Is Jesus God?

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Q

Quickfire

Guest
Ignorance of the Word takes on many forms. It is an absolute necessity that one believes in the Triune God and that Jesus is God, in order to inherit eternal life.

The fact that your mother in law missed the boat for so long is not surprising, as many people calling themselves Bible believers have mis-read the same scriptures that clearly reveal the Triune God.

How many millions of Jews mis-interpreted the same OT that true Christians can clearly see as speaking about God the Son?

How many billions of muslims have missed the boat, as well?

Don't be surprised at this....just be happy that she is now on the right path!
OK well let me ask you and phil who as liked this post which was a response to my question to phil,

since you are now involved can you and phil answer this question if you and phil went down to your local shop one day and your local shopkeeper said i want to learn about god and i want to become a christian, and then he said i have a a hard time understanding Jesus is God would you both be helping him by saying unless you confess Jesus is god your going to hell,,
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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It depends how much time I had..

But quickly, I would say what Jesus has done for him.. why he needs to believe in Jesus.. what are the consequences of his life choices.. and ask him to earnestly seek the Lord. And offer to pray with him. I would not harass the man into an emotional easy believerism.

If he wanted to know more then I would take him through scripture.. just like that was done on the Emmaus road.

I am almost sure that at some point the guy would want to know WHO Jesus is and why have faith in him, don't you think?
 
Q

Quickfire

Guest
exactly and that is what im saying, i bet no one here would say to someone face to face on the street your not a christian,

Why say it here i dont understand this
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
1. I cannot see how even a non believer could read just the words of Ps. 82 and think that the language implies that we are all God. The context is very clear to anyone that the use of Elohim was linked only to those who held magisterial offices and not to just anyone. Thus, contextually, Elohim is linked to and limited to function, not an ontological state.

2. Why?

3. And what is the "one thing"?

I agree

4. We may disagree on the application of this statement by Jesus.

5. Explain how you think he does this.

6. NO! We only know Jesus is Lord, Savior, and God because we have a string of revealed words constructed into the form of scripture that tells us these things. This is the only way we understand ANYTHING about Jesus. Now, having said that, we also know that the Holy Spirit is the source of the revealed construct of scripture. So in that sense only can we say that the Holy Spirit teaches us about Jesus.

7. You may need to explain what exactly you mean by this.

8. Your are separating language as a tool of communication and instruction from the Holy Spirit. What you are suggesting is really nothing more than existentialism.

Perhaps we need to examine the part that language plays and just how the human receives and processes information.
1. I agree, not just from Ps. 82. But many new agers believe they are God, and could use this as a proof text.
2. Because those New Agers would misinterpret it based on the lack of the life-experience following Jesus I have had.
3. The interpetation of this psalm. Of course, I can see where if you have not experienced the New Ager's thinking, your beliefs about 2 and 3 would be opposite mine.
4. We apparently do, which is why we have 8 points of response. All seem to stem from that.
5. Because that's what happened to me. In the early church, fundamental teaching focussed on the "two ways". Reworded into our terminology, being saved and born again is almost like being transferred to another dimension (it is being tranferred to another Kingdom). In the new life, things work differently. Part of the change is you perceive daily life differently. Good things are no longer luck, they are blessings for example.
6. You mean you have reached your age, without haveing personally experienced the change wrought by Jesus? If that is true, it is quite sad. But I can understand why you say everything else you do, if that is so.
7. That's what I tried to say in 5 and 6.
8. I never really understood human philosophy very well. But existentialism is something a lot of unsaved people do, so looking at how they process things cannot hurt.

Do you agree with the idea that God must work around flaws in human language and understanding to express Himself in Scripture? If so, then there is a difference. I agree that examining the role of language in learning is a good direction to go to answer the objections I am raising.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,345
2,157
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If you do not believe Jesus is God, then your not a Christian. Those who are not Christian are not Christian and most wil tell you this themselves..you don't have to tell them.. but the do need to hear the Gospel truth.

