Churches that Don't Allow Tongues and Prophecy in Meetings disobey Bible

[zone]

No it's not, for you are using the context of the one set of scriptures, but not the context of all of the scriptures in this book.

1. Acts 10:44-48 (KJV) [SUP]44 [/SUP]While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. [SUP]45 [/SUP]And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. [SUP]46 [/SUP]For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, [SUP]47 [/SUP]Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? [SUP]48 [/SUP]And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

2. Acts 19:1-7 (KJV) [SUP]1 [/SUP]And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, [SUP]2 [/SUP]He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. [SUP]5 [/SUP]When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. [SUP]7 [/SUP]And all the men were about twelve.

In both cases, the groups were listening to the apostles because they already knew their language. But I'm sure you'll find something to spin it in another direction.

how can you continue to be afraid to see what the text is saying?


glóssa: the tongue, a language
Original Word: γλῶσσα, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: glóssa
Phonetic Spelling: (gloce-sah')
Short Definition: the tongue, a language, nation
Definition: the tongue, a language, a nation (usually distinguished by their speech).

1100 glṓssa – tongue, used of flowing speech; (figuratively) speaking, inspired by God, like the evidence of tongues-speaking supplied by the Lord in the book of Acts to demonstrate the arrival of the new age of the covenant (i.e. NT times).

[The normative experience of the 120 believers received "tongues (1100 /glṓssa) as of fire" (Ac 2:3) and miraculously spoke in other actual languages, i.e. that they could not speak before (Ac 2:4f). This sign was repeated in Ac 10:46, 19:6 – furnishing ample proof (three attestations) that the Lord had incorporated all believers into Christ's (mystical) body (1 Cor 12:13).]


furnishing ample proof (three attestations) that the Lord had incorporated all believers into Christ's (mystical) body (1 Cor 12:13)

 

[unclefester]

Where can I change my settings so I can do that?

Say "uncle" first Go to your profile. Top right click "settings". Left side column click "general settings". Top box ... "invisible mode "on"

 

[Mammachickadee]

Considering the fact the gifts of tongues and prophecy are given by the Holy Spirit, no church can ''forbid'' such practices. If it's an honest-Spirit-given case of tongues and prophecy chances are that person would not be fooled by a church shaking their fists at it either.

 

[zone]

Where can I change my settings so I can do that?

gonna join the hiding-in-the-woodwork-secret-plan-clan?

come on stephen.
people love you.
this is about everybody's convictions.
you have yours....you're just in error

 

[unclefester]

gonna join the hiding-in-the-woodwork-secret-plan-clan?

come on stephen.
people love you.
this is about everybody's convictions.
you have yours....you're just in error

Amen. We're all in this together

 

[Stephen63]

how can you continue to be afraid to see what the text is saying?


glóssa: the tongue, a language
Original Word: γλῶσσα, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: glóssa
Phonetic Spelling: (gloce-sah')
Short Definition: the tongue, a language, nation
Definition: the tongue, a language, a nation (usually distinguished by their speech).

1100 glṓssa – tongue, used of flowing speech; (figuratively) speaking, inspired by God, like the evidence of tongues-speaking supplied by the Lord in the book of Acts to demonstrate the arrival of the new age of the covenant (i.e. NT times).

[The normative experience of the 120 believers received "tongues (1100 /glṓssa) as of fire" (Ac 2:3) and miraculously spoke in other actual languages, i.e. that they could not speak before (Ac 2:4f). This sign was repeated in Ac 10:46, 19:6 – furnishing ample proof (three attestations) that the Lord had incorporated all believers into Christ's (mystical) body (1 Cor 12:13).]


furnishing ample proof (three attestations) that the Lord had incorporated all believers into Christ's (mystical) body (1 Cor 12:13)

1 Corinthians 14:1-5 (NASB) [SUP]1 [/SUP]Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries. [SUP]3 [/SUP]But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation. [SUP]4 [/SUP]One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.

1 Corinthians 14:1-5 (NLT) [SUP]1 [/SUP]Let love be your highest goal! But you should also desire the special abilities the Spirit gives—especially the ability to prophesy. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For if you have the ability to speak in tongues, you will be talking only to God, since people won’t be able to understand you. You will be speaking by the power of the Spirit, but it will all be mysterious. [SUP]3 [/SUP]But one who prophesies strengthens others, encourages them, and comforts them. [SUP]4 [/SUP]A person who speaks in tongues is strengthened personally, but one who speaks a word of prophecy strengthens the entire church. [SUP]5 [/SUP]I wish you could all speak in tongues, but even more I wish you could all prophesy. For prophecy is greater than speaking in tongues, unless someone interprets what you are saying so that the whole church will be strengthened.

