-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
1) yes you have. the reality of indoctrination is....it's blinding. you don't know it.
2) oh please. if only. Katy, i wish the best for you. but you really should put aside all this stuff and get serious. it's got something attached to it that is literally BLINDING. flee from it!
what do you say about John Hagees gospel Katy?
he believes exactly what you believe.
2) oh please. if only. Katy, i wish the best for you. but you really should put aside all this stuff and get serious. it's got something attached to it that is literally BLINDING. flee from it!
what do you say about John Hagees gospel Katy?
he believes exactly what you believe.
M
To the likes of Linda, Cooo, BradC etc., here is a good link to some similar discussions around Daniel.
http://christianchat.com/miscellaneous/74208-book-daniel.html
I really liked the link http://www.preteristarchive.com/Book...ventyweeks.pdf
It talks about how Daniel's prophecy is fulfilled.
http://christianchat.com/miscellaneous/74208-book-daniel.html
I really liked the link http://www.preteristarchive.com/Book...ventyweeks.pdf
It talks about how Daniel's prophecy is fulfilled.
they don't care!
it's "Catholic" you see.
they don't want anything to do with even looking.
Daniel 11
36And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 37Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. 38But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. 39Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
HEROD ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
40And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. 41He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. 42He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.
AUGUSTUS ^^^^^^^^^^^
44But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. 45And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
HEROD ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
......
but oh no: God didn't explain EVERY SINGLE DETAIL ABOUT THE 70 WEEKS TO DANIEL 7 WAYS.....no, this is a future "The Antichrist":
Daniel 11
36And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 37Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. 38But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. 39Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
it's "Catholic" you see.
they don't want anything to do with even looking.
Daniel 11
36And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 37Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. 38But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. 39Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
HEROD ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
40And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. 41He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. 42He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.
AUGUSTUS ^^^^^^^^^^^
44But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. 45And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
HEROD ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
......
but oh no: God didn't explain EVERY SINGLE DETAIL ABOUT THE 70 WEEKS TO DANIEL 7 WAYS.....no, this is a future "The Antichrist":
Daniel 11
36And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 37Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. 38But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. 39Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
your false doctrine is NEW.
pretribulation rapture and all that garbage is the worst thing ever to pretend it's part of the church.
but....it is fulfilling a role indeed.
the Church will be purged.
false doctrine will be purged.
people are leaving dispensationalism in droves....but there will be those who hold to it...because they are delivered over to it.
some things never change:
Deuteronomy 13:3
you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.
pretribulation rapture and all that garbage is the worst thing ever to pretend it's part of the church.
but....it is fulfilling a role indeed.
the Church will be purged.
false doctrine will be purged.
people are leaving dispensationalism in droves....but there will be those who hold to it...because they are delivered over to it.
some things never change:
Deuteronomy 13:3
you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.
Last edited:
Dispensationalism
Among conservative Christians in Britain, this unity of political destiny and religious fulfillment was given its theological form in the hands of an Irish pastor J.N. Darby. As Herzl was the father of Jewish Zionism, one could argue that Darby was the father of Christian Zionism. Darby's system - soon called Dispensationalism - taught a literal fulfillment of prophesies in the near-present age. He used the biblical books of Daniel, Ezekiel, Zechariah and Revelation to weave a consistent picture of the Last Days. The church is raptured, the anti-Christ arises, Armageddon erupts, and Christ returns to establish his kingdom on earth. But above all, the revival of Israel is the catalyst of the End Times.
Despite eight missionary trips to America, Darby was greeted here with indifference. But when leading evangelists such as Dwight Moody, Billy Sunday and Harry Ironsides saw how the drama and fear and hope in this scenario influenced audiences, Darby's views caught on like wildfire. In 1881, for instance, Horatio and Anna Spafford and 16 friends opened the American Colony in the Muslim Quarter of the Old City to watch - as they put it - "prophesy being fulfilled."
William Blackstone (1841-1935) was a Chicago evangelist and student of Moody. In 1878 he published Jesus is Coming which was America's first Dispensational best-seller. The book went through three editions and was translated into 42 languages. In 1890 Blackstone was visiting Jewish settlements in the Holy Land and organizing conferences in Chicago to restore Jews to Palestine. Blackstone worked closely with Jewish Zionists and in 1918 was hailed by the Zionist Conference of Philadelphia as a "Father of Zionism." In 1956 Israel memorialized him by naming a forest in his name.
