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[zone]

The promise is the promise of the Spirit. The Gentiles are fellow heirs with those of Israel (Jews) who believe and this is the mystery of Christ revealed in the dispensation of grace that was given by revelation to the apostle Paul, which WAS NOT MADE KNOWN to the sons of men in other age (or dispensation) as it is now been revealed by the Spirit to his holy apostles and prophets. The mystery is the Jew and Gentile both having the promise of the Spirit through Christ.

the "dispensation of grace"

here it is again...see if you can read it and still wrongly "divide the word of truth" into "dispensations.

New International Version
Surely you have heard about the administration of God's grace that was given to me for you,

New Living Translation
assuming, by the way, that you know God gave me the special responsibility of extending his grace to you Gentiles.

English Standard Version
assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for you,

New American Standard Bible
if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you;

King James Bible
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Holman Christian Standard Bible
you have heard, haven't you, about the administration of God's grace that He gave to me for you?

International Standard Version
Surely you have heard about the responsibility of administering God's grace that was given to me on your behalf,

NET Bible
if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace that was given to me for you,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
If you have heard of the administration of the grace of God, which is given to me among you.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Certainly, you have heard how God gave me the responsibility of bringing his kindness to you.

Jubilee Bible 2000
if ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which has been given to me in you,

King James 2000 Bible
If you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me toward you:

American King James Version
If you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

American Standard Version
if so be that ye have heard of the dispensation of that grace of God which was given me to you-ward;

Douay-Rheims Bible
If yet you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me towards you:

Darby Bible Translation
(if indeed ye have heard of the administration of the grace of God which has been given to me towards you,

English Revised Version
if so be that ye have heard of the dispensation of that grace of God which was given me to you-ward;

Webster's Bible Translation
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me on your account.

Weymouth New Testament
if, that is, you have heard of the work which God has graciously entrusted to me for your benefit,

World English Bible
if it is so that you have heard of the administration of that grace of God which was given me toward you;

Young's Literal Translation
if, indeed, ye did hear of the dispensation of the grace of God that was given to me in regard to you,

......

paul was graciously given as a steward of the gospel of salvation to the gentiles; just the very same gospel the apostles to the jews gave the jews.

Certainly, you have heard how God gave me the responsibility of bringing his kindness to you.

 

[CoooCaw]

Most of those who show undying love for the plot of land are full of anti-semitism and hate for Muslim and Arab countries around the state of Israel. Just saying.

this is an irrational statement

 

[CoooCaw]

ok, I dont wanna run the risk of misquoting you; TO RECAP,,,,

Jesus ministry first half of 70th week AD26 - AD30 <<<<<<<<<<<< IS THIS CORRECT?
second half of 70th week AD30 - AD34 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< IS THIS CORRECT?

The one who caused the sacrifice and the oblation to cease halfway through the 70th week is THE LIVING GOD >>> IS THIS CORRECT?

the living God

Hebrews 9
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood He entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh; 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

i told you - there are MANY alternatives and considerations in that 70th week - Christ's date of birth - His baptism - His Crucifixion - His Ascension - The Apostles.

i'm not about to go into every one of those because they do not CHANGE WHO STOPPED THE SACRIFICES AND OBLATION.

what matters is that the 70th week is FINISHED, and was finished by the SACRIFICE OF CHRIST ALMIGHTY AND HIS ACCEPTANCE BY GOD.

you can insert gaps and attribut it to SATAN all you want to.
i'll have no part with you in it.

if you are willing to consider the FOLLY of your gap theory, the details of the Greatest Event in History this side of the Second Coming can be discussed. you are not willing because you believe in another gospel.

 

[zone]

You have this spiteful spirit that loves to get people's goat. I suppose you think its from God and is justified. What good purpose does it serve and what do you hope to accomplish in the will of God? Your a grown woman that sounds like a teenager who can't have their way. You have to grow up sometime and speak to others without mocking and ripping their heads off or laying some guilt trip on them. If you were my sister I would be telling you the same. When you can, put a muzzle on it.

sorry Red33....i don't really take instructions from false teachers.

especially guys who say "laying some guilt trip on them" < mkay



The fourth judgment is the one that most concerns us here. The time of this judgment is immediately after the Messiah returns to Earth to establish His literal kingdom in the city of Jerusalem. It is critical to your well-being that you understand what the Bible teaches about the believer’s treatment of God’s chosen people so you will not come under this judgment.

