Is Jesus God?

[Quickfire]

I John 2:27 proves it is not a no-no. I stated in my first response, that Jesus is God in Greek, Latin and English, but not in Hebrew. This realization came after Scripture was written (ca. 350AD), and is true in my first language and several others I read. It follows from Scripture by understanding who God is, who Jesus is, all of which I learned from Scripture and the Holy Spirit. Reflecting on the language, I can see Jesus is who we call God in certain languages and not in others. My argument here is that since it is not true in all languages, I can understand why some cannot accept it, and we must refine our understanding, so it works for all people.

nope i dont buy into that drama sorry, , i can not see your argument as a valid reason for some one to think that Jesus is not God. I can for other reasons but not yours,

 

[phil36]

It is simple Ken, the whole NT is in Hebrew in a few translations..and thousands upo thousands of Hebrew speakers believe the scripture teach them Jesus is God...

So here we are,, If Hebrew speakers can see that scripture teaches Jesus is God, why can't you or are they wrong and Kenisyes is correct?

I still sand by what I said.. and what I said in earlier posts. Atleast a Devils advocate tries to validate, your causing confusion..which is not good. It's not rocket science.

 

[phil36]

I quoted that the other day. And pointed out the difference in vs. 14.

[h=2]Chapter 1[/h][TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]בְּרֵאשִׁית הָיָה הַדָּבָר וְהַדָּבָר הָיָה אֵת הָאֱלׂהִים וֵאלׂהִים הָיָה הַדָּבָר׃
[/TD]
[TD="width: 2%"]א
[/TD]
[TD="width: 2%"]1
[/TD]
[TD="width: 46%"]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]הוּא הָיָה בְרֵאשִׁית אֵת הָאֱלׂהִים׃
[/TD]
[TD]ב
[/TD]
[TD]2
[/TD]
[TD="width: 46%"]The same was in the beginning with God.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]הַכּׂל נִהְיָה עַל־יָדוֹ וּמִבַּלְעָדָיו לׂא נִהְיָה כָּל־אֲשֶׁר נִהְיָה׃
[/TD]
[TD]ג
[/TD]
[TD]3
[/TD]
[TD="width: 46%"]All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]בּוֹ הָיוּ חַיִּים וְהַחַיִּים הָיוּ אוֹר לִבְנֵי הָאָדָם׃
[/TD]
[TD]ד
[/TD]
[TD]4
[/TD]
[TD="width: 46%"]In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]וְהָאוֹר הֵאִיר בַּחשֶׁךְ וְהַחשֶׁךְ לׂא הִשִּׂיגוֹ׃
[/TD]
[TD]ה
[/TD]
[TD]5
[/TD]
[TD="width: 46%"]And the light shineth in the darkness; and the darkness apprehended it not.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]וַיְהִי אִישׁ שָׁלוּחַ מֵאֵת הָאֱלׂהִים וּשְׁמוֹ יוֹחָנָן׃
[/TD]
[TD]ו
[/TD]
[TD]6
[/TD]
[TD="width: 46%"]There came a man, sent from God, whose name was John.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]הוּא בָא לְעֵדוּת לְהָעִיד עַל־הָאוֹר לְמַעַן יַאֲמִינוּ כֻלָּם עַל־יָדוֹ׃
[/TD]
[TD]ז
[/TD]
[TD]7
[/TD]
[TD="width: 46%"]The same came for witness, that he might bear witness of the light, that all might believe through him.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]הוּא לׂא־הָיָה הָאוֹר כִּי אִם־לְהָעִיד עַל־הָאוֹר׃
[/TD]
[TD]ח
[/TD]
[TD]8
[/TD]
[TD="width: 46%"]He was not the light, but came that he might bear witness of the light.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]הָאוֹר הָאֲמִתִּי הַמֵּאִיר לְכָל־אָדָם אֲשֶׁר בָא אֶל־הָעוֹלָם׃
[/TD]
[TD]ט
[/TD]
[TD]9
[/TD]
[TD="width: 46%"]There was the true light, even the light which lighteth every man, coming into the world.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]בָּעוֹלָם הָיָה וְעַל־יָדוֹ נִהְיָה הָעוֹלָם וְהָעוֹלָם לׂא יְדָעוֹ׃
[/TD]
[TD]י
[/TD]
[TD]10
[/TD]
[TD="width: 46%"]He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world knew him not.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]הוּא בָא בְּשֶׁלּוֹ וַאֲשֶׁר־הֵמָּה לוֹ לׂא קִבְּלֻהוּ׃
[/TD]
[TD]יא
[/TD]
[TD]11
[/TD]
[TD="width: 46%"]He came unto his own, and they that were his own received him not.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]וְהַמְקַבְּלִים אׂתוֹ הַמַּאֲמִינִים בִּשְׁמוֹ נָתַן־עׂז לָמוֹ לִהְיוֹת בָּנִים לֵאלׂהִים׃
[/TD]
[TD]יב
[/TD]
[TD]12
[/TD]
[TD="width: 46%"]But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name:
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]אֲשֶׁר לׂא מִדָּם וְלׂא מֵחֵפֶץ הַבָּשָׂר אַף לׂא־מֵחֵפֶץ גֶּבֶר נוֹלָדוּ כִּי אִם־מֵאֱלׂהִים׃
[/TD]
[TD]יג
[/TD]
[TD]13
[/TD]
[TD="width: 46%"]who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]וְהַדָּבָר נִהְיָה בָשָׂר וַיִּשְׁכּׂן בְּתוֹכֵנוּ וַנֶּחֱזֶה כְבוֹדוֹ כִּכְבוֹד בֵּן יָחִיד לְאָבִיו רַב־חֶסֶד וֶאֱמֶת׃
[/TD]
[TD]יד
[/TD]
[TD]14
[/TD]
[TD="width: 46%"]And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[GreenNnice]