If someone is proclaiming to be a Christian and yet they deny Jesus is God then it is very simple they are not a true Christian.. That's totally different from a non Christian agreeing that they are not a Christian!
 
Q

Quickfire

Guest
would you tell someone to there face that
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,345
2,157
113
I certainly would. And its not about me being right and looking good..its about that persons very soul.. it would be less kind to tickle their ears with nonsense.


and as we can see on here these same people are very vocal at trying to teach this false gospel, that is even more worrying especially for those young in faith (not in age).

Standing up for truth is never easy and it doesn't tickle ears...
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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=kenisyes;1159892] I agree, not just from Ps. 82. But many new agers believe they are God, and could use this as a proof text.
The reason they do this is an attempt at elevating self, no matter what else they may claim.

Because those New Agers would misinterpret it based on the lack of the life-experience following Jesus I have had.
They do not "misinterpret" it based on life experience, they abuse it as part of a personal agenda in elevating the self.

The interpetation of this psalm. Of course, I can see where if you have not experienced the New Ager's thinking, your beliefs about 2 and 3 would be opposite mine.
Scripture is NEVER to be subjected to interpretation by human experience. This elevates the experience above the text and makes the text contingent upon individual experience. Perhaps we need to focus on this since this seems to be a new idea to you.

We apparently do, which is why we have 8 points of response. All seem to stem from that.
Then perhaps we can discuss this at some other time.

Because that's what happened to me. In the early church, fundamental teaching focussed on the "two ways". Reworded into our terminology, being saved and born again is almost like being transferred to another dimension (it is being tranferred to another Kingdom). In the new life, things work differently. Part of the change is you perceive daily life differently. Good things are no longer luck, they are blessings for example.
I agree. The question is, where does this perception come from?

You mean you have reached your age, without haveing personally experienced the change wrought by Jesus? If that is true, it is quite sad. But I can understand why you say everything else you do, if that is so.
What exactly do you mean when you use the word "change"?

Do you agree with the idea that God must work around flaws in human language and understanding to express Himself in Scripture?
Yes. God does this a lot in scripture.
 
Q

Quickfire

Guest
I certainly would. And its not about me being right and looking good..its about that persons very soul.. it would be less kind to tickle their ears with nonsense.


and as we can see on here these same people are very vocal at trying to teach this false gospel, that is even more worrying especially for those young in faith (not in age).

Standing up for truth is never easy and it doesn't tickle ears...
ok well you have your ways i have mine
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,144
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=kenisyes;1159892]
The interpretation of this psalm. Of course, I can see where if you have not experienced the New Ager's thinking, your beliefs about 2 and 3 would be opposite mine.

Let me just take this time to try to explain the three rules of punctuated logic and what scripture has to say about these three rules.

Rule one is the non commutation rule. Something that is non-commutative is directionally confined or fixed. This rule, as it applies to punctuated logic, describes the directional flow that logic takes from the invisible to the visible. Revelation moves uni-directionally. It begins in the mind of God and terminates in the world of man. Commutative interpretation of revelation on the other hand, operates according to human intelligence. Man's appraisal of material circumstances gives definition to what human experience has to say about the Word of God. We attempt to create a synthesis between what we know of our natural experiences and what the scripture says about these things. Frankly, this will never do. The problem is that our experiences do not tell us the truth about divine revelation. If we are to have a true understanding of reality, we must never start with anything in the temporal dimension whether it is the self, human intelligence, or situations. Because of the limitations of human intelligence, the threshold of the eternal cannot be breeched from the temporal side. Consequently, we must rely upon God to reach beyond the eternal horizon to project His will onto our consciousness. This he does through the revelation of scripture. Since we cannot know the mind of God by empirical observation of anything in the material world, we must seek exposure to the intelligence of God from beyond the eternal threshold. We can only know the thoughts of God when they are made known to us by God Himself. This He does through a system of representations in the form of a revealed grammar - the Bible.

