Jesus Christ is not your Lord

lav · Aug 3, 2014

i don't even know what this post is about, but every time i see the title i just think it's so offensive and obnoxious.

djness · Aug 3, 2014

lav said:

It is part of the culture of attention grabbing headlines.

newbirth · Aug 3, 2014

VCO said:

Paul is describing an unsaved person under the law.....
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Are you under the law?...
Are you still a sinner?...
Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

newbirth · Aug 3, 2014

mpaper345 said:

You have that right and all those who who don't allow him to have that authority in their life He is not their Lord. And when they say lord lord he will say depart from me....

VCO · Aug 4, 2014

newbirth said:

I was about to give up on explaining things to you, but this post of yours, gives me hope that you are close to understanding what I have been saying. I numbered your points to make it easier to answer.

Your first sentence opened my eyes to where your confusion lies. And in answering that one, many of the others will be answered also. The stumbling block to understanding, is that you have gotten the cart ahead of the horse. You said, "Follow peace with all men, and holiness" or we will not see the LORD, but I think you meant "see the kingdom of God". I say that because every eye will see HIM coming when He comes to take back the Earth from the unbelievers, and to set up HIS thousand year Kingdom.

Revelation 1:7 (NKJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

Revelation 19:20-21 (NKJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Where are genuine believers at that time? Actually, I believe we are riding behind Him as part of the armies of heaven, because we were called out of earth to go to heaven seven years earlier for the Wedding of the Lamb in the New City Jerusalem in Heaven. Who repopulates the earth during the Kingdom after He killed the rest? The 144,000 Jews sealed from harm in their mortal bodies. That is a whole different discussion, that I tried to get started a couple months ago, but no one was interested in that discussion. http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ng-out-bride-go-wedding-lamb.html#post1604022

Back to your point number 1. The reason I say you got the cart ahead of the horse, is that is not the requirement Jesus said we had to meet to be with Him in the Kingdom of God:

John 3:3 (NKJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

I know I have tried to explain born again a number of time, but perhaps I did not keep it simple enough to avoid confusion. The Key to understanding born again is that it is something that happens to our human spirits, not our bodies. Our human spirits were not alive to the will of GOD at natural birth, because of the sin nature that we inherited from Adam.

Colossians 2:13 (NIV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

Which part of us was once dead at natural birth? The human spirit:

John 3:6 (NKJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

And here is proof that born again only happens to the human spirit:

Romans 8:10 (NIV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.

So exactly what does the Holy Spirit do to our human spirit as HE enters our heart to take up residence?

Romans 5:5 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

John 3:36 (NIV)
[SUP]36 [/SUP] Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

Once again, look at Rom. 8:10 above. Notice it says, your body is dead because of sin, so we know the eternal life is not referring to the human body; but rather the human spirit. So as the Holy Spirit enters the heart of a human being, that person's human spirit becomes eternally alive, and in tune with the will of GOD, because at the same time HE the Holy Spirit poured into our hearts the Love of GOD. And you know as well as I do, that Love of GOD manifests itself in the form of willing submission to His Lordship and willing obedience.

You may not know this, but the human spirit prior to "born again" is focused only on the desires of the flesh, so it impossible to at that point to distinguish between the human mind and the human spirit. However after we are born again, when we are a babe spiritually in Christ, the Human mind still focuses a lot on the will of the flesh, while human spirit thinks too, and focuses on doing the will of GOD. At that point it becomes very obvious that we have two different thinking processes going on within us. In fact they war against each other quite a bit at times. In fact here we see Paul in that inner struggle, before He had the spiritual maturity to have His human spirit dominate the will of the flesh (sinful nature).

Romans 7:14-25 (HCSB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am made out of flesh, sold into sin’s power.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For I do not understand what I am doing, because I do not practice what I want to do, but I do what I hate.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So now I am no longer the one doing it, but it is sin living in me.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For I do not do the good that I want to do, but I practice the evil that I do not want to do.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Now if I do what I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but it is the sin that lives in me.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] So I discover this principle: When I want to do what is good, evil is with me.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For in my inner self I joyfully agree with God’s law.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] But I see a different law in the parts of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and taking me prisoner to the law of sin in the parts of my body.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this dying body?
[SUP]25 [/SUP] I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I myself am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh, to the law of sin.

