Jesus turned water into unfermented wine and not fermented wine.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Jason0047

Jason0047

Banned
#41
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
#41
tourist said:
I am sorry but your argument makes no sense in light of clearly written scripture. I believe that you mean well and your points of view were considered before each response of mine. I have nothing further to add. Peace to you.
Click to expand...
I disagree. Your position does not make sense in light of Scripture. The Bible says strong drink is a mocker, wine is not for kings (And Jesus is a King), and that it can bite you like a serpent. The Bible also says that drunkards will not inherit the Kingdom of God. So how exactly do you believe it is good and acceptable for Jesus to promoted others to sin by getting them drunk again?
 
T

Tintin

Guest
#42
#42
This thread is moronic. Of course the wine was fermented grape juice! I suppose you also believe Jesus said, "read the KJV or nothing."
 
P

psychomom

Guest
#43
#43
Tintin said:
This thread is moronic. Of course the wine was fermented grape juice! I suppose you also believe Jesus said, "read the KJV or nothing."
Click to expand...
Tin, are you here to lighten my heart?
because your posts make me laugh. :)
 
Jason0047

Jason0047

Banned
#44
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
#44
kennethcadwell said:
Proverbs 23 is talking about doing things in the correct manner.

Notice it says at the last. This is meaning that if you do not drink it for the right purpose. You will get entrance with it and it will control you to the point that you get intoxicated by it.
Therefore seeing things, and speaking vial things.

We as Christians must learn to stop focusing just on the negatives of things, and start talking to people how stuff should correctly be used.

If I drink a glass of alcoholic wine a day, I am not sinning.

If I am drinking two bottles a day, or 6 to 12 bears a day and getting drunk then I am in sin.
Click to expand...
I will say it again. I am an Abstentionist. Abstentionists do not believe it is a sin to drink soberly and moderately in private. But the Abstentionist also believes it is important to warn against the dangers of alcohol according to the Bible and how it is accurately portrayed within the Scriptures. For many think Jesus was promoting an alcoholic drinking party so it is okay for them to party and get drunk, too. But this is not what happened at the wedding of Cana, though.
 
Jason0047

Jason0047

Banned
#45
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
#45
Tintin said:
This thread is moronic. Of course the wine was fermented grape juice! I suppose you also believe Jesus said, "read the KJV or nothing."
Click to expand...
This is just the mindless thinking that the word "wine" must automatically mean "alcoholic wine" because that is what we know that word to be today. Words change with the passage of time. Again, look up the word "wine" at Dictionary.com. Look to the third definition.
 
secularhermit

secularhermit

Banned
#46
May 3, 2013
8,719
75
0
#46
Sorry! It was fermented: oinos

If you want to change what the account said, it OK just with you.

Joh 2:10 and said to him, "Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now."
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
#47
#47
Jason0047 said:
No, as I said before, God does not tempt any man but he is drawn away and enticed by his own lusts and desires. But if a person is already being sinful, God contributing to that sin with a miracle that would lead them further into sin is just wrong. For if they were "well drunk" with alcoholic wine, then they were drunk or very close to it; Therefore, if Jesus gave them more alcoholic wine, he would have place them into a state of drunkenness or a deeper level of ignoring one in being sober (As the Scriptures state). In other words, Jesus' miracle was not a test for them to refuse in drinking any more alcohol. It was a miracle that glorified the coming of the New Testament with the shedding of His blood. It was water turned into unfermented wine.
Click to expand...

How is God to test you, if nothing is ever set before you to test your will ?

Look at Job, God allowed satan to do all kinds of things to Job accept kill him to test his will/love for God.

Turning the water into wine would not be Him contributing, it would be His way of testing those who are truly His.

Those who are not His are going to keep drinking and getting drunk rather He provided it, or some one else. So it would not be contributing as He already knew they would keep doing wrong.

As for those who are His they are being tested to see if they can endure and withstand from giving into their own temptations and desires.
 
Jason0047

Jason0047

Banned
#48
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
#48
As for the KJV-only position:

The Bible does not have to say KJV-only for a person to hold to the belief in the KJV as it being the preserved divinely inspired Word for our day. Other words within the Scriptures and personal study of the various observable evidences will lead a person to the proper conclusion. Just as the Scriptures do not say there is no OSAS or no Legalism in the Bible. Yet both of those false doctrines are refuted with Scripture. Neither is the word "Trinity" in the Bible. Yet Christians refer to this as a Biblical doctrine.
 
Last edited:
tourist

tourist

Senior Member
#49
Mar 13, 2014
42,550
17,022
113
69
Tennessee
#49
secularhermit said:
Sorry! It was fermented: oinos

If you want to change what the account said, it OK just with you.

Joh 2:10 and said to him, "Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now."
Click to expand...
Perhaps it was Dasani. If you can't have good wine then at least you can have good water. The guest there were obviously of good cheer. I heard there was a party going on :)
 
Jason0047

Jason0047

Banned
#50
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
#50
secularhermit said:
Sorry! It was fermented: oinos

If you want to change what the account said, it OK just with you.

Joh 2:10 and said to him, "Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now."
Click to expand...
You are going off the perspective from a drunkard's perspective. Not even wine tasters today think the best wine is the best because it is super strong in alcoholic content. They judge a wine based on it's taste. The Bible says drunkards will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
 
Jason0047

Jason0047

Banned
#51
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
#51
tourist said:
Perhaps it was Dasani. If you can't have good wine then at least you can have good water. The guest there were obviously of good cheer. I heard there was a party going on
Click to expand...
That is your own mind conjuring up something that is not there in the Scriptures. Nowhere does it ever say they were having a drinking party, or that they were intoxicated, or living it up drunk.