It is important to be right on the Israel question when you consider that being wrong brings you under the curse of God and headed for eternal, everlasting fire with the devil and his angels.

Israel is not a “take it or leave it” subject. It is a life and death matter-eternal life!

- John Hagee, The Lord Has Chosen Zion

 

[jahsoul]

this is an irrational statement

How is this irrational? By definition, Muslims in the Middle East are Semites. How many who profess to love the State of Israel despise Muslims? You have those like John Hagee praying for war again Iran, whose inhabitants are Semites also. Nothing irrational about that.

 

[Linda70]

Ummm, did Israel come before or after Isaac and Ishmael?

Israel existed before both Ishmael and Isaac. The land which is known as Israel today, was called Canaan before Ishmael or Isaac was born. This is the land where Abram settled (Genesis 12:1-5).

Israel is the nation chosen and created by God to preserve His truth in the world and to prepare the way for Christ's coming.

The nation is named after Jacob, who was renamed Israel by God (Genesis 32:28).

So, to answer your question, Israel did exist before Ishmael and Isaac.

 

[CoooCaw]

Bump still waiting. (Though I am not sure it can be answered)

I will give you the same challenge, Sarah:

how about you SPELL OUT what you personally believe and we will see how it stacks up!!

 

[Elin]

Many don't understand that the "mysteries" are in the Old Testament and revealed in the New Testament. The trinity was true for the Jews but it was a mystery for them, the apostles of Christ and Christ made the trinity very clear. I believe the Church of God began in Genesis then make clear in the ministry of Jesus and the Apostles. The prophecies are very mysterious in the O.t. but are make clearer in the N.T.. The first advent of Jesus was make literally clear as Jesus fulfilled those prophecies about His first coming; So God will make the prophecies of Jesus 2nd coming more clear as the end gets closer. m Dan. 9 is very mysterious but with hindsight we can get a good understanding of the 70th wk, yet to come. What is clear in Daniel is :his prophecy covers from his day all the was to the end of the earth as we know it today. the "end " is foretold

That is the end of the OT church on earth, not the NT church.

Revelation is the prophecy of the end of the NT church on earth.

 

[Praus]

the "dispensation of grace"

here it is again...see if you can read it and still wrongly "divide the word of truth" into "dispensations.

King James Bible
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
......

paul was graciously given as a steward of the gospel of salvation to the gentiles; just the very same gospel the apostles to the jews gave the jews.

Certainly, you have heard how God gave me the responsibility of bringing his kindness to you.

Even Messianic Bible translations agree...

Ephesians 3:2
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
I assume that you have heard of the work God in his grace has given me to do for your benefit,

...I think....

Kehillah in Ephesus 3:2
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
If indeed you heard of the pekudat Hashem of the Chen v’Chesed Hashem having been given to me for you,


[video=youtube;zBz7Js_TP-o]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBz7Js_TP-o[/video]

 

[zone]

ok, I dont wanna run the risk of misquoting you; TO RECAP,,,,

Jesus ministry first half of 70th week AD26 - AD30 <<<<<<<<<<<< IS THIS CORRECT?
second half of 70th week AD30 - AD34 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< IS THIS CORRECT?

The one who caused the sacrifice and the oblation to cease halfway through the 70th week is THE LIVING GOD >>> IS THIS CORRECT?

i'll say it once more.
you're going to get varying dates on the birth; baptism; death of Christ the maryrdom of Stephen....or whatever the last marker of the 70th week was: there are several variations and they ALL have one thing in common....they rightly place the 70th week directly AFTER the 69th....COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY FULFILLED.

is that math hard for you? 1; 2; 3; 4; and so on......69; 70. DONE.

i know...no prophecy club distractions. but Honor and Glory for Jesus. and Honor and glory for God who fulfilled His promises to Israel.