In order for the revelation of God to impact the mind of man, it must be first be converted into a set of symbols on the temporal side. This is given form in at least two ways to communicate the will of God to the human mind. The linguistic form of eternal logic is scripture. The anthropomorphic form of eternal logic is Jesus in the flesh. Since the nature of scripture is non-commutative upon the human mind, we must start with the grammatical structure of the revelation if we are to have a true picture of reality. This means that we must bring the intelligence of man into a subordinate position to the will of God. Human conformity to this non commutative logic then shapes and transforms human psychology and behavior. This produces change in the way one thinks, speaks, and behaves. The Word of God allows ud to see things in our experience in ways that we could never have otherwise seen otherwise.

Rule two is the textual phenomena rule.
The text of scripture presents itself as pan temporal phenomena. Scripture is not subject to temporal or cultural considerations. It is not confined to a specific historical or cultural frame of reference. Thus, we would say that scripture is generationally equidistant as well as equicultural. This being true, we must always allow the generalizations of the upon the human experience of all generations and cultures.

Rule three is the spanning rule. The scientific world would have us believe that reality is confined only to those things that lend themselves to empirical observation. Scripture, on the other hand, would invite us to see reality from quite a different perspective. To understand the nature of the relationship between the eternal and the temporal we must understand that reality is triadic in structure. There is the invisible and eternal side of reality represented by God, the visible side of reality represented in Jesus, and the indexical agent of the Holy Spirit who links the two parts of reality into a singularity.

What this model shows us is that reality begins in the eternal mind of God. The will of God is then imprinted onto the material reality in the person of Jesus and the Holy Spirit links the will of God to the observable, temporal side of reality and brings the causal to bear upon the visible. This brings things in the natural world into conformity with the abstract will of God. Man's part in reality will always is accidental to the will of God because God will bring about His will even without our participation or involvement. Man's only authorized position in this picture of reality is to stand in the index position and to link the eternal reality to his experiences on the material side.
 
K

kenisyes

Guest

Let me just take this time to try to explain the three rules of punctuated logic and what scripture has to say about these three rules.

Rule one is the non commutation rule. Something that is non-commutative is directionally confined or fixed. This rule, as it applies to punctuated logic, describes the directional flow that logic takes from the invisible to the visible. Revelation moves uni-directionally. It begins in the mind of God and terminates in the world of man. Commutative interpretation of revelation on the other hand, operates according to human intelligence. Man's appraisal of material circumstances gives definition to what human experience has to say about the Word of God. We attempt to create a synthesis between what we know of our natural experiences and what the scripture says about these things. Frankly, this will never do. The problem is that our experiences do not tell us the truth about divine revelation. If we are to have a true understanding of reality, we must never start with anything in the temporal dimension whether it is the self, human intelligence, or situations. Because of the limitations of human intelligence, the threshold of the eternal cannot be breeched from the temporal side. Consequently, we must rely upon God to reach beyond the eternal horizon to project His will onto our consciousness. This he does through the revelation of scripture. Since we cannot know the mind of God by empirical observation of anything in the material world, we must seek exposure to the intelligence of God from beyond the eternal threshold. We can only know the thoughts of God when they are made known to us by God Himself. This He does through a system of representations in the form of a revealed grammar - the Bible.

In order for the revelation of God to impact the mind of man, it must be first be converted into a set of symbols on the temporal side. This is given form in at least two ways to communicate the will of God to the human mind. The linguistic form of eternal logic is scripture. The anthropomorphic form of eternal logic is Jesus in the flesh. Since the nature of scripture is non-commutative upon the human mind, we must start with the grammatical structure of the revelation if we are to have a true picture of reality. This means that we must bring the intelligence of man into a subordinate position to the will of God. Human conformity to this non commutative logic then shapes and transforms human psychology and behavior. This produces change in the way one thinks, speaks, and behaves. The Word of God allows ud to see things in our experience in ways that we could never have otherwise seen otherwise.

Rule two is the textual phenomena rule.
The text of scripture presents itself as pan temporal phenomena. Scripture is not subject to temporal or cultural considerations. It is not confined to a specific historical or cultural frame of reference. Thus, we would say that scripture is generationally equidistant as well as equicultural. This being true, we must always allow the generalizations of the upon the human experience of all generations and cultures.

