Is Jesus God?

[phil36]

Hi Phil

You wrote:

if they believe that Jesus was just the son of God and not God himself then they are not Christian,

I simply wrote I have never heard that stated from the pulpit. I know many, many Christians who have spent their livers in church, and being part of ministry teams within the church who solely see Christ as the Son of God. That is a fact. For they have never been told from the pulpit what you have written in the above emboldened. So it has never been discussed. Which leads to an obvious point.
Either you are wrong, or, most ministers refuse to plainly state the truth you have written from the pulpit, which do you believe is true?

Hi Kenneth,

I think you are arguing from a false dichotomy.

The main point to remember is that I was not giving a sermon. My statement is condensed.. and that is Jesus is the son of God and He is also God. If you do not believe who Jesus is and what He says about himself along with what the Holy Spirit inspired to be written about him, then you are not believing the Biblical Jesus. Now that I think you understand.

I am sure you have heard your ministry team refer to Jesus as God and as the son? If not move church!

But, you have a problem.. and that problem is what I said about those who do not believe in the biblical Jesus? You have a problem with that. I would ask you to ask your ministry team, does a person need to believe who Jesus said he was to be a Christian, if they say no...Move Church!

If you have not heard from the pulpit that you need to believe in who Jesus is, if you have never heard from the pulpit that Jesus is the Son of God, and if you have not heard from the pulpit that Jesus is God.. then Move church!

you may not have heard it all in one sermon..have you ever written a sermon? anyhow lets get to the real problem you have with my statement. I still stand by what I said, and that is those who do not believe that Jesus is both the son of God and is God.. are not Christian (I do understand that those young in faith may be confused over this, but that is a different issue..here YOU and the rest of your church are there to nurture and teach..are you doing that?)

The simple fact is, if you deny who Jesus is, you are not Christian! But God can still call those he wants to. Amen

 

[kenneth53]

Hi Kenneth,

I think you are arguing from a false dichotomy.

The main point to remember is that I was not giving a sermon. My statement is condensed.. and that is Jesus is the son of God and He is also God. If you do not believe who Jesus is and what He says about himself along with what the Holy Spirit inspired to be written about him, then you are not believing the Biblical Jesus. Now that I think you understand.

I am sure you have heard your ministry team refer to Jesus as God and as the son? If not move church!

But, you have a problem.. and that problem is what I said about those who do not believe in the biblical Jesus? You have a problem with that. I would ask you to ask your ministry team, does a person need to believe who Jesus said he was to be a Christian, if they say no...Move Church!

If you have not heard from the pulpit that you need to believe in who Jesus is, if you have never heard from the pulpit that Jesus is the Son of God, and if you have not heard from the pulpit that Jesus is God.. then Move church!

you may not have heard it all in one sermon..have you ever written a sermon? anyhow lets get to the real problem you have with my statement. I still stand by what I said, and that is those who do not believe that Jesus is both the son of God and is God.. are not Christian (I do understand that those young in faith may be confused over this, but that is a different issue..here YOU and the rest of your church are there to nurture and teach..are you doing that?)

The simple fact is, if you deny who Jesus is, you are not Christian! But God can still call those he wants to. Amen

As twice you have been reluctant to respond to my very simple point I will leave it there

 

[phil36]

Your simple point was Am I right as against your ministry team.. I answered above.

My question to you why are the not talking about Jesus and who he says He IS?

I'll make my answer easier:

I cannot talk about your ministry team I can only take your word for that, But if they believe that someone who denies who Jesus is, is Christian the they are WRONG.. but they go not have to condense it into one sentence the way I did. Sometimes the truth annoys people.

The Bible is correct sir!

 

[kenneth53]

Your simple point was Am I right as against your ministry team.. I answered above.

My question to you why are the not talking about Jesus and who he says He IS?