The KJV says "unknown tongues" in V2. It is added to show understanding that what is addressed as an "unknown tongue" is merely a language that nobody present knows. The rest of the verses state this: "no one understands", "edifies himself", etc
This very scripture indicates that when this happens without an interpretation, no one understands. Not the speaker, or the hearers. It may be a known language, but it will be one that no one present knows. The Book says it, not me. I have no problem with it being a known language.

 

[presidente]

it's been the church's position since the 2nd century....until these new movements.

No it hasn't. It's been a minute minority position and gained some popularity after the reformation. Even during the time of the Montanists, mainstream 'orthodox' or 'catholic' Christians believed in the gift of prophecy. After Montanus, Prisca, and Maximilla were dead, Eusebius records a debate between a Montanist and a Christian. The Montanist spoke of their prophecies in the past. The Christian said that prophecy was still with the church and that the apostle wrote that it would continue until the Lord returned. I read in an online article recently about a scholar who had studied the so-called 'church fathers' and found that those that mentioned I Corinthians 13's 'that which is perfect' saw it as referring to a future age, not the pop interpretation promoted by many unscholarly cessationists that it refers to the completion of the canon. Even MacArthur, whose video got posted in the thread, believes it refers to the eternal state.

Of course, miracles and things of that nature were accepted as possible by Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox up through the Reformation. You can find some quotes here and there that cessationists rely on, but that was not the unanimous or standard position. Augustine is quoted by cessationists, but later in his ministry, he recorded supernatural healings and urged people to testify and make it known.

 

[unclefester]

And for the record, I have experienced so much of God's love, grace and awesome power in my life that I could never deny that He's still working supernaturally in the world and in my life ... and for my own good. What an awesome God he is !

 

[Stephen63]

Amen. We're all in this together

This isn't the Red Green Show. Sheesh.

 

[presidente]

NO FAIR ! Two against one

Who? Me and the Bible against you?

 

[Stephen63]

No it hasn't. It's been a minute minority position and gained some popularity after the reformation. Even during the time of the Montanists, mainstream 'orthodox' or 'catholic' Christians believed in the gift of prophecy. After Montanus, Prisca, and Maximilla were dead, Eusebius records a debate between a Montanist and a Christian. The Montanist spoke of their prophecies in the past. The Christian said that prophecy was still with the church and that the apostle wrote that it would continue until the Lord returned. I read in an online article recently about a scholar who had studied the so-called 'church fathers' and found that those that mentioned I Corinthians 13's 'that which is perfect' saw it as referring to a future age, not the pop interpretation promoted by many unscholarly cessationists that it refers to the completion of the canon. Even MacArthur, whose video got posted in the thread, believes it refers to the eternal state.

Of course, miracles and things of that nature were accepted as possible by Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox up through the Reformation. You can find some quotes here and there that cessationists rely on, but that was not the unanimous or standard position. Augustine is quoted by cessationists, but later in his ministry, he recorded supernatural healings and urged people to testify and make it known.

Johnny Mac said that? Well, It must be true if Johnny Mac said it!!! LOL!!!

 

[unclefester]

Drats ... I went and opened my big yap. Now I gotta pretend I wanna go for a coffee ride with the missus -lol God bless and see ya tonite

 

[zone]

1 Corinthians 14:1-5 (NASB) [SUP]1 [/SUP]Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries. [SUP]3 [/SUP]But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation. [SUP]4 [/SUP]One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.

1 Corinthians 12
4Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. 7To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

so, what are they interpreting?
from one known language to another - right?
the message - The Wonderful Works of God - The Good News - is what the message was.

they didn't have their KJVs and ESVs to refer to.
they were getting it all in real time.

a brand NEW church...with NEW doctrine. NEW instructions.
we know that now, right?
because we read it.

