because sometimes after being in a hot workplace on your feet all day its relaxing to come home sit on the couch and sip. Now if I came home and drank a six pack every night? then sure you might have a point. But one beer, please, don't make me laugh.

Thanks for the answer at least you are not justifying or redirecting.

 

[The_highwayman]

If I do something in public that a person happens to see, that is not leading them to stumble. Inviting an obese person to KFC, or an alcoholic to a bar, or a gambling addict to a casino is.

The whole "Christians can't drink in public" is absurdity and hypocrisy.

Should Christians get drunk in public?

 

[john832]

Should Christians get drunk in public?

Should Christians indulge in gluttony in public?

If I drink one glass of wine with a meal, am I a drunkard?

 

[Jason0047]

That won't cause a person to start drinking. The idea that Christians may not drink in public because it will cause people to drink is absurd and a double standard. That would mean I would not be able to do anything in public that a person had trouble doing in moderation, which is pretty much everything.

You obviously do not realize that it doesn't take much for an alcholic to relapse. A Christian that they looked up to drinking openly at event where they did not expect any drinking to be present could very easily send a person back into a relapse. In fact, any Christian who has struggled with sin would tell you it doesn't take much to make them fall. But by God's grace and mercy He is there to pick them back up and to help them to walk uprightly in Him. For Jesus Christ was manifested to destroy the works of the devil. Works of the devil. Do you think alcholic drinking parties will be in Heaven or in the Eternal New Earth?

 

[iamsoandso]

lets solve the algebra problem,,,,,

The year is 47ad,,you are a farmer,you have a garden(vegetables),,and a field of grapes. vegetables you pick fresh and eat,beans you dry and store,,,but you have 5 acres of grapes(and their ready for harvest),,,,now this is all the grapes you will get until next year so you have to pick them and preserve them or they will go bad on the vine,,what do you do?

(A)pick them all and make a years worth of grape juice,,then drink it real fast until it spoils(about a week/week and a half tops)

(B)crush the grapes and make wine that will last until the next crop.

 

[Jason0047]

Should Christians indulge in gluttony in public?

If I drink one glass of wine with a meal, am I a drunkard?

No, you need to drink more than one glass to be drunk in order to be considered a drunkard. Just as a person needs to murder someone in order to be called a murderer. One glass may not make you a drunkard, but it sure can make a fellow brother to stumble, which is unloving and un-Christ like. For if we do not love the brethren or hate them, then we do not have eternal life abiding within us. The fruits of love must be in a Christian's life because God is love.

 

[Jason0047]

[TABLE="class: tborder, width: 100%, align: center"]
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[TD="class: alt1, bgcolor: #F6F6F6"]

lets solve the algebra problem,,,,,

The year is 47ad,,you are a farmer,you have a garden(vegetables),,and a field of grapes. vegetables you pick fresh and eat,beans you dry and store,,,but you have 5 acres of grapes(and their ready for harvest),,,,now this is all the grapes you will get until next year so you have to pick them and preserve them or they will go bad on the vine,,what do you do?

(A)pick them all and make a years worth of grape juice,,then drink it real fast until it spoils(about a week/week and a half tops)

(B)crush the grapes and make wine that will last until the next crop.

A. There Were Three Methods of Preservation For Grape Juice.

1. Boiling the juice to the consistency of syrup
   
   a. “By boiling, the juice of the richest grapes loses all its aptitude for fermentation, and may afterwards be preserved for years without undergoing any further change.” - Herman Boerhave, Elements of Chemistry, page 81
   
   b. Columella (1st century) said it was common in Italy and Greece to boil wine.
   
   c. Pliny (62-113 AD), wrote that after two centuries of production, Opimian wine had the consistency of honey.
   
   d. Virgil (70-19 BC) said to make wine keep, they boiled the juice down to ½ or 1/3 of its original volume.
   
   e. The reason the Jewish Mishna teaches the Jews to water down their wine was because they commonly kept it in syrup form.
   
   f. There are records giving instructions for reconstituting the syrup, depending on the kind of wine being used

   (1) Hesiod (8th century BC) said in the summer months, one part wine to three parts water was the correct amount.
   
   (2) Hippocrates(460-377 BC) said to use one part Thracian wine to twenty parts water.
   
   (3) Some regions built places where citizens could get hot, cold, or lukewarm water to mix with their wine, depending on the drink they desired. They were called “Thermopoliums” and several were found in Pompeii.
   
   
   ​
2. Filtration
   
   a. The gluten (or yeast) was separated from the juice. Without the gluten, fermentation could not take place.
   
   b. Plutarch (46-120 AD) “Wine is rendered feeble in strength when it is frequently filtered. The strength or spirit thus being excluded, the wine neither inflames the brain nor infests the mind and passions, and is much more pleasant to drink.”
   
   c. Pliny (62-133 AD) “The most useful wine was all its foce or strength broken by the filter.”
   