As we feed on the word of GOD, and put it to practice, our human spirit gets stronger and stronger, and eventually it will dominate the will of the flesh, most of the time. But that sin nature remains in the flesh, thus the body will die because of our sin nature. BUT when we are raised in our glorified body or changed in the twinkling of an eye, that body will have NO SINFUL NATURE IN IT.

In your point 2., you seem to have a slight misunderstanding of what it means to be set free from sin. It does not mean to remove sin from the body, but rather to be set free from sin's dominion over you. Again that comes from being born again and having an eternally living spirit with the Love of GOD in it. THUS with the addition of the Power of the Holy Spirit, we can then really say NO to temptation for the first time. So once again it is a spiritual holiness that is empowered by to Holy Spirit HIMSELF, striving to become dominate over the will of the flesh, but the flesh still dies, but NOT THE NEXT BODY.

In your point 3.,you are right that we strive to cleanse the body, just like the spirit was cleansed when we were born again. But that struggle to cleanse our bodies is a DAILY lifelong struggle from the time we were born again until the day we die.

Luke 9:23 (HCSB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Then He said to ⌊them⌋ all, “If anyone wants to come with Me, he must deny himself, take up his cross daily, and follow Me.

In your point 4., that "new man" is a reference to the new "born again" human spirit empowered by the Holy Spirit.

In your point 5., that is saying that if we are truly children of GOD, then our behavior should reflect Who our Heavenly Father is. In other words, if you are truly saved by GOD, then let your actions show it. Another verse that says the exact same thing is Php. 2:12.

True story: back in the late 80's I was in a Golf Tournament, and one of the guys in our foursome, was one of those that would cuss a blue streak and throws his clubs every time he hit a bad shot. I hit lots of bad shots too, but took them in stride, never got angry, and never cussed. Even though I never told him anything about myself, when we got back to the Club House, he actually came over to my table, and apologized for his cussing and attitude, stating he could tell I was a Christian by the way I played the game. Sometimes we are the only Bible some people will ever read.

In your point 6., I agree wholeheartedly. The only thing I could add to that, is our human spirit was born holy when the Holy Spirit brought it to eternal life, but the Sanctification of the Body, is a lifelong step by step process of becoming more and more like HIM.

VCO · Aug 4, 2014

lav said:

Basically newbirth started this thread pointing out the fact that Jesus is not your LORD if you are not submitting to Him in obedience. I think he made a very good point, in this lukewarm Loadicean Age.

mailmandan · Aug 4, 2014

newbirth said:

I didn't say "I", I said WE (all of us) are not righteous IN OF OURSELVES. Romans 3:10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. 12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one."

If ANYONE builds (vs. 12) not simply specific teachers and pastors.

But what does James mean by faith without works is dead? You assume that works are the source of life in faith. Not so. If you claim to have faith but have no works, then you have an empty profession of faith, not genuine living, saving faith. Again, James does not teach that we are saved by works. His concern is to SHOW the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Faith without works is dead and it's not because works are the source of life in faith, but because works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of living faith.

Works without faith are simply bad fruit. Every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. (Matthew 7:17-18; 12:33). Add to our faith is not salvation by works.

My explanation doesn't change what the scripture says, it explains what the scripture means and it does not mean that works are the source of life for our faith just as fruit is not the source of life for a tree. Again, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. Even though our bodies have a spirit and are temporarily alive, we are spiritually dead without the Holy Spirit.

All born again believers have faith that trusts in Christ for salvation. This doesn't mean that their faith can't grow stronger as they mature in Christ.

Claims to have faith but has no works is not genuine faith but an empty profession of faith (James 2:14).