In 1909 Cyrus Scofield published a popular study bible, the Scofield Reference Bible, and in its footnotes readers throughout America inherited Darby's theological program. (To date over 2 million of them have been sold.) In 1917 five weeks after the Balfour Declaration, the Turks handed Jerusalem over to Britain to the amazement of prophesy watchers. In 1918 dispensationalists organized their first prophesy conferences and they continued for decades. Before long - throughout the 1920s and for the next 40 years - Dispensationalism tied to Israel and prophesy became the litmus test of evangelical orthodoxy.
Dispensationalism had a variety of detractors over time and today we cannot think of all evangelicals as dispensationalists. Nevertheless, while formal Dispensationalism with its complex view of the covenants has lost a large following, what remains is the skeleton of its eschatology. Technically called pre-tribulation, pre-millennialism it defends Darby's basic outline: Israel returns to the Holy Land, the church is raptured, a tribulation brings Armageddon, and Christ returns.
This framework remained prominent for evangelicals but throughout the 1940s dispensationalists began to believe that the birth of Israel was imminent. When it occurred in 1948, Dispensationalists were euphoric. The key piece was now in place. Israel's swift victory in 1967 - hailed by many as a divine miracle - sparked even more zeal for prophesy. Writers such as Walvoord and Ryrie viewed modern history through this Biblical lens for a new generation. In 1970 Hal Lindsey then published The Late Great Planet Earth which popularized and dramatized the unfolding of political events in Israel and how the Bible predicted them. To date, Lindsey's original book has sold 25 million copies. More recently Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins' popular Left Behind series fictionalizes this eschatology and has sold over 50 million copies in 11 volumes.
These remarkable numbers of publishing sales are important because they show that among countless Christians in America, there is a residual eschatology at work - and most of them have no idea where it came from. Just ask someone who goes to church how they think the world will end. Many will recite Lindsey to you claiming that this is what the Bible teaches.
Christian Zionism
Today a movement called Christian Zionism has harnessed these disparate parts. Its advocates have shed much of Dispensationalism's theological program but have kept its eschatology. Christian Zionism weds religion with politics and interprets biblical faithfulness in terms of fidelity to Israel's future. Its spokespersons are today well-known among those on the Christian Right: Jerry Falwell, Ralph Reed, Pat Robertson, Ed McAteer, Gary Bauer, and Kay Arthur. Those committed to Christian Zionism share the same five core beliefs:
(1) The Covenant. God's covenant with Israel is eternal and unconditional. Therefore the promises of land given to Abraham will never be overturned. This means that the church has not replaced Israel and that Israel's privileges have never been revoked despite unfaithfulness.
(2) The Church. God's plan has always been for the redemption of Israel. Yet when Israel failed to follow Jesus, the church was born as an afterthought or "parenthesis." Thus at the rapture the church will be removed and Israel will once again become God's primary agent in the world. We now live in 'the times of the Gentiles' which will conclude soon. This means that there are two covenants now at work, that given through Moses and the covenant of Christ. But the new covenant in no way makes the older covenant obsolete.
(3) Blessing Modern Israel. We must take Gen. 12:3 literally and apply it to modern Israel: "I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you." Therefore Christians have a spiritual obligation to bless Israel and "pray for the peace of Jerusalem." To fail to bless Israel, to fail to support Israel's political survival today, will incur divine judgment.
(4) Prophesy. The prophetic books of the Bible are describing events of today and do not principally refer to events in Biblical times. Therefore when we look at, say, Daniel 7, if we possess the right interpretative skills, we can see how modern history is unfolding. This quest for prophesy has spawned countless books interpreting Middle East history through the Bible.
(5) Modern Israel and Eschatology. The modern state of Israel is a catalyst for the prophetic countdown. If these are the last days, then we should expect an unraveling of civilization, the rise of evil, the loss of international peace and equilibrium, a coming antichrist, and tests of faithfulness to Israel. Above all, political alignments today will determine our position on the fateful day of Armageddon. Since the crisis of 9/11, the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, it has been easy to persuade the public that history is unraveling precisely as dispensationalism predicted.
.....
It would not be difficult to offer fatal criticisms of this theological framework. Many biblical scholars have already done so. For instance, the covenant's promises are conditional and their blessings are revoked when there is faithlessness. The Babylonian exile is the best example of this.
But in addition the New Testament is making a stunning claim about genuine continuity between the covenants, that Christians are the children of Abraham and heirs of his promises.
But the most important critique - and here I think we discover the Achilles' heel - is that Christian Zionism is committed to what I term a "territorial religion." It assumes that God's interests are focused on a land, a locale, a place. From a NT perspective, the land is holy by reference to what transpired there in history. But it no longer has an intrinsic part to play in God's program for the world.