1 Corinthians 14:1-5 (NLT) [SUP]1 [/SUP]Let love be your highest goal! But you should also desire the special abilities the Spirit gives—especially the ability to prophesy. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For if you have the ability to speak in tongues, you will be talking only to God, since people won’t be able to understand you. You will be speaking by the power of the Spirit, but it will all be mysterious. [SUP]3 [/SUP]But one who prophesies strengthens others, encourages them, and comforts them. [SUP]4 [/SUP]A person who speaks in tongues is strengthened personally, but one who speaks a word of prophecy strengthens the entire church. [SUP]5 [/SUP]I wish you could all speak in tongues, but even more I wish you could all prophesy. For prophecy is greater than speaking in tongues, unless someone interprets what you are saying so that the whole church will be strengthened.

same. having that miraculous language in which God was revealing "mysteries" (which are no longer mysteries to us - any they got that God thought we needed are recorded - the "twinkling of an eye"; the mystery of the Gospel (Eph), etc....

but NONE of those gifts are in use today.
if we just read what it says, in context, as an historical narrative, we see that clearly.

The KJV says "unknown tongues" in V2. It is added to show understanding that what is addressed as an "unknown tongue" is merely a language that nobody present knows. The rest of the verses state this: "no one understands", "edifies himself", etc
This very scripture indicates that when this happens without an interpretation, no one understands. Not the speaker, or the hearers. It may be a known language, but it will be one that no one present knows. The Book says it, not me. I have no problem with it being a known language.

well, actually, it says, if you see it as cessationists do - that the language gifts were revelatory - that the gifted one, if there was no interpreter present.....should STILL speak to God silently (prayer; communion; receiving the revealed knowledge), because even though he could not translate the language - he KNEW what the message was....via the Spirit.

that's why they were so excited.

but if no one could translate - or no one else knew the NEW language the guy recived, the guy would STILL be edified (built up in his faith), if he kept silent. he didn;t LOSE the message. it was just between him and God until someone could interpret (translate). and, they had prophets as well.

the prophets were subject to the prophets - they had to to speak among themselves, one at a time, and judge among themselves what was true and what wasn't. ultimately The Apostles called the shots. that's clear, since they were the Called and Chosen, and they penned the NT. they were all prophets. but not all prophets were apostles.

 

[zone]

1. That which is Perfect versus that which is in part: “[W]hether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail;…whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when That which is Perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.” (I Corinthians 13:8-10)

What is “That which is Perfect,” and what is “that which is in part”? That which is in part were the revelation gifts of "tongues," "prophecy" and "the word of knowledge." Paul was given part of the revelation, Peter was given part, the James and Jude other parts, Luke and Mark penned parts, Matthew was given part, and John completed the New Testament revelation with his part.

All these men had either the gift of prophecy, or the word of knowledge, or both so that they could write their part of the revelation. ""But when That which is Perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.” (I Corinthians 13:10)

The Phrase “That which is Perfect” is translated from a single Greek word which means: full grown, mature, complete, finished, perfect. It signifies “that which has reached it’s end.” (Zodhiates, Vine) Some teach that “That which is perfect” is “the perfect state of all things, to be ushered in by the return of Christ from heaven” (Thayer), but there is nothing in the context of the passage to indicates this interpretation.

The context (I Corinthians 12, 13, 14) is clearly speaking of spiritual gifts. In our passage (I Corinthians 13:8-13) Paul is contrasting the permanence of love (charity) (note verses 8 & 13) with the impermanence of the gifts of tongues knowledge, and prophecy (note verses 8, 9, 10).

Love is one of the fruits of the Spirit whereas tongues, prophecy and the word of knowledge are gifts of the Spirit.

The fruit of the Spirit is permanent, but the gifts are temporary.

Furthermore, the Word of God itself answers our question as to what “That which is Perfect” is where it says, “... [R]eceive with meekness the engrafted Word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the Word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of lthe Word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: for he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into The Perfect Law of Liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.” (James 1:21-25)

The Greek word translated “perfect” here in James 1:25 is the same word as. in I Corinthians 13:10. “That which is Perfect” is “The Perfect Law of Liberty,” the Word of God. In Jude 3 the Bible is also called "the Faith." There it says, “... the Faith which was once delivered unto the saints.” (Jude 3) The Greek word translated “once” here means “of perpetual validity, not requiring repetition (cf. Hebrews 9:27, 28; I Peter 3:18).” (Vine)

That which is Perfect, The Perfect Law of Liberty, is the "once delivered" Faith. The Bible is complete, finished, perfect, it does not need anything to be added to it, and is of perpetual validity. Therefore, sign gifts, of which tongues was one, which were given to confirm the Word (Mark 16:20) are no longer required, and the revelation gifts, which were in part, have been done away with because the Bible is now complete (I Corinthians 13:8-10).