nope i dont buy into that drama sorry, , i can not see your argument as a valid reason for some one to think that Jesus is not God. I can for other reasons but not yours,

The Lord leads, God, germinate on His will and way for your life, firingquick
-------
kinny really believes 'Jesus is God,' philly

post #131

kinny

I almost thought you had a proof until I looked it up. NOthing in Revelation says it is Jesus speaking. The verse itself says it is the Lord God speaking, and that title could just be the translation from the Hebrew of Adonai Elohim, a perfect title of God the Father. In context, John writes this to say that Jesus is the means by which the Father, who wa first, completes salvation, and thus is last.

You can't get it from Is. 44:6 either, because God is the redeemer of Israel (through the red sea) and Jesus is the redeemer of the world (through the cross).

 

[phil36]

Hi GreenNnice,

I know I read where he said that, but his whole argument is sheer nonsense and causes more confusion, especially with so many posting that Jesus is not God.. and especially when he is saying there is no category for 'Jesus is God' in Hebrew when it is plainly clear that Hebrew speakers can read all of scripture in Hebrew the same way we can in English and conclude that in fact Jesus is God.

 

[directline2iam]

Well quite simple read the Hebrew translation (yes the NT)...I would have thought that very obvious wouldn't you? or why not ask just one of the thousands of Christian Hebrew speakers? I still stand by what I have said.


BTW I have read all the posts.

My apologies to you if I have offended you in any way. Being of such higher intelligence than me I thought you would have at the least understood my plain SIMPLE english. lol

 

[phil36]

My apologies to you if I have offended you in any way. Being of such higher intelligence than me I thought you would have at the least understood my plain SIMPLE english. lol

Hi Directline,

No offence taken or was it given. But since you inferred that I had not read all the posts I assumed you had, in which case you would have read what I had already wrote.

 

[Water1944]

Yes yes and yes Father,Son and Holy spirit

 

[Quickfire]

The Lord leads, God, germinate on His will and way for your life, firingquick
-------
kinny really believes 'Jesus is God,' philly

post #131

kinny

I have many prayers the biggest one is that a topic like this does not divide, I have explained alot about this already in my salvation thread, I know many denoms believe Jesus is the way but dont believe Jesus is God , there is no shame in admitting it, Farther God please bless this topic with understanding amen.

I suppose to if there is many rumors around the net why people do not believe, and your seeking to know the truth because your unsure, because your faith does not think he was, i suppose you could quite easily believe all the reasons why people also do not believe it gets confusing. To ask for understanding is one thing but to ask for putting some one on the spot is another. im not puttng kenny on the spot over this im just saying that this thing he has mentioned sounds like a wicked rumors and one i feel he should not be getting invovled in

 

[Bowman]

Hi Kenisyes,

Why do you feel the need to come up with something that you obviously can't do actually do not need to do. As Is aid before there tens of thousands of Hebrew speakers who believe Jesus is God.

It is not hard to call Jesus God in any Language... It's 'GOD' (in whatever language.

If you are talking to Messianic Jews then point them to those who actually do know. I take it you do yell them that most of the OT quotes in the NT re from the LXX (Greek translation of the Torah started in the 3rd century).

When there are so many on here denying who Jesus is, you do not help by trying to argue about something you don't seem to know anything about, you certainly talk a lot but its not adding up to anything other than causing confusion... scripture I not confused.. you are!

To be honest if this is where your 1 mile (20 years) has lead you, I don't want to go there. double mindedness is not scriptural.

Hi Phil,

That's just the way Ken is....He contorts scripture more painfully than Unitarians do....all for the sake of who knows what...take it from me, he eventually gives up when you don't come around to his unreferenced and meritless assertions. He's more into making assertions for the shock factor...