GOD HIMSELF is the One who caused ALL other means to CEASE with the Incarnation of the Messiah and His Finished Work.

honestly, if you really wanted to know the Glorious Truth and give God the Glory you'd have gone about looking into it yourself. it's not hard it's thrilling and edifying.

but no, instead you're all about kickin it with CUFI.

tsk tsk.

don't ask me again about things you should be learning yourself.
study. or not - your choice.

 

[zone]

Israel existed before both Ishmael and Isaac. The land which is known as Israel today, was called Canaan before Ishmael or Isaac was born. This is the land where Abram settled (Genesis 12:1-5).

Israel is the nation chosen and created by God to preserve His truth in the world and to prepare the way for Christ's coming.

The nation is named after Jacob, who was renamed Israel by God (Genesis 32:28).

So, to answer your question, Israel did exist before Ishmael and Isaac.

do you understand what Paul is saying?
what is he saying?

here's a hint:

Galatians 4
Example of Hagar and Sarah
21Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;e she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written,

“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”

28 Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. 30 But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31 So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.


this isn't a long or difficult passage Linda.
what was paul saying (in his day)?
He mentions Sarah and Hagar.
what is he saying...do you know?

 

[Praus]

Most of those who show undying love for the plot of land are full of anti-semitism and hate for Muslim and Arab countries around the state of Israel. Just saying.

this is an irrational statement

It makes perfect sense actually.

We already know that Israel is in line for some discipline;

 

[SarahM777]

Israel existed before both Ishmael and Isaac. The land which is known as Israel today, was called Canaan before Ishmael or Isaac was born. This is the land where Abram settled (Genesis 12:1-5).

Israel is the nation chosen and created by God to preserve His truth in the world and to prepare the way for Christ's coming.

The nation is named after Jacob, who was renamed Israel by God (Genesis 32:28).

So, to answer your question, Israel did exist before Ishmael and Isaac.

UMMM Jacob was ISAAC'S SON. Issac and Ishmael were born BEFORE Jacob, Ishmael was Jacob's step UNCLE. Go back and reread Genesis in chronological order.

 

[Elin]

well Todd, your problem is you placed the symbolic thousand years after the Second Coming.
and how is it you have anyone surviving the Second coming and doing anything in the flesh?
oh.....2 resurrections 1,000 years apart.

2 of everything.

Two peoples
Two Plans
Two Trees
Two Covenants
Two gospels

Add to that:

• Two Second Comings--the one the Bible locates after the tribulation; and the one dispensationalism locates before the tribulation)
• Two First Resurrections--the one the Bible locates after the tribulation (Rev 20:4-6); and the one dispensationalism locates before the tribulation)
• Two Last Trumpets--the one the Bible locates after the tribulation (Mt 24:31; 1Co 15:52; 1Th 4:16; Rev 10:7, 11:15); and the one dispensationalism locates before the tribulation
• Two Bodies of Christ--the redeemed in Christ which the Bible locates on earth during the tribulation; and the bride of the Lamb which dispensationalists locate in heaven during the tribulation, and which does not include the body of Christ on earth
• Two Temporal Messianic Kingdoms --the one the Bible inaugurates at Christ's first coming (Da 2:44; Lk 11:20; Jn 18:36; Ro 14:17); and the one dispensationalism inaugurates at Christ's second second coming; i.e., his third coming
• Two Final World Battles--the Armegeddon which the Bible locates at the end of the tribulation and temporal Messianic kingdom (Rev 16:16, 19:19, 20:7-9); and the one dispensationalism locates at the end of its second temporal Messianic kingdom
• Two Final Judgments--the judgment of all mankind which the Bible locates at the end of time (D 12:2; Rev 20:11-15; Mt 25:31-33, 16:27; Jn 5:28-29, 6:39, 40, 44, 54, 11:24; Ac 17:31; 2Pe 3:7, 11-13; 2Ti 4:1 (KJV); Ro 2:16, 14:10; 1Co 1:8, 3:11-15, 4:5, 5:5, 15:22-24; 2Co 5:10; Php 1:6, 10, 2:16; 1Jn 4:17); and the one dispensationalism locates at the beginning of the tribulation.