- John Henry, New Testament Tongues Versus The Modern Tongues Movement, 1997

 

[presidente]

4. To authenticate Apostolic authority. Tongues was one of the five “signs of an apostle” (II Corinthians 12:12). Every recorded instance of tongues was either preformed by, or witnessed by an apostle, and there are only three cases recorded (Acts 2:1-4, 10:45-46, 19:1-7).

I just notice the assumptions and human reasoning that underlie this. The Bible does not call tongues one of the five 'signs of an apostle.' The idea that God can only do things the way we imagine based on an argument we string together by looking at certain texts is weak, too. Doctrinally, what we know about 'divers tongues' is that they are given as the Spirit wills, and they were apparently among the gifts the predominantly Gentile church, which Paul mentioned after pointing out his readers used to be idolators. I Corinthians 12 doesn't fit with where this argument appears to be going.

After the Lord Jesus Christ’s resurrection he said, “these signs shall follow them that believe…” (Mark 16:17). In this verse “[t]he verb ‘believe’ in the Greek is in the aorist tense…which refers to those who did believe, not those who would believe at that time or in the future.” (Spiros Zodhiates) In this verse the Lord is speaking to “the eleven” apostles (Mark 16:14) who should have already believed.

I got this quote off the Baptist Board. I don't think the man is a continualist, but he didn't agree with the argument,

The verb here for believe is "pisteusasi". This is a participle in the aorist tense. The literal translation would be something like, "...shall follow them having believed". The "having believed" is the participle - it's not really a verb but an adjective modifying THEM.

As for the time significance. This really comes from the context and not as much from the grammar/syntax. Jesus is saying to go out and preach the Gospel. These signs will follow His group of believers (those who have believed)

I also have an acquaintance I have known online for a couple of decades who is not a retired Classics (Greek and Latin) professor, a chair at a university. He disagrees about that aorist and relies on usage, rather than the silly non-rules about Greek grammar. He said comparing similar passages in the synoptics you can see how the aorist is used in comparison to other grammatical forms and the results can be surprising. I haven't got any quotes yet because he is going to hopefully do a detailed analysis in a couple of days.


There were five signs that followed the believing apostles. They were: 1) they cast out devils (Acts 5:16, 16:16-18, 19:11-12), 2) they spake with new tongues (Acts 2:3-4), 3) they took up serpents (Acts 28:1-6), 4) they could not be hurt by drinking poison (tradition says that an attempt to poison John failed), 5) they laid hands on the sick and they recovered (Acts 3:1-11, 5:12-16, 14:8-11, 28:8-9). These, to be sure, were “the signs of an apostle” (II Corinthians 12:12; Mark 16:17-18). “And [the apostles] went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the Word with signs following.” (Mark 16:20) The Lord confirmed the authority of the apostles and their companions to write the inspired written Word of God with these five signs. It is likely that some of the apostles’ associates, like Mark, Luke, Barnabas, Philip, and others, also displayed some of the sign gifts which authenticated their temporary revelation gifts.

......................

1. The Sign Gifts (Mark 16:17-18): These served two purposes: 1) they got peoples attention so that they could hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ and have an opportunity to be saved, and 2) they served to authenticate the apostle or prophet’s authority and message: “[The apostles] went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with [them], and confirming the Word with signs following. Amen.” (Mark 16:20) "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?" (Hebrews 2:3-4; cf. Acts 1:21-26) When the Word of God was completed "by them that heard [Christ]," both the sign gifts and the office of an apostle of Jesus Christ were abolished. "... [W]hether there be tongues, they shall cease ..." (See Appendix)

2. The Revelation Gifts (Romans 12:6; I Corinthians 12:8, 10): Revelation gifts served one purposes: they dispensed spiritual knowledge and prophecy until the Word of God was completed by the apostles and prophets. Knowledge of God, creation, Heaven, Hell, salvation, etc., and the prophetic predictions of the future rapture, tribulation, millennium, judgement, eternity, etc. could never have been known except God revealed these truths through the revelation gifts which He used in writing His Holy Word. God “put away” the revelation gifts of "the Word of knowledge" (I Corinthians 12:8), "prophecy" (I Corinthians 12:10), and tongues when He completed His Bible (The words "put away” in I Corinthians 13:11 comes from the same Greek word which is translated “shall fail,” “shall vanish away,” and “shall be done away” in I Corinthians 13:8, 10). Now that we have "that which is Perfect," the complete and infallible Word of God, the Revelation Gifts are no longer needed. (See Appendix)


- John Henry - New Testament Tongues Versus The Modern Tongues Movement, 1997[/QUOTE]

 

[presidente]

Stuff going on in real life distracted me on that last post, and it has a lot of stuff on the end not quoted. It's been too long to edit. This is what I wanted to post.