Rule three is the spanning rule. The scientific world would have us believe that reality is confined only to those things that lend themselves to empirical observation. Scripture, on the other hand, would invite us to see reality from quite a different perspective. To understand the nature of the relationship between the eternal and the temporal we must understand that reality is triadic in structure. There is the invisible and eternal side of reality represented by God, the visible side of reality represented in Jesus, and the indexical agent of the Holy Spirit who links the two parts of reality into a singularity.

What this model shows us is that reality begins in the eternal mind of God. The will of God is then imprinted onto the material reality in the person of Jesus and the Holy Spirit links the will of God to the observable, temporal side of reality and brings the causal to bear upon the visible. This brings things in the natural world into conformity with the abstract will of God. Man's part in reality will always is accidental to the will of God because God will bring about His will even without our participation or involvement. Man's only authorized position in this picture of reality is to stand in the index position and to link the eternal reality to his experiences on the material side.
This post includes all the comments in the last you made to me, so I will respond here.

Where did you get this theory? It is your own, right? A search brings up no hits outside the realm of mathematical logic in which I have a near doctorate.

Where have you published, and who has given you feedback? If we are going to discuss at this level, I'd like to know whether I need to respond to something that has been peer evaluated or not. The lack of internet hits suggests the model is certainly outside mainstream theology.

We have some lexical disagreements at the outset. God is love, and love is not logical. I'm sure this problem can be remedied easily enough.

For what you want, a directed lattice of vectors is a better option. That would allow us to determine if there are component parts to revelation and to determine commutivity of each part. Certainly, much revelation is top-down only. Some things are indeed commutative, as a matter of experience for many people. We need to get more specific, if we are to go this direction. If all revelation is non-commutative, the Jesus' being a man like us serves no purpose in aiding His intercession for us, for example. Revelation is interactive, otherwise there would be no personal calls into any ministry; everyone would have exactly the same call, and the choices would be determined by rules provided by Scripture. Certainly, the proposal denies the promise of "whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven"; that is interactive by its nature. More importantly, men decided what books go into Scripture, as proven by the historical record.

Your second statement that symbols are required for revelation is untrue in the general sense. Adam and Eve did not need a Bible. The statement must be modified to allow for how the contamination of sin now requires a Bible, if indeed it does.

That Scripture is not subject to cultural considerations is disagreed with by every major theologian in history. If the statement is true, Scripture translations would all be identical, and there would be no need for commentaries.

I already remarked that the triadic structure of reality is a Greek idea. By imposing the condition of 3 spanning vectors onto a directed lattice, you may be destroying the isomorphism with the revelation pattern in Scripture itself. Much more study is needed, as this idea has been barely looked at any time in history. Forcing a 3 spanning vector basis onto the lattice may in fact contradict your own three rules in some of the sub lattices.

The model is an invention of the (yours, apparently) human mind, so your statement that it shows us anything about the mind of God, is an inherent contradiction to your own insistence that revelation is non-commutative. Until the model is refined and checked against all Scripture, we cannot make such a statement.

I agree with the conclusion of the next three sentences: "The will of God is then imprinted onto the material reality in the person of Jesus and the Holy Spirit links the will of God to the observable, temporal side of reality and brings the causal to bear upon the visible. This brings things in the natural world into conformity with the abstract will of God. Man's part in reality will always is accidental to the will of God because God will bring about His will even without our participation or involvement." but not because of your argument. I do not agree with the last statement, for the reasons I have given, and many other Scriptures. Adopted sons, priests and kings, do not have such a position.

Maybe we should offer to take this discussion out of here, as it is more about hermeneutics than about the OP?