Because dispensationalism teaches an extra coming of Christ (before the tribulation) which the Bible does not teach, it must multiply events and things which are the same, so as not to contradict the Bible's location of these events with the coming of Christ after the tribulation.

Nowhere does the Bible anywhere teach seven dispensations. Nowhere do Paul, Peter, James, John, Matthew, Mark, Luke or Jude even mention such a doctrine. Dispensationalism supposes that somehow they were ignorant of it, or they forgot to tell us about it.

The Bible knows only two dispensations (Heb 10:9) since Adam (Heb 11:4):
The Old and the New (Heb 8:7, 13), both of grace (Ge 15:6; Gal 3:17-18; Heb 11),
the former a dispensation of types and shadows,
and the latter a dispensation of the realities themselves (Heb 10:1; Col 2:17).

The doctrine of seven dispensaations is a doctrine of man (of his own invention that he is fond of
and wedded to, thinking it is the doctrine of God because it is so agreeable to his own fancy),
nowhere found in the in the word of God.

And if the Bible doesn't teach it, then we don't know it (1Co 4:6).

 

[CoooCaw]

i'll say it once more.
you're going to get varying dates on the birth; baptism; death of Christ the maryrdom of Stephen....or whatever the last marker of the 70th week was: there are several variations and they ALL have one thing in common....they rightly place the 70th week directly AFTER the 69th....COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY FULFILLED.

is that math hard for you? 1; 2; 3; 4; and so on......69; 70. DONE.

i know...no prophecy club distractions. but Honor and Glory for Jesus. and Honor and glory for God who fulfilled His promises to Israel.

GOD HIMSELF is the One who caused ALL other means to CEASE with the Incarnation of the Messiah and His Finished Work.

honestly, if you really wanted to know the Glorious Truth and give God the Glory you'd have gone about looking into it yourself. it's not hard it's thrilling and edifying.

but no, instead you're all about kickin it with CUFI.

tsk tsk.

don't ask me again about things you should be learning yourself.
study. or not - your choice.

I HAD NO IDEA...

that there are so many out there with this fruitcake idea

it does have a logical consistency of its own but it is a logic full of holes

rather than point out the problems this link does it far more thoroughly than I can


The Seventieth Week

Zone, you need to humble yourself and repent; Allowing these evil doctirines in is to give ground to the enemy and to become his tool.

"You will know them by their fruit"

 

[SarahM777]

Add to that:

• Two Second Comings--the one the Bible locates after the tribulation; and the one dispensationalism locates before the tribulation)
• Two First Resurrections--the one the Bible locates after the tribulation (Rev 20:4-6); and the one dispensationalism locates before the tribulation)
• Two Last Trumpets--the one the Bible locates after the tribulation (Mt 24:31; 1Co 15:52; 1Th 4:16; Rev 10:7, 11:15); and the one dispensationalism locates before the tribulation
• Two Bodies of Christ--the redeemed in Christ which the Bible locates on earth during the tribulation; and the bride of the Lamb which dispensationalists locate in heaven during the tribulation, and which does not include the body of Christ on earth
• Two Temporal Messianic Kingdoms --the one the Bible inaugurates at Christ's first coming (Da 2:44; Lk 11:20; Jn 18:36; Ro 14:17); and the one dispensationalism inaugurates at Christ's second second coming; i.e., his third coming
• Two Final World Battles--the Armegeddon which the Bible locates at the end of the tribulation and temporal Messianic kingdom (Rev 16:16, 19:19, 20:7-9); and the one dispensationalism locates at the end of its second temporal Messianic kingdom
• Two Final Judgments--the judgment of all mankind which the Bible locates at the end of time (D 12:2; Rev 20:11-15; Mt 25:31-33, 16:27; Jn 5:28-29, 6:39, 40, 44, 54, 11:24; Ac 17:31; 2Pe 3:7, 11-13; 2Ti 4:1 (KJV); Ro 2:16, 14:10; 1Co 1:8, 3:11-15, 4:5, 5:5, 15:22-24; 2Co 5:10; Php 1:6, 10, 2:16; 1Jn 4:17); and the one dispensationalism locates at the beginning of the tribulation.

