Is there such a thing as an atheist?

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Dec 25, 2009
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I've never seen a dog look guilty for stealing another dog's treats though.
I have. The dog even tired to make up for it later.

What makes you think all people have the same conscience? A lot of people feel guilt and remorse over a lot of different things and they don't always seem to follow what the biblical god seems to decree as morally right. I just don't see how your idea works.
 
Aug 25, 2013
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Magnetic forces are much more powerful than gravitational forces. Thus, magnetism and not gravity is the natural force responsible for many of the coalesced structures that we see in the universe such as spiral galaxies. Around 77% of the observed galaxies in the universe are spiral galaxies.
NL, where did you get this information on magnetism? My understanding is that magnetism is considerably less influential over distance than gravity. According to a Scientific American blog, the ΛCDM model of the universe is the current best model available. It explains galaxy formation without recourse to magnetism, but instead takes into account "both dark matter and dark energy". See the Scientific American blog by Kelly Oakes, 8 Sep 2011, “For a realistic Milky Way simulation, just add clustered star formation.” For a realistic Milky Way simulation, just add clustered star formation | Basic Space, Scientific American Blog Network

Another SA article (Jan 2002) argues that magnetic fields may have played an important role in the early universe. "We think magnetism, in some locations of the universe, could have been as important as gravity in shaping the overall structure." It may also "impact stellar evolution" even today. Cosmic Bubbles Containing Magnetic Fields May Shape Galaxy Clusters - Scientific American But I couldn't find anything connecting magnetic fields and spiral structure.
 
Aug 25, 2013
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What makes you think all people have the same conscience? A lot of people feel guilt and remorse over a lot of different things and they don't always seem to follow what the biblical god seems to decree as morally right. I just don't see how your idea works.
The following quote seems to support your own observation that not all individuals have the same level of conscience: "The study of the psychopath reveals an individual who is incapable of feeling guilt, remorse or empathy for their actions. They are generally cunning, manipulative and know the difference between right and wrong but dismiss it as applying to them." I don't know how this fits in with your discussion, but I thought I'd offer it up for consideration. :)

Psychopaths - Characteristics of the Psychopathic Personality
 
K

Kerry

Guest
Cycel, Hi hope you are well. But I must say how long will you kick the tires, How long will test the motor? Man I love you and Jesus loves you more than I ever could. But, keep testing. I pray that you will see the light. Millions if not billions have, but there is always room at te Cross for one more. May God bless you.
 

HQ

Senior Member
Jan 26, 2014
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What makes you think all people have the same conscience? A lot of people feel guilt and remorse over a lot of different things and they don't always seem to follow what the biblical god seems to decree as morally right. I just don't see how your idea works.
Because I have a biblical world view. So for me, if sin is defined as transgression of the law (the ten commandments) then I obviously believe that our conscience reflects those laws. And since I believe God created Christians, Jews, atheists and everyone else with the same conscience then those laws apply to all of us. Even the people that don't believe in Him.

Although I don't ordinarily make a practice of throwing out scripture to atheists, I'll throw this one out to provide some biblical support for my position:

"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Romans 1:20
 

JesusLives

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2013
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I wish you guys could hear me talk to God sometimes. I say things like - Why do have to be invisible? I wish You were here right now to tell me what to do. Sometimes decisions are so hard to make and I just wish they would be made for me. I was paying a bill one night and doing many things at once and I went to grab the bill I had just paid to get ready to mail it and I could not find it anywhere. I was in the same room, just moments before I had it in my hand. I started talking to God and I said "You know where this bill is and I just had it! I wish You would just tell me where it is!!!! I was so frustrated and thought I was loosing my mind and a little voice in my thoughts said lift up the tablecloth. I did and sure enough there was the bill I had just paid. In my doing many things at once I had put a new tablecloth on the table covering the bill that I thought I had removed. I don't know what you guys think about this situation I had. But to me I said Thank You God it was like You were in the room telling me where the bill was.

I do so wish and pray you could believe in Him, I know He is with each one of you, you just don't realize it. I pray God will do something that only each of you would know that it could only have happened because there is a God. I know He loves each one of you very much. Blessing to all.
 
Dec 25, 2009
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Because I have a biblical world view. So for me, if sin is defined as transgression of the law (the ten commandments) then I obviously believe that our conscience reflects those laws. And since I believe God created Christians, Jews, atheists and everyone else with the same conscience then those laws apply to all of us. Even the people that don't believe in Him.
Well, my conscience mostly doesn't follow the ten commandments. Do you have a reason for believing that people all have a conscience based on the ten commandments outside of your conjecture that the bible is true?
 

JesusLives

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2013
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I have. The dog even tired to make up for it later.

What makes you think all people have the same conscience? A lot of people feel guilt and remorse over a lot of different things and they don't always seem to follow what the biblical god seems to decree as morally right. I just don't see how your idea works.
Aren't animals wonderful - I wish I could have seen the dog making amends.
 

nl

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2011
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NL, where did you get this information on magnetism?


My thinking about plasma and electro-magnetism started with personal conversation with a self-published author who also had previous books published by more conventional means.