NOt that it's especially important, but it would be nice to see your resume that has produced mathematical theology at this level.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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From your comments it is quite clear you really do not understand the broad implications of my statements. The theory of Punctuated Logic was actually developed by a colleague of mine, Dr. J.M. Strawn. The explanation of the implications of the basic theory is mine. Dr. Strawn and I work very closely together in the field of Biblical Representation Research along with Dr. Lataine Scott. My resume is completely irrelevant. Suffice it to say my credentials are in order. I do not wish my statements to be evaluated on the basis if my academic credentials but upon their own merit. The only way I can think to try to get you to a level of understanding that will allow you to grasp these ideas is simply to start at the beginning. Are you interested?
 
Aug 20, 2013
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OK well let me ask you and phil who as liked this post which was a response to my question to phil,

since you are now involved can you and phil answer this question if you and phil went down to your local shop one day and your local shopkeeper said i want to learn about god and i want to become a christian, and then he said i have a a hard time understanding Jesus is God would you both be helping him by saying unless you confess Jesus is god your going to hell,,
Interesting, good wisdom
 
G

GreenNnice

Guest
I think, a lot of you think too much. Only believe . :)

All things are possible with God. THINK about that a minute :)
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
From your comments it is quite clear you really do not understand the broad implications of my statements. The theory of Punctuated Logic was actually developed by a colleague of mine, Dr. J.M. Strawn. The explanation of the implications of the basic theory is mine. Dr. Strawn and I work very closely together in the field of Biblical Representation Research along with Dr. Lataine Scott. My resume is completely irrelevant. Suffice it to say my credentials are in order. I do not wish my statements to be evaluated on the basis if my academic credentials but upon their own merit. The only way I can think to try to get you to a level of understanding that will allow you to grasp these ideas is simply to start at the beginning. Are you interested?
I have spent abut an hour at the websites of Dr. Latayne Scott. Her website does not list the doctorate as far as I have seen. She is a professional Christian writer, who has written some theology. I looked through Dr. Swihart's thesis, and the basic lessons provided at the representational research website. As with your statements, I find several points of disagreement, such as there are four levels of faith response as documented by transpersonal psychology (and also Revelation), not three. I do not trust Swihart's idea that the third part of the person is linguistic/creative, and that soul encompasses the whole person, although perhaps with further study, I can resolve the problems, such as how one accounts for the shem in the survival of the person after death in Hebrew extra-biblical works (she does not appear to be aware of the Talmudic distinction of 5 parts at all). I also do not believe that her isomorphism between the trinity and grammatical structure is reconcilable with Jayne's work on the evolution of thought. I also find it odd that she neglect's Budge's work demonstrating eight parts to Egyptian soul/spirit complex. For her stated goal of proving a three-part soul, of course, such things are not necessary. But when the work is applied, such gaps need to be filled if the isomorphism is to be laid out correctly.

The biggest problem I see though, is that you are not representing the system accurately. The work uses Scripture to impose the trinitarian system on human thought, and that is fine as far as it goes. You appear to be assuming the work correct, and attempting to correct human thought based on the system. Swihart and Strawn both go to great pains to demonstrate the truth of their isomorphism from human experience. Since this is done, as I said before, it is a contradiction for you to use the work assuming that it is a prioi true, and then try to use the work to prove the priority of Scripture over experience. The work itself has been proved by experience, so that makes it a circular argument. It's the same question as, "how can you say the Bible tells the revelation of God in a way superior to the thoughts of men, if men determined what books went in the Bible?" Experience with other books that had been written about God is what led men to the selection of these books as superior (the traiditonal term is inspired), so the selection itself of the representation of revelation by written word was interactive.

It concerns me that I have not been able to bring up any links to either Strawn (except the website) or to Swihart. It is most unusual for doctorates in every field not to have a webpage provided by the college at which they teach. I do not have a doctorate, and I am retired except for online work, but a search of my name (once limited to the cities listed on my website) easily brings up proofs of the music and mathematics I have taught, my copyright holdings, etc.
 
Nov 19, 2012
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OK well let me ask you and phil who as liked this post which was a response to my question to phil,

since you are now involved can you and phil answer this question if you and phil went down to your local shop one day and your local shopkeeper said i want to learn about god and i want to become a christian, and then he said i have a a hard time understanding Jesus is God would you both be helping him by saying unless you confess Jesus is god your going to hell,,
Its a case by case, deal.