Originally Posted by "zone, maybe quoting someone"

4. To authenticate Apostolic authority. Tongues was one of the five “signs of an apostle” (II Corinthians 12:12). Every recorded instance of tongues was either preformed by, or witnessed by an apostle, and there are only three cases recorded (Acts 2:1-4, 10:45-46, 19:1-7).
I just notice the assumptions and human reasoning that underlie this. The Bible does not call tongues one of the five 'signs of an apostle.' The idea that God can only do things the way we imagine based on an argument we string together by looking at certain texts is weak, too. Doctrinally, what we know about 'divers tongues' is that they are given as the Spirit wills, and they were apparently among the gifts the predominantly Gentile church, which Paul mentioned after pointing out his readers used to be idolators. I Corinthians 12 doesn't fit with where this argument appears to be going.

After the Lord Jesus Christ’s resurrection he said, “these signs shall follow them that believe…” (Mark 16:17). In this verse “[t]he verb ‘believe’ in the Greek is in the aorist tense…which refers to those who did believe, not those who would believe at that time or in the future.” (Spiros Zodhiates) In this verse the Lord is speaking to “the eleven” apostles (Mark 16:14) who should have already believed.


I got this quote off the Baptist Board. I don't think the man is a continualist, but he didn't agree with the argument,
The verb here for believe is "pisteusasi". This is a participle in the aorist tense. The literal translation would be something like, "...shall follow them having believed". The "having believed" is the participle - it's not really a verb but an adjective modifying THEM.

As for the time significance. This really comes from the context and not as much from the grammar/syntax. Jesus is saying to go out and preach the Gospel. These signs will follow His group of believers (those who have believed)


I also have an acquaintance I have known online for a couple of decades who is not a retired Classics (Greek and Latin) professor, a chair at a university. He disagrees about that aorist and relies on usage, rather than the silly non-rules about Greek grammar. He said comparing similar passages in the synoptics you can see how the aorist is used in comparison to other grammatical forms and the results can be surprising. I haven't got any quotes yet because he is going to hopefully do a detailed analysis in a couple of days.

 

[presidente]

The context (I Corinthians 12, 13, 14) is clearly speaking of spiritual gifts. In our passage (I Corinthians 13:8-13) Paul is contrasting the permanence of love (charity) (note verses 8 & 13) with the impermanence of the gifts of tongues knowledge, and prophecy (note verses 8, 9, 10).

Knowledge in part will be done away. Because Paul says that know he knows in part, but then he shall know as he is known. Knowledge is not done away with. Imperfect knowledge is done away with. So why would prophecy be done away with?

Furthermore, the Word of God itself answers our question as to what “That which is Perfect” is where it says, “... [R]eceive with meekness the engrafted Word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the Word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of lthe Word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: for he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into The Perfect Law of Liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.” (James 1:21-25)

The Greek word translated “perfect” here in James 1:25 is the same word as. in I Corinthians 13:10. “That which is Perfect” is “The Perfect Law of Liberty,” the Word of God.

This is an excellent argument against the cessationist position, because the 'perfect law of liberty' was already perfect when James wrote those words and did not need to wait until John Revelation to be perfect. So the perfection that Paul spoke of must have been something other than the perfect law of liberty. That was already perfect. It was not incomplete when Paul wrote I Corinthians. He must have been talking about something else.

In Jude 3 the Bible is also called "the Faith." There it says, “... the Faith which was once delivered unto the saints.” (Jude 3) The Greek word translated “once” here means “of perpetual validity, not requiring repetition (cf. Hebrews 9:27, 28; I Peter 3:18).” (Vine)

This was written, also, before the canon was complete, so it is not argument for an incomplete canon.

Notice cessationism is not a part of the faith once delivered to the saints. The teaching of scripture on spiritual gifts is.

Just notice the elaborate lengths people go to to argue for this idea. A lot of elaborate reasoning to contradict direct commands of scripture. Long arguments do not justify disobedience.