Read the Scriptures for yourself.

John 2 KJV
 
secularhermit

secularhermit

Banned
#52
May 3, 2013
8,719
75
0
#52
tourist said:
I am sorry but your argument makes no sense in light of clearly written scripture. I believe that you mean well and your points of view were considered before each response of mine. I have nothing further to add. Peace to you.
Click to expand...
I have heard that, that wine was added water, to make it soft... How many cups do i need to be drunk?

So, the Pharisees had lied too, because they used to say these to the Lord:

Mat 11:19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds."

Luk 7:34 The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, 'Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'

Mat 11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.'
Mat 11:19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds."

Luk 7:33 For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, 'He has a demon.'
Luk 7:34 The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, 'Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'

If He wasn´t a person like that, there wasn´t a need to compare to John´s life.
 
Jason0047

Jason0047

Banned
#53
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
#53
kennethcadwell said:
How is God to test you, if nothing is ever set before you to test your will ?

Look at Job, God allowed satan to do all kinds of things to Job accept kill him to test his will/love for God.

Turning the water into wine would not be Him contributing, it would be His way of testing those who are truly His.

Those who are not His are going to keep drinking and getting drunk rather He provided it, or some one else. So it would not be contributing as He already knew they would keep doing wrong.

As for those who are His they are being tested to see if they can endure and withstand from giving into their own temptations and desires.
Click to expand...
No, there is no indication within the text that Jesus' miracle was a test. In fact, on the contrary, Jesus miracle is praised by the governor and tells the bridegroom that they saved the best wine until last.
 
Agricola

Agricola

Senior Member
#54
Dec 10, 2012
2,638
88
48
#54
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD]trong's Number: 3631[/TD]
[TD="width: 120, align: center"] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]Original Word[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]Word Origin[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]oi\noß[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]a primary word (or perhaps of Hebrew origin (03196))[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]Transliterated Word[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]TDNT Entry[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]Oinos[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]5:162,680[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]Phonetic Spelling[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]Parts of Speech[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]oy'-nos [/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]Noun Masculine [/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"] Definition[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]
  1. wine
  2. metaph. fiery wine of God's wrath
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"] King James Word Usage - Total: 33[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]wine 32, winepress + (3125)&version=kjv 1[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
tourist

tourist

Senior Member
#55
Mar 13, 2014
42,550
17,022
113
69
Tennessee
#55
secularhermit said:
I have heard that, that wine was added water, to make it soft... How many cups do i need to be drunk?

So, the Pharisees had lied too, because they used to say these to the Lord:

Mat 11:19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds."

Luk 7:34 The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, 'Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'

Mat 11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.'
Mat 11:19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds."

Luk 7:33 For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, 'He has a demon.'
Luk 7:34 The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, 'Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'

If He wasn´t a person like that, there wasn´t a need to compare to John´s life.
Click to expand...
Well done my friend. Those were excellent verses that are pertinent to this discussion.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
#56
#56
tourist said:
Perhaps it was Dasani. If you can't have good wine then at least you can have good water. The guest there were obviously of good cheer. I heard there was a party going on :)
Click to expand...

Lol, but then you come up with the other side of the debate about the wine being alcoholic.

I have seen many preachers say they had to drink the alcoholic wine because the water is bad over there.

Funny, how many times in the bible does it talk about wells, or springs that they drank from.
 
J

jkalyna

Guest
#57
#57
secularhermit said:
Sorry! It was fermented: oinos

If you want to change what the account said, it OK just with you.

Joh 2:10 and said to him, "Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now."
Click to expand...
*I do think that the*Pharisees*lied to, I think it was real wine, and the best in the house, maybe not enough to go around, we don't know how many people were there, maybe they just got a little bit, like a tablespoon.*
 
Jason0047

Jason0047

Banned
#58
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
#58
secularhermit said:
I have heard that, that wine was added water, to make it soft... How many cups do i need to be drunk?

So, the Pharisees had lied too, because they used to say these to the Lord:

Mat 11:19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds."

Luk 7:34 The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, 'Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'

Mat 11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.'
Mat 11:19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds."

Luk 7:33 For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, 'He has a demon.'
Luk 7:34 The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, 'Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'

If He wasn´t a person like that, there wasn´t a need to compare to John´s life.
Click to expand...
I already addressed this point here within this thread.
Besides, the Pharisees had lied and said that Jesus was born of fornication. Does that mean their lie was true? No, of course not.
 
secularhermit

secularhermit

Banned
#59
May 3, 2013
8,719
75
0
#59
tourist said:
Well done my friend. Those were excellent verses that are pertinent to this discussion.
Click to expand...
There was a time i was so "religious" like those pharisees... Although i don´t like Paul´s, he said:

1Ti 4:4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,
1Ti 4:5 for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.
 
Agricola

Agricola

Senior Member
#60
Dec 10, 2012
2,638
88
48
#60
I assume that the wine in Jesus time was identical to what was going around the Roman Empire. Wine in those days was made to high alcoholic content, same as the wines we buy today. HOWEVER, no one really drunk it like that, it was always diluted with water before being drunk.

If people want to use the fact that Jesus turned water into wine as an excuse to get drunk, then they are idiots. I see nothing wrong in consuming some alcahol in amounts which will not make you drunk, but remember your body is a temple!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.