I'll make my answer easier:

I cannot talk about your ministry team I can only take your word for that, But if they believe that someone who denies who Jesus is, is Christian the they are WRONG.. but they go not have to condense it into one sentence the way I did. Sometimes the truth annoys people.

The Bible is correct sir!

Well perhaps you are right and I have been to the wrong churches. Could you point me to a church in the UK where the minister states plainly from the pulpit what you wrote on this website

'If you believe Jesus is the Son of God but not God Himself you cannot be a Christian'

Thanks

 

[phil36]

Hi Kenneth I have already stated that I was not making a sermon.. I made one very truthful statement.. please go back and read post #221. It is a condenced statement.

For some reason you do not like the statement..which part don't you like? do you believe yo can deny Jesus is God and be a Christian.

 

[kenneth53]

Hi Kenneth I have already stated that I was not making a sermon.. I made one very truthful statement.. please go back and read post #221. It is a condenced statement.

For some reason you do not like the statement..which part don't you like? do you believe yo can deny Jesus is God and be a Christian.

I think I understand. You don't believe it's necessary for a minister to plainly state from the pulpit correct belief(and what is not acceptable belief) as to who Jesus is to inherit eternal life. I must say I disagree with you

 

[phil36]

Most certainly a minister must plainly teach the truth, that is what He is commanded to do!

A minister does not have to preach the same thing time in time out.

And he must correct false teachings and we can see this pattern plainly in scripture!!

Do you think that someone can deny Jesus is God and be a Christian (baring in mind what I have already said)?

 

[kenneth53]

Most certainly a minister must plainly teach the truth, that is what He is commanded to do!

A minister does not have to preach the same thing time in time out.

And he must correct false teachings and we can see this pattern plainly in scripture!!

Do you think that someone can deny Jesus is God and be a Christian (baring in mind what I have already said)?

I think you are in a hopeless mess. You know vas well as I do Trinitarian ministers in the UK won't stand up in their pulpits and plainly state what you have on this website, you also have to agree salvational belief must be plainly preached(and what is not acceptable belief), so you are frantically trying to avoid answering the question.
I repeat, You're in a hopeless mess

 

[phil36]

Hi Kenneth,

That's very kind of you.

I know for certain that any Trinitarian bible agreeing minister would agree with my statement..they may not say in the same way but they would agree.

So I have answered your questions you have not answered mine.

If a prodessing Christian denies Jesus is not God, is he a Christian..?

 

[kenneth53]

Hi Kenneth,

That's very kind of you.

I know for certain that any Trinitarian bible agreeing minister would agree with my statement..they may not say in the same way but they would agree.

So I have answered your questions you have not answered mine.

If a prodessing Christian denies Jesus is not God, is he a Christian..?

You have not responded to my point at all, as well you know. Let me spell it out even clearer
I would very much doubt any Trinitarian minister in the UK would stand in their pulpit and plainly state what you have done on this website. And bearing in mind to you it is salvational belief, if you are right they are not doing their job properly
Of course you can't respond to it so you just beat around the houses.

 

[phil36]

Hi Kenneth,

I think it is plain for all to see that I have answered you.

And Yes I agree with you, what a mess I am, infact I will go further, I was a wretched wreck but God I his mercy chose to save me.. and I am a mess being mopped up, based upon the work of Jesus Christ, who IS God.

I take it you believe you can deny Jesus is God and still be a Christian (baring in mind what I have already said)

You did not like my statement, which part?

 

[kenneth53]

Hi Kenneth,

I think it is plain for all to see that I have answered you.

And Yes I agree with you, what a mess I am, infact I will go further, I was a wretched wreck but God I his mercy chose to save me.. and I am a mess being mopped up, based upon the work of Jesus Christ, who IS God.

I take it you believe you can deny Jesus is God and still be a Christian (baring in mind what I have already said)

You did not like my statement, which part?

You may take what you want Phil, I have not given you my opinion on this subject. The fact is Trinitarian ministers in the UK won't preach plainly from the pulpit, what to you eternal life hinges on believing(and what is unacceptable belief)

So you obviously can't address that so all we get is evasion.