Different people respond differently to varying methods and types of input...the bottom line being however you decide to deliver the message, just make sure that it gets delivered...
 
Q

Quickfire

Guest
Its a case by case, deal.

Different people respond differently to varying methods and types of input...the bottom line being however you decide to deliver the message, just make sure that it gets delivered...
i suppose that neither one of you get it because neither one of you have answered no,

mark 11.25 and when you stand and pray forgive anything you have against someone so that your farther in heaven will forgive the wrongs you have done.

mark 2.8 at once jesus knew what they where saying and thinking jesus said its easier to say to this man your sins are forgiven.

its not ok to tell person there sole is doomed phil , the enemy make a worried mind worry more, its not ok to frighten people that way, its not ok to say to some one your not a christian,

you show unbelievers the scriptures if they still dont believe you ask them why, you talk some more, at no point should you tell them your not a christian or your sole is doomed, you can however talk about the many great things Jesus did,

only the farther can make the decision of who is IN who is out, when the day of redemption comes.

I wish you both well and i hope that you can both see that i am trying to help here,
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,144
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I have spent abut an hour at the websites of Dr. Latayne Scott. Her website does not list the doctorate as far as I have seen. She is a professional Christian writer, who has written some theology. I looked through Dr. Swihart's thesis, and the basic lessons provided at the representational research website. As with your statements, I find several points of disagreement, such as there are four levels of faith response as documented by transpersonal psychology (and also Revelation), not three. I do not trust Swihart's idea that the third part of the person is linguistic/creative, and that soul encompasses the whole person, although perhaps with further study, I can resolve the problems, such as how one accounts for the shem in the survival of the person after death in Hebrew extra-biblical works (she does not appear to be aware of the Talmudic distinction of 5 parts at all). I also do not believe that her isomorphism between the trinity and grammatical structure is reconcilable with Jayne's work on the evolution of thought. I also find it odd that she neglect's Budge's work demonstrating eight parts to Egyptian soul/spirit complex. For her stated goal of proving a three-part soul, of course, such things are not necessary. But when the work is applied, such gaps need to be filled if the isomorphism is to be laid out correctly.

The biggest problem I see though, is that you are not representing the system accurately. The work uses Scripture to impose the trinitarian system on human thought, and that is fine as far as it goes. You appear to be assuming the work correct, and attempting to correct human thought based on the system. Swihart and Strawn both go to great pains to demonstrate the truth of their isomorphism from human experience. Since this is done, as I said before, it is a contradiction for you to use the work assuming that it is a prioi true, and then try to use the work to prove the priority of Scripture over experience. The work itself has been proved by experience, so that makes it a circular argument. It's the same question as, "how can you say the Bible tells the revelation of God in a way superior to the thoughts of men, if men determined what books went in the Bible?" Experience with other books that had been written about God is what led men to the selection of these books as superior (the traiditonal term is inspired), so the selection itself of the representation of revelation by written word was interactive.

It concerns me that I have not been able to bring up any links to either Strawn (except the website) or to Swihart. It is most unusual for doctorates in every field not to have a webpage provided by the college at which they teach. I do not have a doctorate, and I am retired except for online work, but a search of my name (once limited to the cities listed on my website) easily brings up proofs of the music and mathematics I have taught, my copyright holdings, etc.






Here is the URL address for Latayne's web site on representational studies. There will be links to Dr. Strawn's work and others as well. Dr. Scott and Dr. Strawn are the only to whom I know personally. I have known Latayne for only twelve years but I have known and worked with Dr. Strawn for more than twenty years.

Simply because you examine someone's work on representationalism, do not assume that there is any connection between what they have done and what we are doing. Most representational researchers begin with human reason as the starting point and attempt to view scripture through the lens on human reason and experience. We begin with the grammatical structure of the text. This is a completely different ballgame. Our ideas and concepts do not come from the rationalization of human experience being forced onto the biblical text. They are generalized from the text and human experience is then weighed against that metric. This is not the same thing at all.