Because dispensationalism teaches an extra coming of Christ (before the tribulation) which the Bible does not teach, it must multiply events and things which are the same, so as not to contradict the Bible's location of these events with the coming of Christ after the tribulation.

Nowhere does the Bible anywhere teach seven dispensations. Nowhere do Paul, Peter, James, John, Matthew, Mark, Luke or Jude even mention such a doctrine. Dispensationalism supposes that somehow they were ignorant of it, or they forgot to tell us about it.

The Bible knows only two dispensations (Heb 10:9) since Adam (Heb 11:4):
The Old and the New (Heb 8:7, 13), both of grace (Ge 15:6; Gal 3:17-18; Heb 11),
the former a dispensation of types and shadows,
and the latter a dispensation of the realities themselves (Heb 10:1; Col 2:17).

The doctrine of seven dispensaations is a doctrine of man (of his own invention that he is fond of
and wedded to, thinking it is the doctrine of God because it is so agreeable to his own fancy),
nowhere found in the in the word of God.

And if the Bible doesn't teach it, then we don't know it (1Co 4:6).

Add to that a THIRD temple being built in which Jesus nor John ever mention it being built. John nor any of the of the apostles ever once mentions that JERUSALEM had ALREADY been destroyed. (Which would be very odd because Jesus told them it would happen and why would John leave that out?) And John never once mentions that the temple he was to measure is a DIFFERENT temple then the very temple he was so familiar with.

 

[zone]

I HAD NO IDEA...

that there are so many out there with this fruitcake idea

it does have a logical consistency of its own but it is a logic full of holes

rather than point out the problems this link does it far more thoroughly than I can


The Seventieth Week

Zone, you need to humble yourself and repent; Allowing these evil doctirines in is to give ground to the enemy and to become his tool.

"You will know them by their fruit"

from your source:

The Coming Prince

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week" (Dan.9:26-27).

Here we read that the people of the "prince that shall come" shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The preterists and the futurist agree that this destruction of Jerusalem is referring to the events of A.D. 70.

Notice that the verse makes it clear that it was only the "people" of the prince that shall come who destroyed the city and not that prince himself.

Since it was the Roman army that destroyed Jerusalem in A.D. 70 then "the prince that shall come" must refer to a man from a revived Roman empire.

......

"and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary"

CooCaw....was Titus future to Daniel?
did Titus have to climb the walls and tear down the city himself?
L...........................O...................................L

goodnight dear.

 

[Elin]

Add to that:

• Two Second Comings--the one the Bible locates after the tribulation; and the one dispensationalism locates before the tribulation)
• Two First Resurrections--the one the Bible locates after the tribulation (Rev 20:4-6); and the one dispensationalism locates before the tribulation)
• Two Last Trumpets--the one the Bible locates after the tribulation (Mt 24:31; 1Co 15:52; 1Th 4:16; Rev 10:7, 11:15); and the one dispensationalism locates before the tribulation
• Two Bodies of Christ--the redeemed in Christ which the Bible locates on earth during the tribulation; and the bride of the Lamb which dispensationalists locate in heaven during the tribulation, and which does not include the body of Christ on earth
• Two Temporal Messianic Kingdoms --the one the Bible inaugurates at Christ's first coming (Da 2:44; Lk 11:20; Jn 18:36; Ro 14:17); and the one dispensationalism inaugurates at Christ's second second coming; i.e., his third coming
• Two Final World Battles--the Armegeddon which the Bible locates at the end of the tribulation and temporal Messianic kingdom (Rev 16:16, 19:19, 20:7-9); and the one dispensationalism locates at the end of its second temporal Messianic kingdom
• Two Final Judgments--the judgment of all mankind which the Bible locates at the end of time (D 12:2; Rev 20:11-15; Mt 25:31-33, 16:27; Jn 5:28-29, 6:39, 40, 44, 54, 11:24; Ac 17:31; 2Pe 3:7, 11-13; 2Ti 4:1 (KJV); Ro 2:16, 14:10; 1Co 1:8, 3:11-15, 4:5, 5:5, 15:22-24; 2Co 5:10; Php 1:6, 10, 2:16; 1Jn 4:17); and the one dispensationalism locates at the beginning of the tribulation.