Obviously doctrine isn't that important to you outside of this website, your silence, and refusal to plainly address the question is deafening

 

[kenisyes]

Obviously context defines the use of the word. It is quite obvious that the Jews understood full well how the word was to be understood in the confines of the Psalms 82 text. They did not equate the use of Elohim in connection to those judges as being in any way gods in the intrinsic sense. Yet when Elohim is used in the last verse, there is no question as to who is being revered to here. "Rise up, O God, judge the earth."

I certainly agree. And you and I have the same context. God (and Jesus) is God and we are not. But that context comes from experience, not from the text itself. Try the verse the other way: "Rise up, ye judges, for you are heirs to the nations". If we remove our knowledge of who God is, it works that way too.

 

[oldhermit]

I certainly agree. And you and I have the same context. God (and Jesus) is God and we are not. But that context comes from experience, not from the text itself. Try the verse the other way: "Rise up, ye judges, for you are heirs to the nations". If we remove our knowledge of who God is, it works that way too.

Yes, I agree.

 

[kenisyes]

Yes, I agree.

So does that mean we need another solution, or do we need to conclude that such absolute proof requires both Scripture and experience?

 

[oldhermit]

So does that mean we need another solution, or do we need to conclude that such absolute proof requires both Scripture and experience?

Experience is proof of nothing. Experience NEVER explains scripture because is rooted in the mind of God, not experience. Scripture explains experience.

 

[Quickfire]

Hi Kenneth,

I think you are arguing from a false dichotomy.

The main point to remember is that I was not giving a sermon. My statement is condensed.. and that is Jesus is the son of God and He is also God. If you do not believe who Jesus is and what He says about himself along with what the Holy Spirit inspired to be written about him, then you are not believing the Biblical Jesus. Now that I think you understand.

I am sure you have heard your ministry team refer to Jesus as God and as the son? If not move church!

But, you have a problem.. and that problem is what I said about those who do not believe in the biblical Jesus? You have a problem with that. I would ask you to ask your ministry team, does a person need to believe who Jesus said he was to be a Christian, if they say no...Move Church!

If you have not heard from the pulpit that you need to believe in who Jesus is, if you have never heard from the pulpit that Jesus is the Son of God, and if you have not heard from the pulpit that Jesus is God.. then Move church!

you may not have heard it all in one sermon..have you ever written a sermon? anyhow lets get to the real problem you have with my statement. I still stand by what I said, and that is those who do not believe that Jesus is both the son of God and is God.. are not Christian (I do understand that those young in faith may be confused over this, but that is a different issue..here YOU and the rest of your church are there to nurture and teach..are you doing that?)

The simple fact is, if you deny who Jesus is, you are not Christian! But God can still call those he wants to. Amen

I have a problem with your statement That i hope you can clear up. your confessing something that only people that are guided by the holy spirit can say . My 72 year old wife mother in law confessed that she had never herd that jesus is god until just the other day and she had read the bible all her life, now you tell me is she not a christian too, she does however believe in the word

her church is church of England she has always believed if your church of england your a christian,

Mark 16:16

English Standard Version (ESV)

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Please tell me where it says here whoever does not confess Jesus is god is not a christian,

Jesus is god is something you learn about later, like my mother in law.

Can you answer me now who ever does not confess this is not a christian,, think be for answer please.

 

[Bowman]

I have a problem with your statement That i hope you can clear up. your confessing something that only people that are guided by the holy spirit can say . My 72 year old wife mother in law confessed that she had never herd that jesus is god until just the other day and she had read the bible all her life, now you tell me is she not a christian too, she does however believe in the word

her church is church of England she has always believed if your church of england your a christian,

Mark 16:16

English Standard Version (ESV)

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Please tell me where it says here whoever does not confess Jesus is god is not a christian,

Jesus is god is something you learn about later, like my mother in law.