Amen!

newbirth · Aug 4, 2014

VCO said:

I am understanding the scripture and I am not confused....and I don't change the word...
Hebrews 12:14
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord

Have you considered how he is seen if it is as judge or in his glory)

God did not say he was reviving a dead spirit, he spoke of a new spirit...
Ezekiel 36:26
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.[SUP]22 [/SUP]Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

you are on your own with this one

with this one too

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Normally I call this babbling...It does not mean to remove sin from the body, but rather to be set free from sin's dominion over you. Imagine you take a pig out from the mud you don't clean him up but you tell him ,don't go back in the mud else you will get dirty....

newbirth · Aug 4, 2014

mailmandan said:

Not " we" You just want company in unrighteousness...
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

If you want to change the context go ahead...It will just be false doctrine..

you cannot change the word to mean what you want...What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? when you answer these two questions. Everything will become clear.

Who is talking about salvation by works....works without faith cannot be part of the equation ...it is not of God.
If you don't add to your faith you will fall...

What do you do with a dead body? do the same with dead faith

If that faith has no works it is dead...dead things don't grow...

the scripture does not say that...Claims to have faith but has no works. Can faith save you?

Amen!

What is an empty profession of faith ?...just something you made up to support your doctrine of man. It is either you have faith or you don't , if you have faith and no works that faith is dead...remedy start doing some works

VCO · Aug 4, 2014

newbirth said:

I have desperately tried to get you to admit that the sin nature that remains in the body, produces sin that needs to be confessed to GOD every time you discover it, not ignored, and not pretended to not exist.

Born Again is not babbling as I patiently described it. It is the only way you will ever see the Kingdom of GOD in heaven.

It is the only way you will ever have a spiritual understanding of spiritual truths such as born again and the doctrine of the Holy Trinity.

Philippians 2:11 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
{The Father is GOD }

Isaiah 9:6 (HCSB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For a child will be born for us, a son will be given to us, and the government will be on His shoulders. He will be named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
{The Son is GOD }

Acts 5:3-4 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Then Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the proceeds from the field?
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Wasn’t it yours while you possessed it? And after it was sold, wasn’t it at your disposal? Why is it that you planned this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God!”
{The Holy Spirit is GOD }

Deuteronomy 6:4 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] “Listen, Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One.

Genesis 1:26-27 (HCSB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness. They will rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the livestock, all the earth, and the creatures that crawl on the earth.” {The Triune GOD, the only GOD that exists. }
[SUP]27 [/SUP] So God created man in His own image; He created him in the image of God; He created them male and female.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (HCSB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely. And may your spirit, soul, and body be kept sound and blameless for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. {We too are a triune being three parts that make up one human being. }

mailmandan · Aug 4, 2014

newbirth said:

An empty profession of faith is claiming to have faith but having no works (James 2:14). I didn't make it up and it is what it is. Faith is dead because it has not been made alive in Christ by grace through faith, not by works (Ephesians 2:5-9); we are created in Christ Jesus UNTO/FOR good works (Ephesians 2:10). Faith in Christ is the root and works are the fruit of salvation.

So your solution to make a dead faith come to life is do works? What is your solution to make a dead tree come to life? Tell the dead tree to produce fruit?

I've already explained more than enough to show you the truth. If the truth is what you are looking for, then you will find it in what I have already shared with you. If accommodating your biased theology is the only thing that you are interested in, then you won't find the truth no matter how many times that I explain it to you.

VCO · Aug 5, 2014

mailmandan said:

And God's solution is:

John 15:5-6 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Kerry · Aug 5, 2014

NASB = never ask a sinning believer.

newbirth · Aug 5, 2014

mailmandan said:

You are rewriting scripture...God does not give us dead faith...

faith is dead because it is without works just like the body is dead without the spirit...any way you turn whatever you say ..faith without works is dead....

the branch that does not bear fruit is hewn down and cast in the fire...works are the fruit no fruit = fire...