Because dispensationalism teaches an extra coming of Christ (before the tribulation) which the Bible does not teach, it must multiply events and things which are the same, so as not to contradict the Bible's location of these events with the coming of Christ after the tribulation.

Nowhere does the Bible anywhere teach seven dispensations. Nowhere do Paul, Peter, James, John, Matthew, Mark, Luke or Jude even mention such a doctrine. Dispensationalism supposes that somehow they were ignorant of it, or they forgot to tell us about it.

The Bible knows only two dispensations (Heb 10:9) since Adam (Heb 11:4):
The Old and the New (Heb 8:7, 13), both of grace (Ge 15:6; Gal 3:17-18; Heb 11),
the former a dispensation of types and shadows,
and the latter a dispensation of the realities themselves (Heb 10:1; Col 2:17).

The doctrine of seven dispensaations is a doctrine of man (of his own invention that he is fond of
and wedded to, thinking it is the doctrine of God because it is so agreeable to his own fancy),
nowhere found in the in the word of God.

And if the Bible doesn't teach it, then we don't know it (1Co 4:6).

Add to that a THIRD temple being built in which Jesus nor John ever mention it being built. John nor any of the of the apostles ever once mentions that JERUSALEM had ALREADY been destroyed. (Which would be very odd because Jesus told them it would happen and why would John leave that out?) And John never once mentions that the temple he was to measure is a DIFFERENT temple then the very temple he was so familiar with.

Yeah, add that too. . .

 

[SarahM777]

I will give you the same challenge, Sarah:

how about you SPELL OUT what you personally believe and we will see how it stacks up!!

What is so hard to understand that so many have tried to put dispensations in there and they said certain things would happen and they did not. Most have claimed the Lord was showing them these things. If the Lord was truly showing them things then how did get them wrong? The Lord can NOT LIE. So where are the lies coming from? You have people on one side claiming it will be a revived Roman Empire,some are claiming it's the Muslims. How can they both be right if the Lord is revealing this to them? It is people trying to force things into the text that are NOT there. Yet most will IGNORE those facts that you so many saying different things,yet many are suppose to be spirit filled,and yet both say they are right. How is that even possible? Isn't one of the things the spirits gives is DISCERNMENT? Why does that seem to be so lacking?

The main focus of the Bible is God's eternal purposes and plans to redeem mankind. The focus is on whom God would send into the world to do so. The main theme throughout the Bible is about JESUS. Israel is the people that God chose through whom the Messiah would come.

 

[Linda70]

UMMM Jacob was ISAAC'S SON. Issac and Ishmael were born BEFORE Jacob, Ishmael was Jacob's step UNCLE. Go back and reread Genesis in chronological order.

You go back and re-read and study Genesis. Ishmael was the son of Abraham and Hagar. Isaac was the son of Abraham and Sarah. Jacob was the son of Isaac and Rebekah.

There is nothing wrong in the chronology I posted....you folks take pleasure in "nit picking" at the silliest things to continue in your anti-Israel rhetoric. It really doesn't matter if Esau married one of Ishmael's daughters and made Jacob Ishmael's step uncle. That doesn't change the fact that the nation, which we call Israel today, existed as Canaan before Ishmael and Isaac were born....and that same nation that was called Canaan, was named after Jacob, who was renamed Israel by God (Genesis 32:28).

The covenant promises God gave to Abraham in Genesis 12:1-3 and Genesis 15:18-21, were established through Isaac, not Ishmael (Genesis 17:15-21). God confirmed those same promises through Jacob (Genesis 28:13-15), not Esau, who sold his birthright for a bowl of pottage (Genesis 25:27-34).