 

[Stephen63]

1 Corinthians 13:12 (Interlinear) [SUP]12 [/SUP]βλέπομεν blepomen VIPA--1P 2WE SEE βλέπω γὰρ gar CS 1FOR γάρ ἄρτι arti AB STILL ἄρτι δι ᾿ di’ PG THROUGH διά ἐσόπτρου esoptrou N-GN-S A MIRROR ἔσοπτρον ἐν en PD INDISTINCTLY, ἐν αἰνίγματι, ainigmati N-DN-S « αἴνιγμα τότε tote AB 2THEN τότε δὲ de CH 1BUT δέ πρόσωπον prosōpon N-AN-S/N-NN-S FACE πρόσωπον πρὸς pros PA TO πρός πρόσωπον· prosōpon N-AN-S FACE; πρόσωπον ἄρτι arti AB YET ἄρτι γινώσκω ginōskō VIPA--1S I KNOW γινώσκω ἐκ ek PG IN PART, ἐκ μέρους, merous N-GN-S « μέρος τότε tote AB 2THEN τότε δὲ de CH 1BUT δέ ἐπιγνώσομαι epignōsomai VIFD--1S I WILL FULLY KNOW ἐπιγινώσκω καθὼς kathōs CS EVEN AS καθώς καὶ kai AB ALSO καί ἐπεγνώσθην. epegnōsthēn VIAP--1S I WAS FULLY KNOWN, ἐπιγινώσκω

AS I WAS FULLY KNOWN- speaks about how God fully knows us. This means I WILL FULLY KNOW is speaking of fully knowing everything in the presence of the Lord, because no one fully knows now. No one does. Not till then, when we see Jesus FACE TO FACE.

 

[presidente]

well, actually, it says, if you see it as cessationists do - that the language gifts were revelatory - that the gifted one, if there was no interpreter present.....should STILL speak to God silently (prayer; communion; receiving the revealed knowledge), because even though he could not translate the language - he KNEW what the message was....via the Spirit.

See it as cessationists do? I don't think this is a unilateral cessationist position. You could probably find one who thinks that way, but my guess is that this may be hard for you to find. Cessationist's Bibles also have that verse where Paul says if he prays in tongues, his spirit prays, but his understanding is unfruitful.

What you say doesn't make sense either. If you know what something is saying, unless you have something medically wrong with you or poorly developed abilities, you can tell others. I can hear something in one language I know, and say what it means in English. If I understand it I can share it.

If you want to claim Chrysostom as a cessationist when it comes to tongues, then I believe he said something along the lines of the speaker not understanding it if I recall correctly.

 

[zone]

Stuff going on in real life distracted me on that last post, and it has a lot of stuff on the end not quoted. It's been too long to edit. This is what I wanted to post.

Originally Posted by "zone, maybe quoting someone"

ha?
i gave you the source.

I got this quote off the Baptist Board. I don't think the man is a continualist, but he didn't agree with the argument,
The verb here for believe is "pisteusasi". This is a participle in the aorist tense. The literal translation would be something like, "...shall follow them having believed". The "having believed" is the participle - it's not really a verb but an adjective modifying THEM.

okay?

As for the time significance. This really comes from the context and not as much from the grammar/syntax. Jesus is saying to go out and preach the Gospel. These signs will follow His group of believers (those who have believed)

context does determine it.

who did He send out?

YOU WEREN'T STANDING THERE WITH HIM.

EVER MET JESUS? DID HE APPEAR TO YOU?
DID HE FIND YOU FISHING AND CALL YOU?

were you there When He was Crucified? did you see Him resurrected?

no - so knock it off because this isn't even cute or funny. it's HERESY.

yes, we carry on The Great Commission - but i don't care how you twist and spin this thing - you don't have the power from on high the Apostles had, and you do not have their authority.

you're not raising anyone from the dead AS A SIGN of your (non apostolic) non-authority.

your tongues are babbling, not gentile languages for a SIGN and for the supernatural dissemination of the gospel launching out IMMEDIATELY from Jerusalem without A BIBLE - since God was 'downloading' - REVEALING the DOCTRINE IN REAL TIME.

anybody claiming direct ongoing REVELATION today is an heretic. period.

prove this wrong! where's your inspired epistles?

I also have an acquaintance I have known online for a couple of decades who is not a retired Classics (Greek and Latin) professor, a chair at a university. He disagrees about that aorist and relies on usage, rather than the silly non-rules about Greek grammar. He said comparing similar passages in the synoptics you can see how the aorist is used in comparison to other grammatical forms and the results can be surprising. I haven't got any quotes yet because he is going to hopefully do a detailed analysis in a couple of days.

ok.
make sure you tell him the reason you want it is to claim you're a prophet or know prophets who are receiving revelation from God equal to the disciples and the 12.
and that you have the supernatural gift of languages poured out at Pentecost.