 

[kenisyes]

Hi Phil,

That's just the way Ken is....He contorts scripture more painfully than Unitarians do....all for the sake of who knows what...take it from me, he eventually gives up when you don't come around to his unreferenced and meritless assertions. He's more into making assertions for the shock factor...

I've been told there is no such thing as bad PR.

Do you know, we still have not answered the OP? We have a proof from the book of Hebrews, but not from the Gospels as requested.

 

[oldhermit]

I've been told there is no such thing as bad PR.

Do you know, we still have not answered the OP? We have a proof from the book of Hebrews, but not from the Gospels as requested.

There is no better proof in the gospels than John 1:1 from the point of grammar.

 

[kenisyes]

Hi GreenNnice,

I know I read where he said that, but his whole argument is sheer nonsense and causes more confusion, especially with so many posting that Jesus is not God.. and especially when he is saying there is no category for 'Jesus is God' in Hebrew when it is plainly clear that Hebrew speakers can read all of scripture in Hebrew the same way we can in English and conclude that in fact Jesus is God.

Tell you what Phil, since our posts are both pretty high compared to the average at CC, and our reps are equal (although you've been around more than 4 times as long as I have, why don't we compare likes received percentages to see who feels confused by what I say? (I can derail the thread talking about our perceived perceptions of others to posts, if you can.)

 

[kenisyes]

There is no better proof in the gospels than John 1:1 from the point of grammar.

As long as my objection stands alongside of it, to qualify the possible exception one might take, I agree. As far as I can tell, the writer of the OP has not responded on the matter, so we do not know if that is part of the source of his disbelief or not.

 

[phil36]

Tell you what Phil, since our posts are both pretty high compared to the average at CC, and our reps are equal (although you've been around more than 4 times as long as I have, why don't we compare likes received percentages to see who feels confused by what I say? (I can derail the thread talking about our perceived perceptions of others to posts, if you can.)

Hi Kenisyes,

Are you being serious? you sound like a 5 year old! I don't think the same way as you I am not in least bit interested in how many rep points I have, in fact I would prefer not to get any to be honest as it is an ego builder which you have just proven!


I think after re reading what you wrote, you will se you seem to have an ego problem!

 

[kenisyes]

Hi Kenisyes,

Are you being serious? you sound like a 5 year old! I don't think the same way as you I am not in least bit interested in how many rep points I have, in fact I would prefer not to get any to be honest as it is an ego builder which you have just proven!


I think after re reading what you wrote, you will se you seem to have an ego problem!

You were the one who proposed to speak for other people at CC, and their reaction. What I propose is that since they vote every day for what they do and don't like, we consult those ballots to help determine it. Otherwise, I agree with you, I don't care about mine either.

 

[oldhermit]

As long as my objection stands alongside of it, to qualify the possible exception one might take, I agree. As far as I can tell, the writer of the OP has not responded on the matter, so we do not know if that is part of the source of his disbelief or not.

No matter how you choose to understand ἐγένετο, it can never minimize the force of the predicate nominative in verse one. Virtually all scholars agree on this one point, John 1 is the most perfect theological statement ever made strictly from the point of grammar.

 

[phil36]

Hi Ken,

I have not spoken on behalf of those on cc. I'm afraid you do sound as if your big ego has taken a hit and now you sound like a small child who wants to shout 'I am better than you. And if you are not interested in 'how people view YOU' why resort to something school kids do. I am not in the least interested if you or anyone is more popular than me.

Anyhow I can't even believe I answered your childish (ego driven) post

 

[Quickfire]

Today i feel totaly discouraged, why because this topic is something that devides many people and it will never change unless people do, i have said all i need to say in my salvation thread about this subject, you should all be ashamed of your selves who call your selfs christians to attack other people faith this way for a topic that many people are innocently unsure about.
And its not just this topic its many others, conspiracies, hatred, bullies mentally sick peope, people forcing there believes and people wanting other people to come round to there way of thinking at what ever cost to everyone else.
people who are hert and lost come here, some get saved and get better but others leave with there heads a mess, because of sick head messing people who wants spread there hatred onto the world, what a mess and unless you people stop blaming others for stuff your never going to change, make the change stop blaming others and pointing the finger with your sick conspiring theories and keep the change, Except jesus into your life, live your life and enjoy your life, spread the good news, jump up in the air and shout out i love jesus, do anything knock on someones door, a strangers door tell them your love jesus, dont be shy. shout it in the middle of the street and fear no man or women shout it out loud iin side a busy super market or a busy town centre shout it out as loud as you can SHOUT jesus loves me and fear no man

 

[kenisyes]

No matter how you choose to understand ἐγένετο, it can never minimize the force of the predicate nominative in verse one. Virtually all scholars agree on this one point, John 1 is the most perfect theological statement ever made strictly from the point of grammar.

I agree with that too. The problem pivots on "virtually". I guess my math training makes me want tighter proofs. And there is the problem of people questioning this so much the last couple of decades.