This is what Stephen pointed to in his speech in Acts 7. The land and the temple are now secondary. God's wishes to reveal himself to the entire world.
And this insight cost Stephen his life.
~
Christian Zionism, Evangelicals and Israel
Gary M. Burge, Ph.D.
Among conservative Christians in Britain, this unity of political destiny and religious fulfillment was given its theological form in the hands of an Irish pastor J.N. Darby. As Herzl was the father of Jewish Zionism, one could argue that Darby was the father of Christian Zionism. Darby's system - soon called Dispensationalism - taught a literal fulfillment of prophesies in the near-present age. He used the biblical books of Daniel, Ezekiel, Zechariah and Revelation to weave a consistent picture of the Last Days. The church is raptured, the anti-Christ arises, Armageddon erupts, and Christ returns to establish his kingdom on earth. But above all, the revival of Israel is the catalyst of the End Times.
Despite eight missionary trips to America, Darby was greeted here with indifference. But when leading evangelists such as Dwight Moody, Billy Sunday and Harry Ironsides saw how the drama and fear and hope in this scenario influenced audiences, Darby's views caught on like wildfire. In 1881, for instance, Horatio and Anna Spafford and 16 friends opened the American Colony in the Muslim Quarter of the Old City to watch - as they put it - "prophesy being fulfilled."
William Blackstone (1841-1935) was a Chicago evangelist and student of Moody. In 1878 he published Jesus is Coming which was America's first Dispensational best-seller. The book went through three editions and was translated into 42 languages. In 1890 Blackstone was visiting Jewish settlements in the Holy Land and organizing conferences in Chicago to restore Jews to Palestine. Blackstone worked closely with Jewish Zionists and in 1918 was hailed by the Zionist Conference of Philadelphia as a "Father of Zionism." In 1956 Israel memorialized him by naming a forest in his name.
In 1909 Cyrus Scofield published a popular study bible, the Scofield Reference Bible, and in its footnotes readers throughout America inherited Darby's theological program. (To date over 2 million of them have been sold.) In 1917 five weeks after the Balfour Declaration, the Turks handed Jerusalem over to Britain to the amazement of prophesy watchers. In 1918 dispensationalists organized their first prophesy conferences and they continued for decades. Before long - throughout the 1920s and for the next 40 years - Dispensationalism tied to Israel and prophesy became the litmus test of evangelical orthodoxy.
Dispensationalism had a variety of detractors over time and today we cannot think of all evangelicals as dispensationalists. Nevertheless, while formal Dispensationalism with its complex view of the covenants has lost a large following, what remains is the skeleton of its eschatology. Technically called pre-tribulation, pre-millennialism it defends Darby's basic outline: Israel returns to the Holy Land, the church is raptured, a tribulation brings Armageddon, and Christ returns.
This framework remained prominent for evangelicals but throughout the 1940s dispensationalists began to believe that the birth of Israel was imminent. When it occurred in 1948, Dispensationalists were euphoric. The key piece was now in place. Israel's swift victory in 1967 - hailed by many as a divine miracle - sparked even more zeal for prophesy. Writers such as Walvoord and Ryrie viewed modern history through this Biblical lens for a new generation. In 1970 Hal Lindsey then published The Late Great Planet Earth which popularized and dramatized the unfolding of political events in Israel and how the Bible predicted them. To date, Lindsey's original book has sold 25 million copies. More recently Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins' popular Left Behind series fictionalizes this eschatology and has sold over 50 million copies in 11 volumes.
These remarkable numbers of publishing sales are important because they show that among countless Christians in America, there is a residual eschatology at work - and most of them have no idea where it came from. Just ask someone who goes to church how they think the world will end. Many will recite Lindsey to you claiming that this is what the Bible teaches.
Christian Zionism
Today a movement called Christian Zionism has harnessed these disparate parts. Its advocates have shed much of Dispensationalism's theological program but have kept its eschatology. Christian Zionism weds religion with politics and interprets biblical faithfulness in terms of fidelity to Israel's future. Its spokespersons are today well-known among those on the Christian Right: Jerry Falwell, Ralph Reed, Pat Robertson, Ed McAteer, Gary Bauer, and Kay Arthur. Those committed to Christian Zionism share the same five core beliefs:
(1) The Covenant. God's covenant with Israel is eternal and unconditional. Therefore the promises of land given to Abraham will never be overturned. This means that the church has not replaced Israel and that Israel's privileges have never been revoked despite unfaithfulness.