But, here's another source: 99.999% plasma - (The Plasma Universe Wikipedia-like Encyclopedia)

"The visible universe is 99.999% plasma.


So quite simply, if you don't know how cosmic plasmas behave, you don't know the Universe. And astrophysical plasmas may behave differently to terrestrial plasmas.


It is worth noting that all cosmic plasma carries a magnetic field and electric currents. "
 

HQ

Senior Member
Jan 26, 2014
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Well, my conscience mostly doesn't follow the ten commandments. Do you have a reason for believing that people all have a conscience based on the ten commandments outside of your conjecture that the bible is true?
Do you have any evidence that you even have the conscience you just referred to? You certainly must feel it because otherwise you wouldn't believe it existed. So what is the source of YOUR conscience? Why do certain things you do or say nag you? Why would a random evolutionary process care about guilt when it's predicated on the idea that only the strong should survive? Why would your brain send your consciousness a signal to feel bad when it doesn't really give a rip whether you live or die? In fact, does the brain even know what death is? It's just a biological neural network after all.

It seems we are both conjecturing here. But in my scenario there's at least an external source involved that actually cares, unlike the brain. For that reason I believe it's the most logical explanation.
 
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HQ

Senior Member
Jan 26, 2014
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Do you have any evidence that you even have the conscience you just referred to? You certainly must feel it because otherwise you wouldn't believe it existed. So what is the source of YOUR conscience? Why do certain things you do or say nag you? Why would a random evolutionary process care about guilt when it's predicated on the idea that only the strong should survive? Why would your brain send your consciousness a signal to feel bad when it doesn't really give a rip whether you live or die? In fact, does the brain even know what death is? It's just a biological neural network after all.

It seems we are both conjecturing here. But in my scenario there's at least an external source involved that actually cares, unlike the brain. For that reason I believe it's the most logical explanation.

Sorry for tossing out so many questions there. Got a little carried away LOL.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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Hi Guys.

Just to get us back on topic. There still seems to be a preconception that atheists still believe in one deity or another and are corrupt and without morals. This all seems to be from the inflexible constant that there must be a god and their must be a devil, and these constructs are held to be true as they were written in a book that was originally written by ancient jewish scribes, badly translated, edit and compiled by a Roman Republican Forum, then retranslated in a flexible manner at the command of an english king.

Moral Psychology Research Lab

On the subject of Morals, the moral absolute does not exist in any human being upon birth. It is learnt from the culture and environment within which it develops. Every moral decision results from a process of 'if this was done to me how would it feel?' and/or 'what are the possible positive and negative tribal outcomes from me performing a certain action'. You burn your finger on a hot oven hob. It causes you a pain which last for a long time. Do you now have the urge to put someone else's hand, who may be important to you, on the hob? Well mostly no because you are empathetic to the pain they will endure. But some people do who may well be religious, they just don't have the brain wired in such a way to create a socially acceptable decision of the pain they will inflict. You may argue a christian would never do that due to the 10 commandments, however, there have been plenty of cases where people are defined by their local communities as being 'Good Christians', Ted Bundy for one example, until they are caught, prosecuted and identified as being either a psychopath or a narcissist. Then all of a sudden they are servants of the devil despite their previous social or religious status. Surely this is tangible proof that someone's actions and their believes are not always related. Take for example the Catholic priests sexually abusing young boys yet their faith is not in dispute.

The stonewalled refusal of some users to accept that people do not share their beliefs does demonstrate the cause of intolerance between the religious and non-religious communities. Yet were we to say that you are all lying to yourselves for believing a big bearded father figure creator of all fairytale character, people would claim us as being bigoted. As I do not believe in any divine or insidious beings yet am a morally secure person, I could argue that I don't believe there are true theists because they believe in something infinitely improbable as to be impossible.

“Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as the final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.
The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist,'" says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.”



Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
No matter deep thought man's wisdom is foolishness to God. And personally, I just trust God at God's word, in God's Mercy to all. For he loved us so much that God through Son went to death for us, to redeem us to love all by the resurrected Christ.
At least this is the unfathomable love that I see from God and not man, including myself, I need this loving God, freely chosen by me to have and now have after working so hard to enter the rest that is not only provided for me, but all that believe God at God's word, being discerned by God, in the ppower of the Holy Spirit that does the discerning of truth and error.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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Originally Posted by HQ

No, I think everyone has a conscience but many choose to ignore it for a variety of reasons.



Why do we choose to ignore our conscience? Because we all want what we want, as Woody Allen would say.

As I already explained, a conscience is a moral guide from God; an idiot light that warns of potential moral hazards. If you're looking for me to anatomically or biologically describe where the conscience resides and how it functions I'm afraid you're going to be terribly disappointed with my answer.

What is you definition of a conscience? Do you even believe it exists? If so, do you believe all life forms have one or just humans?
Hebrews 9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Hebrews 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

No more conscience of sin? how why? because we are through Son cleansed, pure, made Holy to Father? So busy with thanksgiving and praise, having that conscience, no conscience of sin, so we then are doing what?