Yes the faith is there, unless the heart is turned from God, your actions will revive it...with God all things are possible...

homwardbound · Aug 5, 2014

Kerry said:

I have to ask Kerry, are you a believer that has no chance to ever sin again? Are we not of unredeemed flesh that gas the capacity to not walk in Spirit and truth?
Are we to learn to walk in Spirit and truth only, and can only do this daily, via dying to self daily at the death of Christ in order to see the new life in the resurrected Christ?
Just asking Brother

homwardbound · Aug 5, 2014

newbirth said:

Newbirth what are your works manifested of? Whose works do you do? And ask self is self in the way, putting works of self before the Lord, as it is written all over the First Testament, man has to earn his way, and never could be perfect, playing God being born in like image of the one and only true God, knowing good and evil, and by his own flesh and blood could not ever be complete. So Christ came in due time to complete what man can't. Born of the virgin Mary, a life-giving Spirit for all. Went to the cross to make us perfect before Father to get new life in Father by the resurrected Christ alone.
so yes works are important, as the result of one's Faith. Yet works do not and can not produce Faith

Faith in god thropugh Son the Christ produces works of God period, by the Holy spirit of truth in the lead.
Okay now you get to see what I see and you get to choose, whether you beleive God complete or not?
Love you deep as in Eph 3:16-18

newbirth · Aug 5, 2014

homwardbound said:

Are you questioning me or are you questioning the word? That is what the word says. Faith without works is dead...not.."so yes works are important, as the result of one's Faith"....works are because of your faith...Do you believe?
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

newbirth · Aug 5, 2014

VCO said:

How can I admit I am a slave to sin, when Christ saved me from sin. The scripture says don't sin....If you have a sin nature you are not born again
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But ye have not so learned Christ;
[SUP]21 [/SUP]If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
[SUP]22 [/SUP]That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Neither give place to the devil.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
[SUP]32 [/SUP]And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

VCO · Aug 5, 2014

newbirth said:

Amazing, you still do not get it.

Born Again, transforms the human spirit only.

John 3:5-7 (ESV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

Sanctification is what transforms the human body.

Romans 6:17-19 (ASV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] But thanks be to God, that, whereas ye were servants of sin, ye became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching whereunto ye were delivered;
[SUP]18 [/SUP] and being made free from sin {spiritually}, ye became servants of righteousness.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye presented your members as servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity, even so now present your members as servants to righteousness unto sanctification.

Philippians 3:12-17 (HCSB) {Written in 62 A.D., while Paul began his ministry approximately 36 A.D.}
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Not that I have already reached ⌊the goal⌋ or am already fully mature, but I make every effort to take hold of it because I also have been taken hold of by Christ Jesus.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Brothers, I do not consider myself to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and reaching forward to what is ahead,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] I pursue as my goal the prize promised by God’s heavenly call in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Therefore, all who are mature should think this way. And if you think differently about anything, God will reveal this also to you.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] In any case, we should live up to whatever ⌊truth⌋ we have attained. {I am trying to give you more truth, don't those thorn bushes you keep kicking resisting the Truth, hurt since you are barefooted on Holy Ground?}
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Join in imitating me, brothers, and observe those who live according to the example you have in us.

Philippians 3:21 (HCSB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] He will transform the body of our humble condition into the likeness of His glorious body, by the power that enables Him to subject everything to Himself. {NOT until then will we be totally rid of the sin nature.}

The sin nature is still in the human body.

Luke 9:23 (HCSB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Then He said to ⌊them⌋ all, “If anyone wants to come with Me, he must deny himself, take up his cross daily, and follow Me.

2 Corinthians 3:18 (ESV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. {Sanctification, which is getting the leaven out.} For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit. {A Trinity verse that I never picked up on before.}

VCO · Aug 5, 2014

VCO said:

newbirth,

It just dawned on me, perhaps our main hurdle to understanding one another is a terminology definition difference.

Here is what I understand the term sin nature to mean:

The inherited potential tendency to sin as part of our human nature.

Satan can and will exploit that tendency to sin if we give him a foothold.
If we don't stay in prayer and His Word, that tendency to sin will cause us to stumble into sin, without Satan's temptations.

Does that help you understand what I have been try to get you to understand?

Jesus Christ is not your Lord

lav

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