(2) The Church. God's plan has always been for the redemption of Israel. Yet when Israel failed to follow Jesus, the church was born as an afterthought or "parenthesis." Thus at the rapture the church will be removed and Israel will once again become God's primary agent in the world. We now live in 'the times of the Gentiles' which will conclude soon. This means that there are two covenants now at work, that given through Moses and the covenant of Christ. But the new covenant in no way makes the older covenant obsolete.
(3) Blessing Modern Israel. We must take Gen. 12:3 literally and apply it to modern Israel: "I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you." Therefore Christians have a spiritual obligation to bless Israel and "pray for the peace of Jerusalem." To fail to bless Israel, to fail to support Israel's political survival today, will incur divine judgment.
(4) Prophesy. The prophetic books of the Bible are describing events of today and do not principally refer to events in Biblical times. Therefore when we look at, say, Daniel 7, if we possess the right interpretative skills, we can see how modern history is unfolding. This quest for prophesy has spawned countless books interpreting Middle East history through the Bible.
(5) Modern Israel and Eschatology. The modern state of Israel is a catalyst for the prophetic countdown. If these are the last days, then we should expect an unraveling of civilization, the rise of evil, the loss of international peace and equilibrium, a coming antichrist, and tests of faithfulness to Israel. Above all, political alignments today will determine our position on the fateful day of Armageddon. Since the crisis of 9/11, the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, it has been easy to persuade the public that history is unraveling precisely as dispensationalism predicted.
.....
It would not be difficult to offer fatal criticisms of this theological framework. Many biblical scholars have already done so. For instance, the covenant's promises are conditional and their blessings are revoked when there is faithlessness. The Babylonian exile is the best example of this.
But in addition the New Testament is making a stunning claim about genuine continuity between the covenants, that Christians are the children of Abraham and heirs of his promises.
But the most important critique - and here I think we discover the Achilles' heel - is that Christian Zionism is committed to what I term a "territorial religion." It assumes that God's interests are focused on a land, a locale, a place. From a NT perspective, the land is holy by reference to what transpired there in history. But it no longer has an intrinsic part to play in God's program for the world.
This is what Stephen pointed to in his speech in Acts 7. The land and the temple are now secondary. God's wishes to reveal himself to the entire world.
And this insight cost Stephen his life.
~
Christian Zionism, Evangelicals and Israel
Gary M. Burge, Ph.D.
Galatians 3:29
If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
....
Galatians 1
8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
....
Galatians 1
8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
L
Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Romans 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
Romans 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
2 Timothy 4:1-5
"I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry"
Proverbs 6:12-19
These six things the Lord hates,
Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
A proud look,
A lying tongue,
Hands that shed innocent blood,
A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that are swift in running to evil,
A false witness who speaks lies,
And one who sows discord among brethren.
"I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry"
Proverbs 6:12-19
These six things the Lord hates,
Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
A proud look,
A lying tongue,
Hands that shed innocent blood,
A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that are swift in running to evil,
A false witness who speaks lies,
And one who sows discord among brethren.
If today, the Master came
To catch His Bride away
Would you be left behind in shame?
Or enter that Glorious Day?
post in your own words - backed up BY scripture - JUST the pretribulation rapture.
start a new thread. it won't take long.
you being raptured while the jews get massacred by your Antichrist is the most antisemitic teaching there is - but you hide it.
HURRY! wave your flags and get the jews to ISRAEL....then you can DISAPPEAR while they get what's coming...RIGHT?
To catch His Bride away
Would you be left behind in shame?
Or enter that Glorious Day?
post in your own words - backed up BY scripture - JUST the pretribulation rapture.
start a new thread. it won't take long.
you being raptured while the jews get massacred by your Antichrist is the most antisemitic teaching there is - but you hide it.
HURRY! wave your flags and get the jews to ISRAEL....then you can DISAPPEAR while they get what's coming...RIGHT?
apply this to pretribulation apostates and you have it right.
they've SEVERED jews from the Messiah and the Gospel and the Covenant.
there's no unity with false brothers who do not understand even the most BASIC teaching we have:
Romans 1:16
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
NO, the Jews changed God's Plan, eh?
MYSTERY GENTILE BOGUS CHURCH AGE GAP rubbish?
my brothers don't teach this repeatedly year after year.
they've SEVERED jews from the Messiah and the Gospel and the Covenant.
there's no unity with false brothers who do not understand even the most BASIC teaching we have:
Romans 1:16
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
NO, the Jews changed God's Plan, eh?
MYSTERY GENTILE BOGUS CHURCH AGE GAP rubbish?
my brothers don't teach this repeatedly year after year.