Galatians 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Is soweth, think on, conscious of? So as a man thinks so he does and is this correct? Just think long enough of not doing what is sin to you, and what do you do as you struggle with not doing what you do not want to do? what do you do?
Maybe re-read Romans 7 asking God to reveal to me, you and whoever what God is saying to you through Paul about the fight of God's Spirit and your own flesh?
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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I don't know if I believe in the same type of conscience as you do. From my understanding many different animals would have something like a conscience.
I think that is instinct, they do not think about the situation at hand, they know and react accordingly, just like in the last terrible major tidal wave that killed lots of people, that were too busy here on this earth, not paying attention to the coming disaster, while animals were heading, escaping from cages to higher ground. Elephants pulling out the stakes in the ground they were tied to, going for higher ground for safety, escaping the coming disaster that came in 2011.
Not one animal was reported dead in that disaster, they all escaped to higher ground safely by instinct.
Think we should be listening to the hidden man of our hearts, rather that the short time pleasures of this world?
 

JesusLives

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2013
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I have a question for the Atheists - If there is no God Where did the 10 commandments come from? If you think the bible is just a made up book - Then why would a man write the first 4 commandments that mainly deal with what is expected to be rules for God? If 10 commandments were written by man - Why not just the last 6? Your thoughts. Thanks
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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You've missed the point. The heart wants what the heart wants. The conscience is the govenor of our heart.
And many times is what keeps one in sin
Galatians 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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NL, where did you get this information on magnetism? My understanding is that magnetism is considerably less influential over distance than gravity. According to a Scientific American blog, the ΛCDM model of the universe is the current best model available. It explains galaxy formation without recourse to magnetism, but instead takes into account "both dark matter and dark energy". See the Scientific American blog by Kelly Oakes, 8 Sep 2011, “For a realistic Milky Way simulation, just add clustered star formation.” For a realistic Milky Way simulation, just add clustered star formation | Basic Space, Scientific American Blog Network

Another SA article (Jan 2002) argues that magnetic fields may have played an important role in the early universe. "We think magnetism, in some locations of the universe, could have been as important as gravity in shaping the overall structure." It may also "impact stellar evolution" even today. Cosmic Bubbles Containing Magnetic Fields May Shape Galaxy Clusters - Scientific American But I couldn't find anything connecting magnetic fields and spiral structure.
Well your belief is in this science not God as man explains this to you, and I believe God over man. The creator of all. and man has discovered a lot of truth, yet, but mixed with errors and is learning and growing, but no mater what something or someone created all that man is discovering and discovering more and more and then later changing his mind about what was discovered in discovering more later, an ongoing merry-go-round, trying to attain the whole truth in stress over it,
Where I personally am at rest after stressing for many years over these things, not saying you are stressed, just remembering when I was, being so busy at trying to be perfect as God is, finally seeing through Soin at the cross he made me perfect, and not that I from my view am, for I am not, but from God the Father's view I am this through Son
Now that is something for us all to appreciate, a loving God as this is who I believe in and unto
Thanks Cycel
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
16,436
449
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Do you have any evidence that you even have the conscience you just referred to? You certainly must feel it because otherwise you wouldn't believe it existed. So what is the source of YOUR conscience? Why do certain things you do or say nag you? Why would a random evolutionary process care about guilt when it's predicated on the idea that only the strong should survive? Why would your brain send your consciousness a signal to feel bad when it doesn't really give a rip whether you live or die? In fact, does the brain even know what death is? It's just a biological neural network after all.

It seems we are both conjecturing here. But in my scenario there's at least an external source involved that actually cares, unlike the brain. For that reason I believe it's the most logical explanation.
When I am weak, then I am strong, why? Because God's grace is sufficient for me, no more conscience of sin, too busy entering his courts with thanksgiving and praise every day, and if I do sin, harm another, I am thankful ot God I am frogiven and go to that persona and ask them for their forgiveness, for what I did. now whether that other person, forgives me or not, does not change the fact that I am forgiven and I showed to that person that I am not taking this Mercy of forgiveness. There forgiving is on them, not me and them and God, now resides on them and God because I know of no one that can truly love as God unless they see these verses in truth:
1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.
1 John 2:2 and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
[h=3]Ephesians 3:16-18[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]16 [/SUP]that he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; [SUP]17 [/SUP]that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, [SUP]18 [/SUP]may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
 
Aug 25, 2013
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My thinking about plasma and electro-magnetism started with personal conversation with a self-published author who also had previous books published by more conventional means.

But, here's another source: 99.999% plasma - (The Plasma Universe Wikipedia-like Encyclopedia)

"The visible universe is 99.999% plasma.


So quite simply, if you don't know how cosmic plasmas behave, you don't know the Universe. And astrophysical plasmas may behave differently to terrestrial plasmas.


It is worth noting that all cosmic plasma carries a magnetic field and electric currents. "
Thanks for that, but I still question whether the spiral structure of a galaxy has much to do with magnetism. It looks, from what I've seen, that gravity is the main factor.
 
Feb 7, 2014
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Thanks for that, but I still question whether the spiral structure of a galaxy has much to do with magnetism. It looks, from what I've seen, that gravity is the main factor.
It could considering that magnetism is the key to free self sustaining energy.