   
   ​
3. Refrigeration
   
   a. Juice kept at 45 degrees or less cannot ferment. If the juice is kept cool for a period of time, the gluten will settle to the bottom. Then the juice can be skimmed off the top and will not ferment even if it is warmed again.
   
   b. Pliny described a wine called Aigleuces (“Always Sweet”) “They plunge the casks, immediately after they are filled from the vat, into water, until winter has passed away and the wine has acquired the habit of being cold.”
   
   c. Marcus Pontius Cato (234-149 BC) “If you wish to have ‘must’ all year, put grape juice in an amphora and seal the cork with pitch. Sink it in a fishpond. After 30 days, take it out. It will be grape juice for a whole year.”
   
   d. The Jews poured a small amount of olive oil on the top of juice placed in caves. The oil produced an airtight seal and the cool caves allowed large quantities of juice to be stored and sold at later times of the year.
   
   
   ​

Conclusion:

In fact, records consistently indicate that the best wines were considered to be the freshest, unfermented juice, even among the Gentiles. So by looking at documentation from history, we can clearly see that grape juice was preserved and that the best wines were the unfermented wines.


Source Used:
http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVS...dTestament.htm
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[iamsoandso]

[TABLE="class: tborder, width: 100%, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD="class: alt1, bgcolor: #F6F6F6"]


A. There Were Three Methods of Preservation For Grape Juice.

1. Boiling the juice to the consistency of syrup
   
   a. “By boiling, the juice of the richest grapes loses all its aptitude for fermentation, and may afterwards be preserved for years without undergoing any further change.” - Herman Boerhave, Elements of Chemistry, page 81
   
   b. Columella (1st century) said it was common in Italy and Greece to boil wine.
   
   c. Pliny (62-113 AD), wrote that after two centuries of production, Opimian wine had the consistency of honey.
   
   d. Virgil (70-19 BC) said to make wine keep, they boiled the juice down to ½ or 1/3 of its original volume.
   
   e. The reason the Jewish Mishna teaches the Jews to water down their wine was because they commonly kept it in syrup form.
   
   f. There are records giving instructions for reconstituting the syrup, depending on the kind of wine being used

   (1) Hesiod (8th century BC) said in the summer months, one part wine to three parts water was the correct amount.
   
   (2) Hippocrates(460-377 BC) said to use one part Thracian wine to twenty parts water.
   
   (3) Some regions built places where citizens could get hot, cold, or lukewarm water to mix with their wine, depending on the drink they desired. They were called “Thermopoliums” and several were found in Pompeii.
   
   
   ​
2. Filtration
   
   a. The gluten (or yeast) was separated from the juice. Without the gluten, fermentation could not take place.
   
   b. Plutarch (46-120 AD) “Wine is rendered feeble in strength when it is frequently filtered. The strength or spirit thus being excluded, the wine neither inflames the brain nor infests the mind and passions, and is much more pleasant to drink.”
   
   c. Pliny (62-133 AD) “The most useful wine was all its foce or strength broken by the filter.”
   
   
   ​
3. Refrigeration
   
   a. Juice kept at 45 degrees or less cannot ferment. If the juice is kept cool for a period of time, the gluten will settle to the bottom. Then the juice can be skimmed off the top and will not ferment even if it is warmed again.
   
   b. Pliny described a wine called Aigleuces (“Always Sweet”) “They plunge the casks, immediately after they are filled from the vat, into water, until winter has passed away and the wine has acquired the habit of being cold.”
   
   c. Marcus Pontius Cato (234-149 BC) “If you wish to have ‘must’ all year, put grape juice in an amphora and seal the cork with pitch. Sink it in a fishpond. After 30 days, take it out. It will be grape juice for a whole year.”
   
   d. The Jews poured a small amount of olive oil on the top of juice placed in caves. The oil produced an airtight seal and the cool caves allowed large quantities of juice to be stored and sold at later times of the year.
   
   
   ​

Conclusion:

In fact, records consistently indicate that the best wines were considered to be the freshest, unfermented juice, even among the Gentiles. So by looking at documentation from history, we can clearly see that grape juice was preserved and that the best wines were the unfermented wines.


Source Used:
http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVS...dTestament.htm[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

well thats interesting how those who did not follow the bible preserved their grapes,but I thought we were looking at it from a biblical aspect from the old test./new testament perspective and if it is taught in the scriptures to boil the grapes to a syrup ect.(not meaning this disrespectful but how the Greeks preserved grapes to appease Zeus isn't my concern),,,the Jews/Christians on the other hand are so i do take note of things they stated(but are they from the bible)?,,,or are they from things written after the new testament era?,,,"Is there a scripture in the bible stating how(our God)wanted us to preserve the grapes by making syrup?",,,,

 

[JaumeJ]

There are already a lt of resonses to this thread, so if it is already old, please give me a reference to the post(s) on it.

Is the following quote incorrect about new wine, and why? Thanks, and God bless you.............


Act 2:13
Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

Act 2:14
But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:


Act 2:15
For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

 

[iamsoandso]

There are already a lt of resonses to this thread, so if it is already old, please give me a reference to the post(s) on it.

Is the following quote incorrect about new wine, and why? Thanks, and God bless you.............


Act 2:13
Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

Act 2:14
But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:


Act 2:15
For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

Yes after 350+ post it has pretty much pulled from most of the scriptures already,,,at the moment I was looking at the post Jason0047 posted (things concerning the Jews) and trying to research the "drink offerings" offered in the temple,,,what he said made me think "hmm,just how did this work,,was it a boiled type of first fruits,or fermented wine given at the Temple?",,,maybe he knows we are still discussing it,,,