Can you answer me now who ever does not confess this is not a christian,, think be for answer please.

Ignorance of the Word takes on many forms. It is an absolute necessity that one believes in the Triune God and that Jesus is God, in order to inherit eternal life.

The fact that your mother in law missed the boat for so long is not surprising, as many people calling themselves Bible believers have mis-read the same scriptures that clearly reveal the Triune God.

How many millions of Jews mis-interpreted the same OT that true Christians can clearly see as speaking about God the Son?

How many billions of muslims have missed the boat, as well?

Don't be surprised at this....just be happy that she is now on the right path!

 

[kenisyes]

Experience is proof of nothing. Experience NEVER explains scripture because is rooted in the mind of God, not experience. Scripture explains experience.

This is a tough hair to split. We have agreed, have we not, that without the context of being a believer, just based on the words, we could conclude that we are God? If so, we must insist that context of life experience be included. I agree experience is proof of nothing. But it appears to be essential to establish context for at least this one thing.

The OP asks for a proof from the Gospels that Jesus is God. We have been able to furnish a proof that Jesus was God at creation, but found it necessary to go to other parts of the NT to show that He was God on the earth, and is God today. Maybe a more appropriate answer is that the gospels bring us to Jesus as Lord and Savior, who then gives us the Holy Spirit, who then teaches us all things (all of this is in the gospels). Then we know from experience that the Holy Spirit causes us to understand life correctly, and that is how we know Jesus our Lord and savior, is God? So what we mean by "proof" is not the proof of argument in logic, but the "proof" of life lived following Jesus?

If that is correct, then language becomes irrelevant. People who think only in Hebrew will, if they are led to Jesus, still receive the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy SPirit), and hence will soon be aware that Jesus is God, together with the Father, regardless what they call Him.

 

[oldhermit]

=kenisyes;1159586]This is a tough hair to split. We have agreed, have we not, that without the context of being a believer, just based on the words, we could conclude that we are God?

I cannot see how even a non believer could read just the words of Ps. 82 and think that the language implies that we are all God. The context is very clear to anyone that the use of Elohim was linked only to those who held magisterial offices and not to just anyone. Thus, contextually, Elohim is linked to and limited to function, not an ontological state.

If so, we must insist that context of life experience be included.

Why?

I agree experience is proof of nothing. But it appears to be essential to establish context for at least this one thing.

And what is the "one thing"?

The OP asks for a proof from the Gospels that Jesus is God. We have been able to furnish a proof that Jesus was God at creation, but found it necessary to go to other parts of the NT to show that He was God on the earth, and is God today. Maybe a more appropriate answer is that the gospels bring us to Jesus as Lord and Savior, who then gives us the Holy Spirit,

I agree

who then teaches us all things (all of this is in the gospels).

We may disagree on the application of this statement by Jesus.

Then we know from experience that the Holy Spirit causes us to understand life correctly,

Explain how you think he does this.

and that is how we know Jesus our Lord and savior, is God?

NO! We only know Jesus is Lord, Savior, and God because we have a string of revealed words constructed into the form of scripture that tells us these things. This is the only way we understand ANYTHING about Jesus. Now, having said that, we also know that the Holy Spirit is the source of the revealed construct of scripture. So in that sense only can we say that the Holy Spirit teaches us about Jesus.

So what we mean by "proof" is not the proof of argument in logic, but the "proof" of life lived following Jesus?

You may need to explain what exactly you mean by this.

If that is correct, then language becomes irrelevant. People who think only in Hebrew will, if they are led to Jesus, still receive the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy SPirit), and hence will soon be aware that Jesus is God, together with the Father, regardless what they call Him.

Your are separating language as a tool of communication and instruction from the Holy Spirit. What you are suggesting is really nothing more than existentialism.

Perhaps we need to examine the part that language plays and just how the human receives and processes information.